The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

It’s no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
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    Chin Ups An Pulls Ups

    Okay i havent got to do enuff pull ups or chin ups to really feel or see results, i've only done them like twice, but i liked them... And i know its not the best, but the doorway bar **** is alright for starts but i cant do pull ups on them because my elbows hit the doorway, so can chin ups work the lats too? or just pull ups..

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  3. #2
    is numero uno Saint Patrick's Avatar
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    Chin-ups work lats too.
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  4. #3
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    Thanks man

    You are god for a day man.. thanks

  5. #4
    Senior Member Gavan's Avatar
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    Chins even work the lats harder : greater range of motion + heavier loads !
    Chins are THE biceps/lats builder and will also make your shoulders/traps grow !

    read this article :

    http://www.google.be/search?q=cache:...hl=fr&ie=UTF-8
    Last edited by Gavan; 03-15-2004 at 12:19 PM.
    Gain Muscles ? Overload !
    Lose Fat ? Input < Output
    Genetic determines your potential
    Chins : 10x106kg Dips 10x109kg

  6. #5
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Chins do not work the lats "harder." Pullups but the biceps in a significantly weaker position than chins, and so more work has to be done by the lats. E.g., 8 pullups will require more lat work than 8 chinups.

    I believe that article concurs, but it then has some strange logic:
    "Regardless of hand grip uses, the biceps will inevitably fatigue first during pulldowns, chin-ups, rows, or any compound back exercise. So why make the weak link even weaker by placing the biceps in a disadvantageous position? A supinated grip is more desirable."

    I don't this follows logically at all.

    Regardless, do both chins and pullups, and never, EVAR!!! do wide grip pullups.

  7. #6
    wooooo Jasonl's Avatar
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    I don't see what's wrong with wide-grip pull-ups, I do them all the time.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Gavan's Avatar
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    [/QUOTE]8 pullups will require more lat work than 8 chinups[QUOTE]

    Yes but when you can do 8 pullups you can do 12 chinups or 8 chinups + weight attached which require at least as much lat works than 8 pullups.
    Gain Muscles ? Overload !
    Lose Fat ? Input < Output
    Genetic determines your potential
    Chins : 10x106kg Dips 10x109kg

  9. #8
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    This is confusing. What is the difference between a chin-up and a pull up? I do widegrip pro-nated grip chinups at the gym and they are much harder than supinated grip ones. Am I wasting my time and should do sipinated closer grip chin-ups to maximize effectiveness and muscle development?

  10. #9
    Banned kensterz's Avatar
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    No wide grips are good. Chin ups are your palms facing away, and pull ups are palms facing in toward you while your hands are on the bar. If anyone would like to dispute about the hand positioning between chin-ups and pull-ups, ask me and I will prove it.

  11. #10
    Son of Krypton Majestic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensterz
    No wide grips are good. Chin ups are your palms facing away, and pull ups are palms facing in toward you while your hands are on the bar. If anyone would like to dispute about the hand positioning between chin-ups and pull-ups, ask me and I will prove it.
    Baloney. We go over this all the time.

    Half the board sees it one way, half the other.

    For me, "chins" are palms facing TOWARDS you. Pullups are palms facing AWAY from you.

  12. #11
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic
    Baloney. We go over this all the time.

    Half the board sees it one way, half the other.

    For me, "chins" are palms facing TOWARDS you. Pullups are palms facing AWAY from you.
    You are correct, sir.

    Though i really want to know how kensterz intends to prove otherwise. Prove away.

    And wide grip pullups do indeed suck. They are the upperbody equivalent of quart-squats -- they involve reduced ROM and are easier, which is why people do them.

    And Gavan, I disagree: the reason that you can do more chins or use weight is that your biceps are used, not that your lats are stronger or worked more. You are effectively doing assisted pullups when you do chins -- as in your example, if you had an assist machine, you could do 12 pullups with a small assist and your lats would be worked similarly to 12 chinups. Now, it is definately legitimate to argue that chins are a more efficient way to work both lats and biceps, but that's not your statement.

  13. #12
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    'I' believe Majestic is corrrect.
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    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
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  14. #13
    HomeYield WillKuenzel's Avatar
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    Chin ups, pull ups, pronated, supinated, who cares. Just do them. But I agree with Majestic, Mixmaster and Maki.
    What is elite?
    "Those who work the hardest often complain the least." -anonymous
    Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.

  15. #14
    zen idiot Scott S's Avatar
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    :withstupi

    Pick a variation you like and keep adding weight.

  16. #15
    Banned kensterz's Avatar
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    Have people people ever been in the army or navy? They order you do to chin-ups, palms facing away from you. Go pick up a book in the library, all rows and chins have disgrams of people having their palms facing away.

  17. #16
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  18. #17
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    thanx for that article man....

  19. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeminiDragon
    Okay i havent got to do enuff pull ups or chin ups to really feel or see results, i've only done them like twice, but i liked them... And i know its not the best, but the doorway bar **** is alright for starts but i cant do pull ups on them because my elbows hit the doorway, so can chin ups work the lats too? or just pull ups..
    Just some advice - you should not flare your elbows out so they hit the doorway. More effective form includes pulling your elbows in and in front of you when pulling yourself up. The doorway could be a blessing in disguise and force you to adopt the form you'll most likely find 10 years down the road when you figure out what works the best. I'd suggest doing them right in that doorway for now.
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  20. #19
    Son of Krypton Majestic's Avatar
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    Oh yeah....that's like, (+5) for me!

    Seriously though....regardless of labels....chins/pullups OWN!!

  21. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash
    Chins do not work the lats "harder." Pullups but the biceps in a significantly weaker position than chins, and so more work has to be done by the lats. E.g., 8 pullups will require more lat work than 8 chinups.

