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Thread: US presidency elections 2004

  1. #26
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    Tell me why you think the war is unjustified?
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  2. #27
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    By the way if Bush is manipulating the american media then he is doing a poor job of it when the nightly headlines on CBS,ABC, NBC, NY Times, Washington Post, CNN, MSNBC,LA times read every night 1 more person dies in Vietnam style quagmire. Yes we are in a ******* war, people die in wars.
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  3. #28
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    I tried writing and explaining, but i have come to the conclusion it is better to leave this to those who are better at it.

    Noam Chomsky is somebody I agree with wholeheartedly on this issue.

    Here is a link to some recent essays of his.
    http://monkeyfist.com/ChomskyArchive/essays
    Now instead of posting about how the linguist professor should stick to his trade, please try to fight his stance with arguments. If you can, id be very interested.

    Also, the entire run upto the war was fake. I have a book by Willem Oltmans, published before 2000, in which he describes in detail how the Iraq war will happen
    Last edited by Reinier; 11-02-2003 at 05:47 AM.

  4. #29
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    This an article of his from 1997, from another website, that I find very good:

    Part of the reason why I write about the media is because I am interested in the whole intellectual culture, and the part of it that is easiest to study is the media. It comes out every day. You can do a systematic investigation. You can compare yesterdayís version to todayís version. There is a lot of evidence about whatís played up and what isnít and the way things are structured.

    My impression is the media arenít very different from scholarship or from, say, journals of intellectual opinionóthere are some extra constraintsóbut itís not radically different. They interact, which is why people go up and back quite easily among them.

    You look at the media, or at any institution you want to understand. You ask questions about its internal institutional structure. You want to know something about their setting in the broader society. How do they relate to other systems of power and authority? If youíre lucky, there is an internal record from leading people in the information system which tells you what they are up to (it is sort of a doctrinal system). That doesnít mean the public relations handouts but what they say to each other about what they are up to. There is quite a lot of interesting documentation.

    Those are three major sources of information about the nature of the media. You want to study them the way, say, a scientist would study some complex molecule or something. You take a look at the structure and then make some hypothesis based on the structure as to what the media product is likely to look like. Then you investigate the media product and see how well it conforms to the hypotheses. Virtually all work in media analysis is this last partótrying to study carefully just what the media product is and whether it conforms to obvious assumptions about the nature and structure of the media.

    Well, what do you find? First of all, you find that there are different media which do different things, like the entertainment/Hollywood, soap operas, and so on, or even most of the newspapers in the country (the overwhelming majority of them). They are directing the mass audience.

    There is another sector of the media, the elite media, sometimes called the agenda-setting media because they are the ones with the big resources, they set the framework in which everyone else operates. The New York Times and CBS, that kind of thing. Their audience is mostly privileged people. The people who read the New York Timesópeople who are wealthy or part of what is sometimes called the political classóthey are actually involved in the political system in an ongoing fashion. They are basically managers of one sort or another. They can be political managers, business managers (like corporate executives or that sort of thing), doctoral managers (like university professors), or other journalists who are involved in organizing the way people think and look at things.

    The elite media set a framework within which others operate. If you are watching the Associated Press, who grind out a constant flow of news, in the mid-afternoon it breaks and there is something that comes along every day that says "Notice to Editors: Tomorrowís New York Times is going to have the following stories on the front page." The point of that is, if youíre an editor of a newspaper in Dayton, Ohio and you donít have the resources to figure out what the news is, or you donít want to think about it anyway, this tells you what the news is. These are the stories for the quarter page that you are going to devote to something other than local affairs or diverting your audience. These are the stories that you put there because thatís what the New York Times tells us is what youíre supposed to care about tomorrow. If you are an editor in Dayton, Ohio, you would sort of have to do that, because you donít have much else in the way of resources. If you get off line, if youíre producing stories that the big press doesnít like, youíll hear about it pretty soon. In fact, what just happened at San Jose Mercury News is a dramatic example of this. So there are a lot of ways in which power plays can drive you right back into line if you move out. If you try to break the mold, youíre not going to last long. That framework works pretty well, and it is understandable that it is just a reflection of obvious power structures.

