The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    Hot as FCUK Shark's Avatar
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    Atkins for the Weightlifter

    I know must everybody here says that you should not try an Atkins diet while lifting weights. I'm just curious as to what the actual effect on my body will be were I to do that. (Iím talking about physiology not reduced lifts)

    Also, what if I was to cut cards to near 0 and do cardio say 4 times a week without weight lifting. If I were to do such a diet how much mass would I lose over a period of say two months. Or say I threw in light weights.

    Everyone here says not to do it but there are very few threads that give specific details as to why.

    Thanks!

    p.s. it's good to be back at WBB
    Last edited by Shark; 12-01-2003 at 12:35 PM.

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  3. #2
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    Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism
    by James L. Groff, Sareen S. Gropper

    Nutritional Biochemistry
    by Tom Brody (Author)

    Nutritional Biochemistry and
    Metabolism: with clinical applications
    by Maria C. Linder

    If you really want to find out all the benefits of a ketogenic diet, I would recommend reading these books. Some are kind of advanced biochem stuff. But I see a lot of wrong information posted here on ketogenic diets. Even some of the stuff Lyle MacDonald says is very wrong. Some is good advice.

    For example, after you get through the initial entry into ketosis, then you will have more energy than before on a carb based diet. This is why many distance runners and cyclist in the nineties used these diets and some olympic endurance coaches swear by them. I won't workout heavy while entering ketosis. You will get sick to your stomach easy till you adapt. I get this info from those books and experience.

    Another example from Dr. Linder, "The whole process of muscle protein catabolism and liver gluconeogenesis is regulated principally by glucocorticosteroids and glucagon and a relative lack of insulin. Early in fasting glycogen reserves are depleted, and protein (mainly from muscle) becomes the major source of carbon for glucose production. Glucose is required in substantial amounts by blood cells and the central nervous system on a daily basis. There is also an initiation of ketone body production by the liver to provide a more water soluble form of fat-derived fuel."

    This is where most MD even mess up there information about what a ketogenic diet does.

    "A very similar adaption of protein and energy metabolism
    occurs in persons consuming diets very low in carbohydrates, where there
    is little or no glycogen reserve. <B>However, in this instance, DIETARY
    PROTEIN largely or fully SUBSTITUTES for muscle protein in gluconeogenesis. </B>"

    "The body adapts to starvation and reduces the need for
    protein-dependent gluconeogenesis by boosting its production of ketones,
    a fuel ALTERNATIVE to glucose for MOST CELLS. Circulating ketones reach
    maximum levels after about ten days of fasting and now substitute for
    much of the glucose requirement of the central nervous system.
    <B>This drastically reduces the need for catabolism of muscle protein. </B>"

    But I have seen it put up that these diets make you loss muscle quickly. Search the archives for ketogenic and ketosis to see what I mean.

    3 Other pieces of advice.

    1. Take creatine even without carbs. It will make up for the loss of quick burst of energy that are more typical of carb metabolism.

    2. Don't read too much atkins. You have to control your calorie intact but it is easier to do because you will find you are not hungry unless you miss a meal. Try Protein Power by Eades (paperback at most bookstores and easy to understand).

    3. Get a good multiday vitamin to take because guys avoid the green veggies that you can eat on a ketogenic diet.


    Again, I would recommend you go to the library and get one or all of those books. For all you know I could be some high school kid who weighs 102 pounds and has never dieted before. Or I could be a PhD student in a food science lab.


    http://www.lowcarb.org/ketosis.html

    I grabbed part of this quickly from this webpage rather than coping it all in from the book. Just being honest.

  4. #3
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by liftalittle
    Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism
    by James L. Groff, Sareen S. Gropper

    Nutritional Biochemistry
    by Tom Brody (Author)

    Nutritional Biochemistry and
    Metabolism: with clinical applications
    by Maria C. Linder

    If you really want to find out all the benefits of a ketogenic diet, I would recommend reading these books. Some are kind of advanced biochem stuff. But I see a lot of wrong information posted here on ketogenic diets. Even some of the stuff Lyle MacDonald says is very wrong. Some is good advice.

    For example, after you get through the initial entry into ketosis, then you will have more energy than before on a carb based diet. This is why many distance runners and cyclist in the nineties used these diets and some olympic endurance coaches swear by them. I won't workout heavy while entering ketosis. You will get sick to your stomach easy till you adapt. I get this info from those books and experience.
    Endurance activities are more aerobic in nature, so the need for muscle glycogen is decreased, which is why the keto diets would not hinder perfomance. It is ironic that there is no mention of sprinters, weight lifters, etc., which are the ones that would see a decrease in performance.