    I believe that article concurs, but it then has some strange logic:
    "Regardless of hand grip uses, the biceps will inevitably fatigue first during pulldowns, chin-ups, rows, or any compound back exercise. So why make the weak link even weaker by placing the biceps in a disadvantageous position? A supinated grip is more desirable."

    I don't this follows logically at all.

    Regardless, do both chins and pullups, and never, EVAR!!! do wide grip pullups.
    it would help if you could follow the above logic. plams facing is the best way to work the back harder as it puts the bicep in a stronger postion so your back either do more reps and more weight, thus resulting in your back doing more work.
    Your lasts do not assit in forearm flexion. so why hinder that by making that area a weaker joint by doing palms facing away?
    my exprience - joined gym 10 years ago, 6 1/2 years hard weight training exprience.

  22. #21
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by body
    it would help if you could follow the above logic. plams facing is the best way to work the back harder as it puts the bicep in a stronger postion so your back either do more reps and more weight, thus resulting in your back doing more work.
    Your lasts do not assit in forearm flexion. so why hinder that by making that area a weaker joint by doing palms facing away?
    It seems pretty straightforward to me:
    If the bicep is in a stronger position, then the lats do less work per rep than in pullups. With pullups, lats have to do more work per rep.

    One is not better than the other in this limited sense: You will work your lats equally if you do pullups or a few more chinups.

    Pullups are better in every functional sense: climbing of any sort requires overhand pullup grips much more often than underhanded. Hell, I train all pullups (and chins) without wrapping my thumb, ever, for the most functional transferrance.

  23. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash
    It seems pretty straightforward to me:
    If the bicep is in a stronger position, then the lats do less work per rep than in pullups. With pullups, lats have to do more work per rep.

    One is not better than the other in this limited sense: You will work your lats equally if you do pullups or a few more chinups.

    Pullups are better in every functional sense: climbing of any sort requires overhand pullup grips much more often than underhanded. Hell, I train all pullups (and chins) without wrapping my thumb, ever, for the most functional transferrance.
    which muscle group is stronger? your lats or biceps?
    which will give up 1st on pull ups? lats or biceps?

    you have to increase the time it takes the biceps to give up, thus the lats get worked harder.
    its about forarm flexion. Your lats can't help this. they play no part in the movement. So why put it in a weaker postion by doing overhand grip?

    when you curl you get more reps or weight doing normal curls over spider curls? but do your get biceps get worked harder in the spider grip curl method?

    As for functionality of sport. this is a BB forum and not a rock climbing one. I can't remeber the last time i had to pull myself up and i am still more than capable of doing it using both gripsif i had to. I just choose my work out to be more effeicent.
    my exprience - joined gym 10 years ago, 6 1/2 years hard weight training exprience.

  24. #23
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by body
    which muscle group is stronger? your lats or biceps?
    which will give up 1st on pull ups? lats or biceps?

    you have to increase the time it takes the biceps to give up, thus the lats get worked harder.
    its about forarm flexion. Your lats can't help this. they play no part in the movement. So why put it in a weaker postion by doing overhand grip?

    when you curl you get more reps or weight doing normal curls over spider curls? but do your get biceps get worked harder in the spider grip curl method?

    As for functionality of sport. this is a BB forum and not a rock climbing one. I can't remeber the last time i had to pull myself up and i am still more than capable of doing it using both gripsif i had to. I just choose my work out to be more effeicent.
    1) I don't do curls. Ha!

    2) I included the functionality issues as an aside, in case people were interested. However, most rock climbers I know have far superior lat development and strength to the weight lifters I see.

    3) As for efficiency, pullups are the best if you want to focus on your lats, as I discussed before, because it takes fewer reps to fatigue them. As far as your lats are concerned, chinups are like doing pullups with an assist.

    4) We should train as many different grips as possible, to increase stabilizer strength, if you want to be strong and to prevent injury.

  25. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash
    1) I don't do curls. Ha!

    2) I included the functionality issues as an aside, in case people were interested. However, most rock climbers I know have far superior lat development and strength to the weight lifters I see.

    3) As for efficiency, pullups are the best if you want to focus on your lats, as I discussed before, because it takes fewer reps to fatigue them. As far as your lats are concerned, chinups are like doing pullups with an assist.

    4) We should train as many different grips as possible, to increase stabilizer strength, if you want to be strong and to prevent injury.
    1) fair enough.

    2) then you do not know many good weightlifters. show me some pics of some top rock climber back and compare them to even people on this board for lat development. i like to see how there back strenght also compares to people on this baord and other lifters in general. when i seen people climb and had friends that do climbing. they have no where the lat development of me and my lifing friends. okay they may have smaller waist and no legs so there lats may look bigger in proportion to there size. but put a tape meausre around there back and waist and we have a bigger difference to them. plus a lot of top climbers will have lasts as a strong point as that makes them a good climber.

    3) it does not take fewer reps to fatigue them. it fatigues your biceps and forarm earlier not your back. as i said how can the lats or any back muscle assist in forarm flexion? it can't that. that is the weak link. it does not matter how much ahard the lats work(and they do not) they can't help that part of the movement. this is the part of the movement that will fatigue 1st.

    4) A) why do Bb need stabilizer stregnth? B) name the different stabilizer that are strenght between the grips? C) show me one piece of evidence to say this decrease the chance of injury. i really would like to see this. D) strenght for what? it like doing flat bench and incline bench. if you want a strong incline bench for the sake of it. do inclines. but if you want to have just a strong chest and arms then doing flat is fine.
    my exprience - joined gym 10 years ago, 6 1/2 years hard weight training exprience.

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