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Thread: Increase LBM/Decrease BF PH Questions

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    Wannabebig Member JohnDoe's Avatar
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    Increase LBM/Decrease BF PH Questions

    Hello. The usual "I'm new, but have been reading this forum for a long time" applies. Most of the time I can find answers here without having to post and ask. I figured I would give it a shot this time because I have questions I can't seem to get straight answers for. This post can probably belong in all three Diet, Supps, and Training forums, so I figured I would post it here and a Mod can move it if they feel the need to. No offense intended for them.

    Just to inform; I am currently happy with my body, although there are a couple of areas (lower ab/back) that I would like to see some stubborn body fat disappear. I am currently within the range of 7-8%bf with a visible 4 pack at all times and a visible 6 pack when flexing or when carb/water depleted. Although strength is not my main goal to increase or maintain, my strength is above average for my type. I am much disciplined with my diet and training and all questions below can be based on the assumption that that is true.

    Now, with all the reading I have done on this, I have come up with some questions I havent been able to find answers for.

    Goal = If the main goal is to increase your LBM while keeping your bf as low as possible (not lowering as much as keeping it low or increasing at the slowest rate possible), and since this is supposed to be possible while using PHs:

    1. How sensitive should your calorie intake be in helping keep in line with this goal?

    2. What should the calorie intake level be; below maintenance, slightly below, at maintenance, slightly above, above maintenance?

    3. A product with more 1-Test to 4-AD (T1-Pro compared to S1+) would be more ideal correct?

    4. Assuming a low bf% is already obtained, diet and training are ideal, calorie intake can be kept low, would it be ideal to also use a product like Lipo-Ultra to help reduce some stubborn bf around the lower ab and back region? Would this be possible to do while also using PHs and wanting to increase LBM?

    5. If ridding of stubborn fat cannot be true while using Lipo-Ultra to reduce fat around the lower ab and back area while on PHs, would Ab-Solved be a better solution to help reduce VAT fat gain in those regions?

    6. Can an E/C stack be used as well to help keep fat gain to a minimum and to aid in partitioning?

    7. Should a 2 week on/2 week off cycle be used or would a 4 week on/ 4 week off cycle be more ideal? (With 6-OXO in between).

    8. Would Hiit cardio be ideal to help keep fat gain to a minimum?

    Thanks for any responses in advance!

  2. #2
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Re: Increase LBM/Decrease BF PH Questions

    Originally posted by JohnDoe
    Goal = If the main goal is to increase your LBM while keeping your bf as low as possible (not lowering as much as keeping it low or increasing at the slowest rate possible), and since this is supposed to be possible while using PHs:

    1. How sensitive should your calorie intake be in helping keep in line with this goal?
    Your calorie intake will be the determining factor as to whether or not you gain weight, but if you are using PH/PS you will be able to eat more and see a greater increase in the ratio of LBM to fat that you gain. Some report increasing LBM while reducing bf, but this is usually seen when eating close to your current maintenance level, and this is just from anecdotal evidence.

    I would follow the same general rule, in that you should increase calories until you are gaining an acceptable amount of LBM with minimal fat gain.

    2. What should the calorie intake level be; below maintenance, slightly below, at maintenance, slightly above, above maintenance?
    This would depend on your current goals. If you are looking for significant increases in LBM I would go with above maintenance calories, but if you are looking for a reduction in bf I would go below maintenance. As I mentioned above some have reported changes in body composition when eating at maintenance level and using PH/PS.

    3. A product with more 1-Test to 4-AD (T1-Pro compared to S1+) would be more ideal correct?
    More is not always better, especially if this is your first cycle. You will see more water retention if you use a product that contains more 4-AD but this will also help to offset the lethargy associated with 1-test.

    I would start out with a moderate/low dose to assess your tolerance.

    4. Assuming a low bf% is already obtained, diet and training are ideal, calorie intake can be kept low, would it be ideal to also use a product like Lipo-Ultra to help reduce some stubborn bf around the lower ab and back region? Would this be possible to do while also using PHs and wanting to increase LBM?
    Lipoderm-Ultra would work if you were in a calorie deficit, since it just increases the amount of fat that is mobilized, so if you are not in a calorie deficit the mobilized fat will just be redeposited into adipose tissue.

    5. If ridding of stubborn fat cannot be true while using Lipo-Ultra to reduce fat around the lower ab and back area while on PHs, would Ab-Solved be a better solution to help reduce VAT fat gain in those regions?
    I have heard of people using it in this regards, but the only information available is anecdotal. In theory it should help.