    The real mass media are basically trying to divert people. Let them do something else, but donít bother us (us being the people who run the show). Let them get interested in professional sports, for example. Let everybody be crazed about professional sports or sex scandals or the personalities and their problems or something like that. Anything, as long as it isnít serious. Of course, the serious stuff is for the big guys. "We" take care of that.

    What are the elite media, the agenda-setting ones? The New York Times and CBS, for example. Well, first of all, they are major, very profitable, corporations. Furthermore, most of them are either linked to, or outright owned by, much bigger corporations, like General Electric, Westinghouse, and so on. They are way up at the top of the power structure of the private economy which is a very tyrannical structure. Corporations are basically tyrannies, hierarchic, controled from above. If you donít like what they are doing you get out. The major media are just part of that system.

    What about their institutional setting? Well, thatís more or less the same. What they interact with and relate to is other major power centersóthe government, other corporations, or the universities. Because the media are a doctrinal system they interact closely with the universities. Say you are a reporter writing a story on Southeast Asia or Africa, or something like that. Youíre supposed to go over to the big university and find an expert who will tell you what to write, or else go to one of the foundations, like Brookings Institute or American Enterprise Institute and they will give you the words to say. These outside institutions are very similar to the media.

    The universities, for example, are not independent institutions. There may be independent people scattered around in them but that is true of the media as well. And itís generally true of corporations. Itís true of Fascist states, for that matter. But the institution itself is parasitic. Itís dependent on outside sources of support and those sources of support, such as private wealth, big corporations with grants, and the government (which is so closely interlinked with corporate power you can barely distinguish them), they are essentially what the universities are in the middle of. People within them, who donít adjust to that structure, who donít accept it and internalize it (you canít really work with it unless you internalize it, and believe it); people who donít do that are likely to be weeded out along the way, starting from kindergarten, all the way up. There are all sorts of filtering devices to get rid of people who are a pain in the neck and think independently. Those of you who have been through college know that the educational system is very highly geared to rewarding conformity and obedience; if you donít do that, you are a troublemaker. So, it is kind of a filtering device which ends up with people who really honestly (they arenít lying) internalize the framework of belief and attitudes of the surrounding power system in the society. The elite institutions like, say, Harvard and Princeton and the small upscale colleges, for example, are very much geared to socialization. If you go through a place like Harvard, most of what goes on there is teaching manners; how to behave like a member of the upper classes, how to think the right thoughts, and so on.

    If youíve read George Orwellís Animal Farm which he wrote in the mid-1940s, it was a satire on the Soviet Union, a totalitarian state. It was a big hit. Everybody loved it. Turns out he wrote an introduction to Animal Farm which was suppressed. It only appeared 30 years later. Someone had found it in his papers. The introduction to Animal Farm was about "Literary Censorship in England" and what it says is that obviously this book is ridiculing the Soviet Union and its totalitarian structure. But he said England is not all that different. We donít have the KGB on our neck, but the end result comes out pretty much the same. People who have independent ideas or who think the wrong kind of thoughts are cut out.

    He talks a little, only two sentences, about the institutional structure. He asks, why does this happen? Well, one, because the press is owned by wealthy people who only want certain things to reach the public. The other thing he says is that when you go through the elite education system, when you go through the proper schools in Oxford, you learn that there are certain things itís not proper to say and there are certain thoughts that are not proper to have. That is the socialization role of elite institutions and if you donít adapt to that, youíre usually out. Those two sentences more or less tell the story.

    When you critique the media and you say, look, here is what Anthony Lewis or somebody else is writing, they get very angry. They say, quite correctly, "nobody ever tells me what to write. I write anything I like. All this business about pressures and constraints is nonsense because Iím never under any pressure." Which is completely true, but the point is that they wouldnít be there unless they had already demonstrated that nobody has to tell them what to write because they are going say the right thing. If they had started off at the Metro desk, or something, and had pursued the wrong kind of stories, they never would have made it to the positions where they can now say anything they like. The same is mostly true of university faculty in the more ideological disciplines. They have been through the socialization system.