  5. #4
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Re: Atkins for the Weightlifter

    Originally posted by crussow
    I know must everybody here says that you should not try an Atkins diet while lifting weights. I'm just curious as to what the actual effect on my body will be were I to do that. (Iím talking about physiology not reduced lifts)
    Your performance in the gym will suffer, i.e. decreased lifts. This is not to say that you are losing muscle, but I would think that if you were unable to fuel anaerobic activities, then you would see less stimulation, which could lead to decreases in LBM.

    I really do not see the point in following a SKD, when weight training, since ketosis is not an indicator of weight loss. I would recommend taking in a small amount of preworkout carbs, which would not be detrimental to overall weight loss.

    The cyclical aspect of the CKD is what makes it beneficial, not necessarily the glycogen supercompensation that follows after performing a carb up.


    Also, what if I was to cut cards to near 0 and do cardio say 4 times a week without weight lifting. If I were to do such a diet how much mass would I lose over a period of say two months. Or say I threw in light weights.
    Depends on how many cals below maintenance you are eating, and low carbs does not necessarily mean that you will lose LBM. As long as you are taking in enough protein and EFAs, while consuming enough fat to make up for the decreased amount of carbs, you should be able to minimize LBM losses. Although weight training will be very helpful in preserving LBM.

  6. #5
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    Re: Re: Atkins for the Weightlifter

    Originally posted by bradley


    Your performance in the gym will suffer, i.e. decreased lifts. This is not to say that you are losing muscle, but I would think that if you were unable to fuel anaerobic activities, then you would see less stimulation, which could lead to decreases in LBM.



    Your performance in the gym will suffer initial as you enter ketosis and get used to using the different fuel. After that you will find that you will have more energy. Just try it for a month and if I am wrong then quit the diet. Also the creatine will help with the any enegry question you might have. Period


    I would recommend against the carbs before you work out. I am guessing that you would use some thing like fructose and not a complex carb since a complex (pasta) carb would take time to break down and thus would not supply that carb burst of enegry. The main two reasons are.


    1). It could cause you to start to crave carbs on the atkins. Not helpful for sticking with the diet.

    2). The insulin spike caused by a fructose type of simple carb can cause an insulin spike. This is the opposite of what you to get the full benefits of a ketogenic diet.


    As for the cardio. If your calorie intake is too low than you can start to burn lbm. I do cardio ( 20 - 30 mins) after all my workouts and then follow that with a whey shake to quickly saturate the amount of protein entering my system. Whey is known to be absorbed quickly so is great for this. Thus, you primary will have used up dietary fat with cardio, then will being body fat and dietary protein to minimize loss of lbm. Put plenty of dietary protein in the atkins along with the fats to avoid lbm loss. This is all calorie depend, which atkins suggest is not important, and why I avoid atkins dietary advice.



    Originally posted by bradley


    Endurance activities are more aerobic in nature, so the need for muscle glycogen is decreased, which is why the keto diets would not hinder perfomance. It is ironic that there is no mention of sprinters, weight lifters, etc., which are the ones that would see a decrease in performance.


    This is almost amusing since weight lifter actually go into oxygen debt like a distance runner after being in the gym for alittle while. Sprinters work by running 10 secs to a few minutes (event dependent). Most people workout for more time than it takes a sprinter to run. After the first few heavy lift are through, you start to really deplete glycogen stores in the muscle and liver. By using a ketogenic diet, you can have plenty of energy at the end of a workout where as the carb based approach leaves you feeling very sluggish towards the end of your work. Again, this is because you workout for more than a few mintues and thus the analogy to sprints is bad. Another misconception of many people.
    Ketones bodies supply a huge amount of energy. Again read the books. Carbs are more energy burst and then take a while to renew the muscle's complete carb supply.

  7. #6
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Atkins for the Weightlifter

    Originally posted by liftalittle
    Your performance in the gym will suffer initial as you enter ketosis and get used to using the different fuel. After that you will find that you will have more energy. Just try it for a month and if I am wrong then quit the diet. Also the creatine will help with the any enegry question you might have. Period
    You need muscle glycogen to fuel anearobic exercise, not fat, so even though your body has switched over to using mainly fat as energy, you will still see a decrease in performance.

    The Creatine-Phosphate system can provide energy for short, intense exercise, so if you were to keep volume and reps low, muscle glycogen would not be a limiting factor.


    2). The insulin spike caused by a fructose type of simple carb can cause an insulin spike. This is the opposite of what you to get the full benefits of a ketogenic diet.
    The above statement is not correct, since fructose will not cause any significant increase in insulin. Fructose will be used to replenish liver glycogen, hence no insulin response. This is the main reason that fructose is used as a sweetner for diabetics.