    6. Can an E/C stack be used as well to help keep fat gain to a minimum and to aid in partitioning?
    I would not worry with an E/C when using PH/PS, unless you are eating below maintenance. Too much caffeine will not be beneficial when trying to increase LBM.

    7. Should a 2 week on/2 week off cycle be used or would a 4 week on/ 4 week off cycle be more ideal? (With 6-OXO in between).
    2on/2off/2on/post cycle recovery would be a good way to go IMO. I do not think that 6-OXO would be needed after the first 2 week cycle, as long as you keep calories at the same level that they were when on cycle. With 2 week cycles you can judge your tolerance, and determine if you are experiencing any side effects.

    8. Would Hiit cardio be ideal to help keep fat gain to a minimum?
    I would just increase training volume, and not increase the amount of cardio.

  3. #3
    Wannabebig Member JohnDoe's Avatar
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    Your calorie intake will be the determining factor as to whether or not you gain weight, but if you are using PH/PS you will be able to eat more and see a greater increase in the ratio of LBM to fat that you gain. Some report increasing LBM while reducing bf, but this is usually seen when eating close to your current maintenance level, and this is just from anecdotal evidence.

    I would follow the same general rule, in that you should increase calories until you are gaining an acceptable amount of LBM with minimal fat gain.
    Great. Thanks.

    This would depend on your current goals. If you are looking for significant increases in LBM I would go with above maintenance calories, but if you are looking for a reduction in bf I would go below maintenance. As I mentioned above some have reported changes in body composition when eating at maintenance level and using PH/PS.
    Thanks again!

    More is not always better, especially if this is your first cycle. You will see more water retention if you use a product that contains more 4-AD but this will also help to offset the lethargy associated with 1-test.

    I would start out with a moderate/low dose to assess your tolerance.
    Yeah, first cycle. I was more targeting the lower AD dosage. As for the lethargy, that was one of the reasons for also taking an E/C stack to help fight it.

    Lipoderm-Ultra would work if you were in a calorie deficit, since it just increases the amount of fat that is mobilized, so if you are not in a calorie deficit the mobilized fat will just be redeposited into adipose tissue.
    Okay. So, this wouldn't be too much? Using something like S1+ with Lipo-Ultra... as well as an E/C stack....

    I have heard of people using it in this regards, but the only information available is anecdotal. In theory it should help.
    Thanks. Depending on calorie intake as usual.....

    I would not worry with an E/C when using PH/PS, unless you are eating below maintenance. Too much caffeine will not be beneficial when trying to increase LBM.
    Not even for the partitioning effect or would the PH's be all that I need for this?

    2on/2off/2on/post cycle recovery would be a good way to go IMO. I do not think that 6-OXO would be needed after the first 2 week cycle, as long as you keep calories at the same level that they were when on cycle. With 2 week cycles you can judge your tolerance, and determine if you are experiencing any side effects.
    Great. Thanks. I am still debating between 2 week or 4 week cycles. I have read of plenty of positive feedback on the 4 weeks. 2 weeks seem kind of new so I haven't read much of what peoples expierences have been. As for it being my first cycle, 2 weeks would probably be the best way to go just to test the water, so to speak, I guess.

    I would just increase training volume, and not increase the amount of cardio.
    Really, why? I figured this would greatly help in keeping fat gain to a minimum. So, while on the PH cycle, if calorie intake is low or maintenance (goal being changing body comp, increasing lbm with minimum fat gain) then contnue to do them correct? If on a PH cycle and calorie intake is above maintenance (goal being just gaining as much lbm as possible accepting the fat gain) then don't do cardio?

    Thanks for all you help Bradely!
    Last edited by JohnDoe; 11-03-2003 at 02:18 PM.

  4. #4
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by JohnDoe
    Yeah, first cycle. I was more targeting the lower AD dosage. As for the lethargy, that was one of the reasons for also taking an E/C stack to help fight it.
    You could use the EC to help with the lethargy, but you will gain a tolerance to the EC with extended use, so I would use it only as a preworkout stimulant.

    Okay. So, this wouldn't be too much? Using something like S1+ with Lipo-Ultra... as well as an E/C stack....
    I do not see any reason that it would be, and I have read training journals where this type of stack was effective. Onl use the Lipo if you are in a calorie deficit though.

    Not even for the partitioning effect or would the PH's be all that I need for this?
    The PH/PS will work well as far as increasing nutrient partitioning, and if you are focusing on decreasing bf then you could use the EC. If you are going to be in a calorie surplus I would just leave the EC out.