    Okay, you look at the structure of that whole system. What do you expect the news to be like? Well, itís pretty obvious. Take the New York Times. Itís a corporation and sells a product. The product is audiences. They donít make money when you buy the newspaper. They are happy to put it on the worldwide web for free. They actually lose money when you buy the newspaper. But the audience is the product. The product is privileged people, just like the people who are writing the newspapers, you know, top-level decision-making people in society. You have to sell a product to a market, and the market is, of course, advertisers (that is, other businesses). Whether it is television or newspapers, or whatever, they are selling audiences. Corporations sell audiences to other corporations. In the case of the elite media, itís big businesses.

    Well, what do you expect to happen? What would you predict about the nature of the media product, given that set of circumstances? What would be the null hypothesis, the kind of conjecture that youíd make assuming nothing further. The obvious assumption is that the product of the media, what appears, what doesnít appear, the way it is slanted, will reflect the interest of the buyers and sellers, the institutions, and the power systems that are around them. If that wouldnít happen, it would be kind of a miracle.

    Okay, then comes the hard work. You ask, does it work the way you predict? Well, you can judge for yourselves. Thereís lots of material on this obvious hypothesis, which has been subjected to the hardest tests anybody can think of, and still stands up remarkably well. You virtually never find anything in the social sciences that so strongly supports any conclusion, which is not a big surprise, because it would be miraculous if it didnít hold up given the way the forces are operating.

    The next thing you discover is that this whole topic is completely taboo. If you go to the Kennedy School of Government or Stanford, or somewhere, and you study journalism and communications or academic political science, and so on, these questions are not likely to appear. That is, the hypothesis that anyone would come across without even knowing anything that is not allowed to be expressed, and the evidence bearing on it cannot be discussed. Well, you predict that too. If you look at the institutional structure, you would say, yeah, sure, thatís got to happen because why should these guys want to be exposed? Why should they allow critical analysis of what they are up to take place? The answer is, there is no reason why they should allow that and, in fact, they donít. Again, it is not purposeful censorship. It is just that you donít make it to those positions. That includes the left (what is called the left), as well as the right. Unless you have been adequately socialized and trained so that there are some thoughts you just donít have, because if you did have them, you wouldnít be there. So you have a second order of prediction which is that the first order of prediction is not allowed into the discussion.

    The last thing to look at is the doctrinal framework in which this proceeds. Do people at high levels in the information system, including the media and advertising and academic political science and so on, do these people have a picture of what ought to happen when they are writing for each other (not when they are making graduation speeches)? When you make a commencement speech, it is pretty words and stuff. But when they are writing for one another, what do people say about it?

    There are basically three currents to look at. One is the public relations industry, you know, the main business propaganda industry. So what are the leaders of the PR industry saying? Second place to look is at what are called public intellectuals, big thinkers, people who write the "op eds" and that sort of thing. What do they say? The people who write impressive books about the nature of democracy and that sort of business. The third thing you look at is the academic stream, particularly that part of political science which is concerned with communications and information and that stuff which has been a branch of political science for the last 70 or 80 years.

    So, look at those three things and see what they say, and look at the leading figures who have written about this. They all say (Iím partly quoting), the general population is "ignorant and meddlesome outsiders." We have to keep them out of the public arena because they are too stupid and if they get involved they will just make trouble. Their job is to be "spectators," not "participants."

    They are allowed to vote every once in a while, pick out one of us smart guys. But then they are supposed to go home and do something else like watch football or whatever it may be. But the "ignorant and meddlesome outsiders" have to be observers not participants. The participants are what are called the "responsible men" and, of course, the writer is always one of them. You never ask the question, why am I a "responsible man" and somebody else is in jail? The answer is pretty obvious. Itís because you are obedient and subordinate to power and that other person may be independent, and so on. But you donít ask, of course. So there are the smart guys who are supposed to run the show and the rest of them are supposed to be out, and we should not succumb to (Iím quoting from an academic article) "democratic dogmatisms about men being the best judges of their own interest." They are not. They are terrible judges of their own interests so we have do it for them for their own benefit.