    As for the cardio. If your calorie intake is too low than you can start to burn lbm. I do cardio ( 20 - 30 mins) after all my workouts and then follow that with a whey shake to quickly saturate the amount of protein entering my system. Whey is known to be absorbed quickly so is great for this. Thus, you primary will have used up dietary fat with cardio, then will being body fat and dietary protein to minimize loss of lbm.
    Since you are in ketosis, the whey will be turned into glucose, via gluconeogenesis, and therefore used to replinish liver glycogen. This is the reason that whey can kick you out of ketosis.


    This is almost amusing since weight lifter actually go into oxygen debt like a distance runner after being in the gym for alittle while. Sprinters work by running 10 secs to a few minutes (event dependent). Most people workout for more time than it takes a sprinter to run. After the first few heavy lift are through, you start to really deplete glycogen stores in the muscle and liver. By using a ketogenic diet, you can have plenty of energy at the end of a workout where as the carb based approach leaves you feeling very sluggish towards the end of your work. Again, this is because you workout for more than a few mintues and thus the analogy to sprints is bad. Another misconception of many people.
    Ketones bodies supply a huge amount of energy. Again read the books. Carbs are more energy burst and then take a while to renew the muscle's complete carb supply.
    If you have no muscle glycogen, then your performance will decrease. As I stated above, fat can not be used during anaerobic exercise, so when following an SKD how do you suggest refilling muscle glycogen to avoid the decrease in performance?


    After the first few heavy lift are through, you start to really deplete glycogen stores in the muscle and liver.
    It will take more than one workout to deplete muscle glycogen and liver glycogen store, assuming you are not working out for hours on end. You will definitely not deplete muscle glycogen to a significant degree after a few heavy sets of exercise.

  8. #7
    Hot as FCUK Shark's Avatar
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    Interesting points.

    Bradley, I think my confusion is this:
    If I am in ketosis and my body is breaking down fat cells for fuel instead of glucose then why is being in ketosis not an indicator of losing fat? Also, if I am taking in plenty of protein and fat in my carb-free diet then would my body not use that incoming protein before going catabolic and absorbing its own lean body mass?

    From reading some of the stuff on atkins.com and what liftalittle said it seems like your body will make use of dietary protein in gluconeogenesis as an alternative to eating up its own LBM so if I were to lift on a no carb diet (even if those lifts were substantially decreased) would it not suggest that my body would use my dietary protein to rebuild muscle mass?

    Keep in mind that I am simply drawing conclusions (probably incorrect) from reading books and such. Don't want to step on any toes.

    -Chris

  9. #8
    confused by simplicity bradley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crussow
    Interesting points.

    Bradley, I think my confusion is this:
    If I am in ketosis and my body is breaking down fat cells for fuel instead of glucose then why is being in ketosis not an indicator of losing fat? Also, if I am taking in plenty of protein and fat in my carb-free diet then would my body not use that incoming protein before going catabolic and absorbing its own lean body mass?
    Ketones can be produced from the incomplete breakdown of dietary fat, as well as the breakdown of stored bodyfat. This means that you can actually be eating above maintenance calories and still be in ketosis, due to ketones being produced from the dietary fat that is consumed.

    By consuming adequate amounts of dietary protein you will help minimize the amount of LBM that is catabolized, as long as you are not cutting cals too low.

    From reading some of the stuff on atkins.com and what liftalittle said it seems like your body will make use of dietary protein in gluconeogenesis as an alternative to eating up its own LBM so if I were to lift on a no carb diet (even if those lifts were substantially decreased) would it not suggest that my body would use my dietary protein to rebuild muscle mass?
    To get an appreciable amount of glucose from gluconeogenesis, you would have to consume a large amount of protein, which would end up putting you over maintenance calories. Also, the glucose produced via gluconeogenesis would be also be used to refill liver glycogen as well. One has to keep in mind that gluconeogenesis is not very energy effecient.

    Hope that helps clarify some of the points I am trying to make.

  10. #9
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    I did Atkins for about 10 days when not lifting lost around 7 lbs and kept most of it off. I've been thinking about doing it for another 10 days in January. I only need to lose about 5lbs. But it is a very tough road. You will damn near be ready to kill for a glass of milk.
    Second thoughts, Nope.

  11. #10
    Hot as FCUK Shark's Avatar
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    well i'm on day 11 of my no-carbing it and I am down from 230 to about 219.5. I wonder how much of that is really water loss and muscle glycogen but it sure does feel good when you step on the scale to see that numerical difference. I notice that thigs are a bit tighter and my waist is a tad smaller becasue my pants fit better. Have not quite made a notch on the belt yet, that will probably come at about 215. Seriously though, my appetite is the smallest it has ever been. period. I really have to make myself eat sometimes.

  12. #11
    Grasshoppa
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    In only 11 days, a good majority of it is water and glycogen depletion. I feel the same way on my low carb days...pants fit better, legs are tighter...they fill in again when I refeed.
    Shao-LiN
    "I tried so hard and got so far, but in the end, it doesn't even matter." - Linkin Park

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