    Great. Thanks. I am still debating between 2 week or 4 week cycles. I have read of plenty of positive feedback on the 4 weeks. 2 weeks seem kind of new so I haven't read much of what peoples expierences have been. As for it being my first cycle, 2 weeks would probably be the best way to go just to test the water, so to speak, I guess.
    I think the two week cycles would be superior, especially if you are prone to male pattern baldness, acne, etc.

    Really, why? I figured this would greatly help in keeping fat gain to a minimum. So, while on the PH cycle, if calorie intake is low or maintenance (goal being changing body comp, increasing lbm with minimum fat gain) then contnue to do them correct? If on a PH cycle and calorie intake is above maintenance (goal being just gaining as much lbm as possible accepting the fat gain) then don't do cardio?[/B]
    I think it would depend on your goals. If you are focusing on increasing LBM, then I would leave out the HIIT and just increase training volume. You should be able to keep fat gain to a minimum by keeping an eye on calorie intake. If you were looking for maximum LBM gains, I would just eat and worry about the fat later.

    If you are focusing on decreasing bf, then HIIT might be a more beneficial option, since it would help with losing bf.

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    Wannabebig Member JohnDoe's Avatar
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    You could use the EC to help with the lethargy, but you will gain a tolerance to the EC with extended use, so I would use it only as a preworkout stimulant.
    If you are going to be in a calorie surplus I would just leave the EC out.
    Plus, I figured that the less AD will help with the sides.

    I have heard the opposite regarding building a tolerance for an EC stack. The way I was informed is that you should develop a tolerance for E or C by itself, but not when taken together as a stack. I thought the adverse reactions will disappear, but the fat burning effect should actually increase with time. Also, I thought that taking an E/C stack long term is good because it decreases insulin sensitivity so that free fatty acids are less likely to be stored as fat.

    Link to the discussion

    Here is another discussing how an EC stack may stimulate hypertrophy

    I do not see any reason that it would be, and I have read training journals where this type of stack was effective. Onl use the Lipo if you are in a calorie deficit though.
    Okay.

    I think the two week cycles would be superior, especially if you are prone to male pattern baldness, acne, etc.
    Baldness? No, but it does run in my family. My moms twin brother is completely bald. He has been bald since his early 20's. But I am in my late 20's with all of my hair, so far so good.

    Acne? Yes. I had it badly when I was a teenager. Face, back, chest, etc.... Not so much anymore. Of course my diet really has a positive effect on it.

    I think it would depend on your goals. If you are focusing on increasing LBM, then I would leave out the HIIT and just increase training volume. You should be able to keep fat gain to a minimum by keeping an eye on calorie intake. If you were looking for maximum LBM gains, I would just eat and worry about the fat later.

    If you are focusing on decreasing bf, then HIIT might be a more beneficial option, since it would help with losing bf.
    Sounds good.

    Oh, what advantages do you see why taking PH's for a cut over not taking them for a cut? Or even taking them for a bulk for that matter, in my situation? Like I said before, I am already between 7-9% bf with the only area of visible fat I would to work on is my lower stomach area (which is small for most, but I do see a pouch that sticks out) and my lower back (which isn't much either).

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    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by JohnDoe
    I have heard the opposite regarding building a tolerance for an EC stack. The way I was informed is that you should develop a tolerance for E or C by itself, but not when taken together as a stack. I thought the adverse reactions will disappear, but the fat burning effect should actually increase with time. Also, I thought that taking an E/C stack long term is good because it decreases insulin sensitivity so that free fatty acids are less likely to be stored as fat.
    I was referring to the stimulant effects of the EC, not the fat burning benefits, since you were referring to using the EC to help with the lethargy.

    Again, the use of an EC should be determined depending on your goals.


    Here is another discussing how an EC stack may stimulate hypertrophy
    I have not seen any evidence that would state an EC stack would be useful, as far as stimulating hypertrophy. I skimmed through the above link and did not see anything stating anything to the contrary.


    Oh, what advantages do you see why taking PH's for a cut over not taking them for a cut? Or even taking them for a bulk for that matter, in my situation? Like I said before, I am already between 7-9% bf with the only area of visible fat I would to work on is my lower stomach area (which is small for most, but I do see a pouch that sticks out) and my lower back (which isn't much either).
    The ability to retain LBM while cutting calories, and in some cases increasing LBM while losing bf.

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    Wannabebig Member JohnDoe's Avatar
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    I was referring to the stimulant effects of the EC, not the fat burning benefits, since you were referring to using the EC to help with the lethargy.
    Yes, I was referring to both.