    Actually, it is very similar to Leninism. We do things for you and we are doing it in the interest of everyone, and so on. I suspect thatís part of the reason why itís been so easy historically for people to shift up and back from being, sort of enthusiastic Stalinists to being big supporters of U.S. power. People switch very quickly from one position to the other, and my suspicion is that itís because basically it is the same position. Youíre not making much of a switch. Youíre just making a different estimate of where power lies. One point you think itís here, another point you think itís there. You take the same position.

    @PAR SUB = How did all this evolve? It has an interesting history. A lot of it comes out of the first World War, which is a big turning point. It changed the position of the United States in the world considerably. In the 18th century the U.S. was already the richest place in the world. The quality of life, health, and longevity was not achieved by the upper classes in Britain until the early 20th century, let alone anybody else in the world. The U.S. was extraordinarily wealthy, with huge advantages, and, by the end of the 19th century, it had by far the biggest economy in the world. But it was not a big player on the world scene. U.S. power extended to the Caribbean Islands, parts of the Pacific, but not much farther.

    During the first World War, the relations changed. And they changed more dramatically during the second World War. After the second World War the U.S. more or less took over the world. But after first World War there was already a change and the U.S. shifted from being a debtor to a creditor nation. It wasnít huge, like Britain, but it became a substantial actor in the world for the first time. That was one change, but there were other changes.

    The first World War was the first time there was highly organized state propaganda. The British had a Ministry of Information, and they really needed it because they had to get the U.S. into the war or else they were in bad trouble. The Ministry of Information was mainly geared to sending propaganda, including huge fabrications about "Hun" atrocities, and so on. They were targeting American intellectuals on the reasonable assumption that these are the people who are most gullible and most likely to believe propaganda. They are also the ones that disseminate it through their own system. So it was mostly geared to American intellectuals and it worked very well. The British Ministry of Information documents (a lot have been released) show their goal was, as they put it, to control the thought of the entire world, a minor goal, but mainly the U.S. They didnít care much what people thought in India. This Ministry of Information was extremely successful in deluding hot shot American intellectuals into accepting British propaganda fabrications. They were very proud of that. Properly so, it saved their lives. They would have lost the first World War otherwise.

    In the U.S., there was a counterpart. Woodrow Wilson was elected in 1916 on an anti-war platform. The U.S. was a very pacifist country. It has always been. People donít want to go fight foreign wars. The country was very much opposed to the first World War and Wilson was, in fact, elected on an anti-war position. "Peace without victory" was the slogan. But he was intending to go to war. So the question was, how do you get the pacifist population to become raving anti-German lunatics so they want to go kill all the Germans? That requires propaganda. So they set up the first and really only major state propaganda agency in U.S. history. The Committee on Public Information it was called (nice Orwellian title), called also the Creel Commission. The guy who ran it was named Creel. The task of this commission was to propagandize the population into a jingoist hysteria. It worked incredibly well. Within a few months there was a raving war hysteria and the U.S. was able to go to war.

    A lot of people were impressed by these achievements. One person impressed, and this had some implications for the future, was Hitler. If you read Mein Kampf, he concludes, with some justification, that Germany lost the first World War because it lost the propaganda battle. They could not begin to compete with British and American propaganda which absolutely overwhelmed them. He pledges that next time around theyíll have their own propaganda system, which they did during the second World War. More important for us, the American business community was also very impressed with the propaganda effort. They had a problem at that time. The country was becoming formally more democratic. A lot more people were able to vote and that sort of thing. The country was becoming wealthier and more people could participate and a lot of new immigrants were coming in, and so on.

    So what do you do? Itís going to be harder to run things as a private club. Therefore, obviously, you have to control what people think. There had been public relation specialists but there was never a public relations industry. There was a guy hired to make Rockefellerís image look prettier and that sort of thing. But this huge public relations industry, which is a U.S. invention and a monstrous industry, came out of the first World War. The leading figures were people in the Creel Commission. In fact, the main one, Edward Bernays, comes right out of the Creel Commission. He has a book that came out right afterwards called Propaganda. The term "propaganda," incidentally, did not have negative connotations in those days. It was during the second World War that the term became taboo because it was connected with Germany, and all those bad things. But in this period, the term propaganda just meant information or something like that. So he wrote a book called Propaganda around 1925, and it starts off by saying he is applying the lessons of the first World War. The propaganda system of the first World War and this commission that he was part of showed, he says, it is possible to "regiment the public mind every bit as much as an army regiments their bodies." These new techniques of regimentation of minds, he said, had to be used by the intelligent minorities in order to make sure that the slobs stay on the right course. We can do it now because we have these new techniques.

    This is the main manual of the public relations industry. Bernays is kind of the guru. He was an authentic Roosevelt/Kennedy liberal. He also engineered the public relations effort behind the U.S.-backed coup which overthrew the democratic government of Guatemala.

    His major coup, the one that really propelled him into fame in the late 1920s, was getting women to smoke. Women didnít smoke in those days and he ran huge campaigns for Chesterfield. You know all the techniquesómodels and movie stars with cigarettes coming out of their mouths and that kind of thing. He got enormous praise for that. So he became a leading figure of the industry, and his book was the real manual.



    Another member of the Creel Commission was Walter Lippmann, the most respected figure in American journalism for about half a century (I mean serious American journalism, serious think pieces). He also wrote what are called progressive essays on democracy, regarded as progressive back in the 1920s. He was, again, applying the lessons of the work on propaganda very explicitly. He says there is a new art in democracy called manufacture of consent. That is his phrase. Edward Herman and I borrowed it for our book, but it comes from Lippmann. So, he says, there is this new art in the method of democracy, "manufacture of consent." By manufacturing consent, you can overcome the fact that formally a lot of people have the right to vote. We can make it irrelevant because we can manufacture consent and make sure that their choices and attitudes will be structured in such a way that they will always do what we tell them, even if they have a formal way to participate. So weíll have a real democracy. It will work properly. Thatís applying the lessons of the propaganda agency.

    Academic social science and political science comes out of the same thing. The founder of whatís called communications and academic political science is Harold Glasswell. His main achievement was a book, a study of propaganda. He says, very frankly, the things I was quoting beforeóthose things about not succumbing to democratic dogmatism, that comes from academic political science (Lasswell and others). Again, drawing the lessons from the war time experience, political parties drew the same lessons, especially the conservative party in England. Their early documents, just being released, show they also recognized the achievements of the British Ministry of Information. They recognized that the country was getting more democratized and it wouldnít be a private menís club. So the conclusion was, as they put it, politics has to become political warfare, applying the mechanisms of propaganda that worked so brilliantly during the first World War towards controlling peopleís thoughts.

    Thatís the doctrinal side and it coincides with the institutional structure. It strengthens the predictions about the way the thing should work. And the predictions are well confirmed. But these conclusions, also, are not allowed to be discussed. This is all now part of mainstream literature but it is only for people on the inside. When you go to college, you donít read the classics about how to control peoples minds.

    Just like you donít read what James Madison said during the constitutional convention about how the main goal of the new system has to be "to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority," and has to be designed so that it achieves that end. This is the founding of the constitutional system, so nobody studies it. You canít even find it in the academic scholarship unless you really look hard.

    That is roughly the picture, as I see it, of the way the system is institutionally, the doctrines that lie behind it, the way it comes out. There is another part directed to the "ignorant meddlesome" outsiders. That is mainly using diversion of one kind or another. From that, I think, you can predict what you would expect to find.

  5. #30
    Banned Reinier's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Budiak
    So Reinier, being elected president according to the rules of our country's founding documents is equal to stealing an election? I...I'm confused.
    no buying it

  6. #31
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    I have neither time nor interest in reading that enormous article. Why don't you state why you believe the war is unjustified and I'll attempt to respond to your criticisms

  7. #32
    Banned Reinier's Avatar
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    if you have no time or interest in reading that article, maybe you shouldn`t even be talking about politics as perhaps you dont care enough to really think about it. that article makes an important point that i havent read as clearly anywhere else and is imo evidently valid. I need to write an article for tomorrow, ill bring this thread back up later, im not scribbling back, have work to do today