    I have not seen any evidence that would state an EC stack would be useful, as far as stimulating hypertrophy. I skimmed through the above link and did not see anything stating anything to the contrary.
    No, I haven't seen any evidence either. Just some talk. I was wondering about this quote though:

    "I was told that Caffeine increases cAMP levels, which will increase AMPK levels, which could reduce protein synthesis. however, i'm not really sure what those are; hopefully someone more knowlegeble can explain this."

    It is interesting at least.

    The ability to retain LBM while cutting calories, and in some cases increasing LBM while losing bf.
    Thanks!

    Oh, which would you preferr, S1+ or T1 Pro? I like how the extra AD in the S1+ will help with the Test sides, but I don't know if I would like the sides that the more AD can bring. I am scared to death about gyno and I don't know if I like the more water retension it brings as well. The less AD in the T1 Pro is what I like the most about it. My thought right now is that if I was to cut while taking one of them I would go for the T1 Pro. If I was going for a bulk, then take the S1+. What do you think?

  8. #8
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by JohnDoe
    Yes, I was referring to both.
    Just to clarify, you are aware that the stimulant effects will diminish with prolonged use?


    No, I haven't seen any evidence either. Just some talk. I was wondering about this quote though:

    "I was told that Caffeine increases cAMP levels, which will increase AMPK levels, which could reduce protein synthesis. however, i'm not really sure what those are; hopefully someone more knowlegeble can explain this."

    It is interesting at least.
    Indeed since I believe that was taken from my response in this thread.
    http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...highlight=AMPK


    Oh, which would you preferr, S1+ or T1 Pro? I like how the extra AD in the S1+ will help with the Test sides, but I don't know if I would like the sides that the more AD can bring. I am scared to death about gyno and I don't know if I like the more water retension it brings as well. The less AD in the T1 Pro is what I like the most about it. My thought right now is that if I was to cut while taking one of them I would go for the T1 Pro. If I was going for a bulk, then take the S1+. What do you think?
    I agree with the above statements, and I recommend keeping some type of anti-e on hand (Formestane, Nolvadex, etc.), especially if you are using PHs that can aromatize.

    As far as which brand to go with, I am unsure. I have seen many people report good results with the Dermabolics/Avant Labs products, but that is not to say the BDC products are not a solid product.

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    Wannabebig Member JohnDoe's Avatar
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    Thanks for responding so quickly!

    Just to clarify, you are aware that the stimulant effects will diminish with prolonged use?
    Yeah, that is why I posted the link to that other discussion about how some think that prolong use doesn't diminish if taking E and C together as opposed to one or the other alone, as well as how it supposed to act as a greater insulin suppressant with extendes usage. Many other people whom I also respect think this way as well (Brian and Blade, over at the HST forum, I believe. I think Lyle McDonald also agrees). I am not sure what to really believe about this. Do you have any studies that support what you know is to be true? It would help me if I was able to read for myself on the subject. No offense to you is implied here.

    Indeed since I believe that was taken from my response in this thread.
    Holy $#@%. That is halarious! So, do you agree that Cafeine can help stimulate Hypertrophy? What about Ephedrine? Any studies saying yes or no?

    I agree with the above statements, and I recommend keeping some type of anti-e on hand (Formestane, Nolvadex, etc.), especially if you are using PHs that can aromatize.

    As far as which brand to go with, I am unsure. I have seen many people report good results with the Dermabolics/Avant Labs products, but that is not to say the BDC products are not a solid product.
    Ok. Thanks. I would like to go with the T1 Pro since I plan to cut, but I am having a hard time getting over the price difference of it and S1+. T1 Pro being around $20 more. Ouch!

    Oh, do you or anyone else know where I could get some Nolvadex?

    Also, is this still rec'ed for the 6-OXO:

    Week 1 600mg daily in two divided doses, morning and night
    Week 2-3 400mg daily
    Week 4 300mg daily

    How many bottles will this take? I can't seem to find on the 1fast400 site how much dosage is contained in one pill. So it is hard to find out how many bottles are needed.
    Last edited by JohnDoe; 11-06-2003 at 05:24 PM.

  10. #10
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by JohnDoe
    Yeah, that is why I posted the link to that other discussion about how some think that prolong use doesn't diminish if taking E and C together as opposed to one or the other alone, as well as how it supposed to act as a greater insulin suppressant with extendes usage. Many other people whom I also respect think this way as well (Brian and Blade, over at the HST forum, I believe. I think Lyle McDonald also agrees). I am not sure what to really believe about this. Do you have any studies that support what you know is to be true? It would help me if I was able to read for myself on the subject. No offense to you is implied here.
    I think we are both referring to the same thing just getting our wires crossed somewhere along the way. Let my try and clarify things.