  8. #33
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    Why don't you really think and formulate arguments on your own instead of relying someone else to argue for you. Provide your own evidence. For example we were justified to go into this war because Saddam Hussein had repeatedly ignored UN resolutions on disclosure of WMDs for nearly a decade. Everyone repeat everyone knows he had WMDs. The question is where did they go and how long before he would have used them. He was willing to gas his own people killing hundreds of thousands of them and he was willing to attack Kuwait. He was actively seeking to buy weapons grade plutonium and would have eventually used it. See Reinier it's not so hard. Make an argument provide evidence. Response?
    Last edited by noodlearms; 11-02-2003 at 06:25 AM.
    The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.
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  9. #34
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    Originally posted by noodlearms
    Tell me why you think the war is unjustified?
    Iraq had had biological and chemical weapons since the early 1980's. They did not develop these weapons themselves, the materials and technology were supplied by the US government, along with Britain and private corporations. When Iraq used gas warfare against Iran, did the American Government condamn this action? No. In 1988, Saddam Huissein killed 5,000 people in the Kurdisch town of Halabja using gas, but none of the western countries condamned this action.
    The U.S. used 17 million gallons of Agent Orange in Vietnam (Agent Orange contains Dioxin, the most powerfull artificial poison there is).
    After the Gulf War, the U.S. left 40 tons of depleted Uranium behind in Iraq and Kuweit. According to the UN, the increase of cancer rates in Iraq between 1991 and 1994 was 700%.
    America claimed to have destroyed 80% of Iraq's military capacity in 1991.
    Saddam didn't order the inspectors out of Iraq. There were 300 inspecters, but only 5 encountered problems. They were even allowed in the Ba'ath HQ.
    In 1998 how much of Iraq's post 1991 capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction did the UN weapons
    inspectors claim to have discovered and dismantled?
    -90%

    FInally, does Iraq present more of world threat than 10 years ago? Absolutely not.

    Between 1979 and the Gulf War, Saddam Huissein increased the average Iraqi livingstandard. So, the Iraqi people are much more likely to contribute their current state of affairs to the Western World, as to Saddam, the 'tyrant.' The effect of the sanctions were that the Iraqi saw Saddam as their 'Fighter for freedom' against the Western Imperialism, making him more and more populair, much to the contrary of the generally accepted western argument that the sanctions would weaken Saddam and eventually topple his government.
    The sanctions included many essential medicines for the survival of newbornes.
    What was the child death rate in Iraq in 1989 (per
    1,000 births)?
    -12
    What was the estimated child death rate in Iraq in
    1999 (per 1,000 births)?
    -131
    Another chemical forbidden by UN Sanctions: Chloride, which can be used to produce a very primitive gas, but also essential to clean water.
    1,5 million Iraqis are estimated to have died by
    October 1999 as a result of UN sanctions.
    750.000 children are estimated to have died by 1997 due to UN sanctions.

    Who do you think has killed more Iraqis over the past 25 years. Saddam? Or the Western World?

    And now, America is (was) again at war with Iraq. Why? Because big corporations benefit. Because Iraq has the second largest oil reserves. You really think it's moral which made Bush go to war? There are millions and millions of Asians making sure we can consume, consume, consume, consume, consume. No jobs from 9 to 5 my friend, slaverywork. More than 90 hours of work a week for little. Forced overtime, which isn't payed. We know, but we don't do anything, because we benefit.
    Does Bush care about the people Iraq? Do we? Do you?
    Has all this werstern foreign policy concerning Iraq helped the Iraqi people? No, and i'm sure, they won't benefit from it now, or in the future.
    I don't think this war is justified.
    I LOVE TECHNO

  10. #35
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    Israel and the US both broke many many more UN sanctions than Iraq. and the sanctions on iraq were downright unreasonable

  11. #36
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    Dont you guys worry , the US will keep this world safe for the rest of you .

    You people dont even understand why we went in . You and all of the countries represented here signed 14 resolutions saying " we will come in there if you dont show us what you did " . 14 times... and when it came time to act you guys are whining . You are a country of talkers plain and simple .

    Rienier-- "ok saddam dont do it again "

    Saddam --" I wont " (he does it again )

    Rienier--" I said dont "

    saddam" I promise I wont" ( he does it again)

    Rienier--" I'm for real this time ... DONT"

    saddam --" ok ok that was the last time " ( he does it again )

    Rienier " didnt you hear me I said dont ?"

    saddam does it ten more times over the next 10 years .

    Rienier " i swear to god I'm serious this time ... stop it saddam "

    United States " strp back you little bitch we will handle this "

    Rienier " stop it US you guys are mean ."


    I just simplified how much of a bunch of talkers the world has become , you dont have the ideas and the mettle to do what needs to be done . You should be ashamed that your forefathers did what needed to be done while you sit around and get treated like a bunch of bitches .

    Above illustrates the 14 plus resolutions for saddam to disclose what he had and when he lied for 12 years and led you on your time came to act and you stood around with you thumb up your a$$ .

    Hans is so stupid he thinks that we dont know that with the sanctions saddam kept whatever he hadfor himself and didnt give a rats ass if his people died or not . HE had the power to have everything in his country they needed .

    Hans -- " lets give saddam back everything he needs to make anything since he's killing his people , and he really is a nice guy "
    What a dope .
    Give me your broken , give me your beaten ... I will build them up , I will lead them ... to the threshhold . Make you stronger , make you believe .

  12. #37
    Banned Reinier's Avatar
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    Wrong... the assault on saddam never ended since the first gulf war. weekly bombings never stopped, sanctions got stricter and stricter. Saddam was told to get out, or get thrown out, basically. There was no reasonable offer that he neglected.

    Lets not go around calling each other stupid, Its rather sad this whole board of patriot americans cant seem to argue this with 2 dutch 17 yr old schoolboys, speaking in a foreign language, without getting abusive.
    Last edited by Reinier; 11-02-2003 at 07:34 AM.

  13. #38
    Senior Member Exnor's Avatar
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    Here we go again *sigh*

    Please remember what the topic was about...

  14. #39
    Banned Reinier's Avatar
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    Well, it seems pretty darn relevant to the topic to me.

    but for some other arguments id like to hear a response too:

    Bush gave a speech in a vicars suit
    Bush gave a speech off an aircraft carrier
    Bush uses the word "evil" in speeches
    Bush announced a general alert without stating a reason
    Bush was the subject of the largest global political demonstration since Vietnam, which was helped by hippie culture.
    Last edited by Reinier; 11-02-2003 at 07:38 AM.

  15. #40
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    If Clinton was so weak why did the terrorists wait till Georgie Porgie was in office to attack us?
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  16. #41
    MulletII - AKA Ninja Boner Gyno Rhino's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Reinier
    Wrong... the assault on saddam never ended since the first gulf war. weekly bombings never stopped, sanctions got stricter and stricter. Saddam was told to get out, or get thrown out, basically. There was no reasonable offer that he neglected.
    *sigh* You talk like this is a bad thing.
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  17. #42
    Banned Reinier's Avatar
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    It is, when you name his recurrent failure to comply as a reason for war. thats circle reasoning, my friend.

    But im glad you recognised that statement.
    Last edited by Reinier; 11-02-2003 at 07:40 AM.

  18. #43
    Wannabebig New Member
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    you said it Reinier ... two 17 yr old school boys have a lot to learn about how the world works . Believe it or not , there are evil people out there that want nothing more than to kill you if they could .

    There was no reasonable offer he neglected ? Someday you'll figure it out .
    Give me your broken , give me your beaten ... I will build them up , I will lead them ... to the threshhold . Make you stronger , make you believe .

  19. #44
    Senior Member Exnor's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Reinier
    Well, it seems pretty darn relevant to the topic to me.

    but for some other arguments id like to hear a response too:

    Bush gave a speech in a vicars suit
    Bush gave a speech off an aircraft carrier
    Bush uses the word "evil" in speeches
    Bush announced a general alert without stating a reason
    Bush was the subject of the largest global political demonstration since Vietnam, which was helped by hippie culture.
    Yup, wasn't refering the the topic starter, more the defensive patriots.
    Last edited by Exnor; 11-02-2003 at 07:44 AM.