    1) The fat burning effects of EC will increase with prolonged use, and the caffeine will prevent the negative feedback associated with using ephdrine, due to it's effects on cAMP.

    2) What I mentioned above has nothing to do with the stimulant effects that are seen when using an EC stack. The body will become accustomed to the stimulant effects of the EC, but this does not necessarily mean that the EC is not working or working less.

    In summary, yes I agree that EC stacks will become a more effecient "fat burner" with extended use, but you will also see less of a stimulant effect.

    Hope that clarifies things a bit.


    Holy $#@%. That is halarious! So, do you agree that Cafeine can help stimulate Hypertrophy? What about Ephedrine? Any studies saying yes or no?
    Caffeine will actually have the opposite effect, in that it will help prevent muscle catabolism, but this comes at the expense of decreased protein synthesis.

    I believe some studies have shown ephedrine (without caffeine) can increase glucose disposal, so you could probably use ephedrine as a preworkout stimulant. You would not want to use the ephedrine at other times since without the caffeine you will have nothing to prevent the negative feedback associated with using ephedrine as a stand-alone supplement.



    Ok. Thanks. I would like to go with the T1 Pro since I plan to cut, but I am having a hard time getting over the price difference of it and S1+. T1 Pro being around $20 more. Ouch!
    You could always buy the two seperate, that way you could control the amount of 1-test/4-AD in your cycle, although this would probably make for a more expensive cycle

    Also, is this still rec'ed for the 6-OXO:

    Week 1 600mg daily in two divided doses, morning and night
    Week 2-3 400mg daily
    Week 4 300mg daily
    How long if a cycle are you planning?


    How many bottles will this take? I can't seem to find on the 1fast400 site how much dosage is contained in one pill. So it is hard to find out how many bottles are needed.
    Each bottle contains 60 capsules, and each cap is 100mg.

  11. #11
    Wannabebig Member JohnDoe's Avatar
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    I think we are both referring to the same thing just getting our wires crossed somewhere along the way. Let my try and clarify things.

    1) The fat burning effects of EC will increase with prolonged use, and the caffeine will prevent the negative feedback associated with using ephdrine, due to it's effects on cAMP.

    2) What I mentioned above has nothing to do with the stimulant effects that are seen when using an EC stack. The body will become accustomed to the stimulant effects of the EC, but this does not necessarily mean that the EC is not working or working less.

    In summary, yes I agree that EC stacks will become a more effecient "fat burner" with extended use, but you will also see less of a stimulant effect.

    Hope that clarifies things a bit.
    Yes it does. Thank you. Sorry for the confusion.

    Caffeine will actually have the opposite effect, in that it will help prevent muscle catabolism, but this comes at the expense of decreased protein synthesis.

    I believe some studies have shown ephedrine (without caffeine) can increase glucose disposal, so you could probably use ephedrine as a preworkout stimulant. You would not want to use the ephedrine at other times since without the caffeine you will have nothing to prevent the negative feedback associated with using ephedrine as a stand-alone supplement.
    Great. Thanks.

    You could always buy the two seperate, that way you could control the amount of 1-test/4-AD in your cycle, although this would probably make for a more expensive cycle
    Good option, but I think I am going with the T1Pro.

    How long if a cycle are you planning?
    2 weeks on, 2 weeks off, 2 weeks on, post
    How's 1 squirt in the morning, 1 squirt at night look with the T1Pro?

    Each bottle contains 60 capsules, and each cap is 100mg.
    Thanks!
    Last edited by JohnDoe; 11-07-2003 at 10:30 AM.

  12. #12
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by JohnDoe
    2 weeks on, 2 weeks off, 2 weeks on, post
    One bottle should be enough, since I doubt with that cycle you will experience a significant amount of suppression. I would probably just run 300mgs. per day, which should last you ~3weeks.


    How's 1 squirt in the morning, 1 squirt at night look with the T1Pro?
    How much 1-test/4-AD does that come out to per day?

  13. #13
    Wannabebig Member JohnDoe's Avatar
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    One bottle should be enough, since I doubt with that cycle you will experience a significant amount of suppression. I would probably just run 300mgs. per day, which should last you ~3weeks.
    Ok. Plus I will have the Nolva. Do you know what the rec dosage is for the Nolva, just in case.

    How much 1-test/4-AD does that come out to per day?
    2ml, which I believe is 1 pump, comes to 1-Test: 83mg 4-AD: 42mg

  14. #14
    Wannabebig Member JohnDoe's Avatar
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    Do you know what the rec dosage is for the Nolva, just in case.
    Nevermind, got it.

    Well, how does it look for the dosage of the T1Pro?

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