  20. #45
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    You're the one directly attacking personally now, not defending your statement with real arguments.

    Hans is so stupid he thinks that we dont know that with the sanctions saddam kept whatever he hadfor himself and didnt give a rats ass if his people died or not . HE had the power to have everything in his country they needed
    I doubt that.
    And even if it's true, does it make it right? What sense does it make. After the Gulf War, Iraq was not a threat to world peace, FACT!

    'Come on guys, Iraq is not a threat anymore, but his people are supressed!!! We have to help them. Let's put millions of sanctions on Iraq, resulting in the death of millions of Iraqi man women and children!!!'

    Of course, the fact that the most powerfull corporations in America do benefit extremely because of this war, and the fact that America now controls the second largest oil reserve in the world, did not influence the decision to go to war..

    In the past 10 years, Israel violated more than 65 UN resolutions, between 1972 and 1990 America veto'd more than 30 UN resolutions on Israel.
    Israel has over 400 nuclear warheads, do they allow UN weapon inspectors, ever? No.
    42% of the palestinian territory are controlled by Israelly settlements. Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land.
    But no one even cares about Israel.
    Last edited by Hans; 11-02-2003 at 07:53 AM.
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  21. #46
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    I see it as it coming down to Bush and Howard Dean who was the Governor of my home state VT.

    Dean did a lot of good things for our state.
    He created some good health care packages and such but he did somethings that also divided the state. I don't know if anyone else in the country was paying attention a few years ago, but Dean is responsible for getting the civil unions legal. He also allowed out of staters to come in easier and buy up all the land and start taking over the state.

    This may shock some people but as a gay man I found the whole civil union debate appalled me. You can have all the rights as married folk and pay the extra taxes, but you can't say your married. It was a slap in the face, and what's worse the gay community acted as if it were some big victory. The only good thing about it was that the partner gets next of kin rights. I believe in equal rights for all.

    Dean also wanted to take guns away from people, let the out of staters come in and take over the state, and along with the civil unions bill, this angered Vermonters, as they take pride in their land and hunting. It started the "Take Back Vermont" brigade and then it's opposition the "Take Vermont Forward" brigade. I sided with the "Take Back Vermont"

    His opposer in the election was a total bitch (Ruth Dewyer) who concentrated too much on the gay issue of the election, and in the end she lost, bad, Dean won buy 75% precent of the votes, which surprised. If she had focused more on the other issues, she in my belief would have won.

    So if Dean is the democratic canidate, then he could do alot of good or divide the country.

    So i'd say this election, go with an independent! lol
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  22. #47
    Banned Reinier's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Brawl
    you said it Reinier ... two 17 yr old school boys have a lot to learn about how the world works . Believe it or not , there are evil people out there that want nothing more than to kill you if they could .

    There was no reasonable offer he neglected ? Someday you'll figure it out .
    Please dont sport that condescending tone before you at least make a point to justify it. Saddam did not want to kill me or Hans.

    So tell me what this reasonable offer is he neglected if its something ill figure out one day. im ready, im a progressive person. tell me now

  23. #48
    Banned Reinier's Avatar
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    Bush`s conservative homophobic and imo somewhat backward (read fundamentalist) laws on homosexuality are another reason why somebody might not want him in office

  24. #49
    Wannabebig New Member
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    Not to mention you are an extremely bad judge of character . We are so far apart on any issue that it would be pointless to talk about it anymore with you .

    Think what you will now ,when you get older you can thank us .
    Give me your broken , give me your beaten ... I will build them up , I will lead them ... to the threshhold . Make you stronger , make you believe .

  25. #50
    Banned Reinier's Avatar
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    Thats a very easy way out isn`t it?

    I think most people on this board will be happy you are not representative of this board.

    I`m young yes, a very original and strong personal attack.
    I think it must be a very valid point against my statements and those by Hans.
    My parents, all of my teachers, the authors I read, they all share my views, and they range from 40-80 years old.

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