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Thread: soreness and rest and chest questions ???

  1. #1
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    soreness and rest and chest questions ???

    ive been workin out for about a year now and i have been successful in getting all the target muscles sore following a workout. ive read information that muscle soreness generally lasts for about 5 days and the cns heals in about 7 days, so the the wbb routines are ideal. ive tried wbb 1 and i like it.

    thing is that i generally have soreness longer than 5 days in the larger muscles, and i assume that my cns has not completely recovered in 7 days. so i have great intensity. now my question is, do i need more rest between workouts or more rest on the weekends? and is it normal to have so much soreness?

    i find that progress halts if i train on a routine longer and longer so i change routines. each bodypart responds differently to different routines and workout methods. i also take a week off every 3 months to get fresh. i have been successful in gaining 20 lbs overall. although one bodypart is severely lagging and that is my chest, i am successful in getting it sore, but no growth. could it be that i am overtraining my chest, getting it so sore and then training it again too soon?

    i am now maintaining the rest of my body to simply catch up my chest to be more proportionate to the rest of my body, i look ridiculous and i would like to consider any advice. funny the harder i train the more i get nowhere.

    some history of my training: ive done compound and isolation movements, high rep, low rep, presses w/bar and db (flat, incline, decline), flyes, cables, dips (4 chest); i've done preexhaustion, straight sets, supersetts, drop sets, and partials. ive trained chest once a week, and twice a week, and done a heavy/light protocol. i also have strict form where i keep my chest high, shoulder blades back, and a slight arch in my back to keep the weight on my pectoral girdle. oh and ive tried lowering the bar to middle, high, and low chest.

    another interestin point is that when i do flat and incline presses i have soreness in my upper pecs, and when i do declines and dips i have soreness in my lower pecs. most trainess only need to do flat and inclines, for lower and upper respectively. i read that a person can train his entire chest with the flat bench with perfect form, but most cant and have to do some incline work. i on the other hand have found that when i do flat and inclines i seem to overwork my upper pecs and i NEED declines or dips for lower chest. my brother has the same muscle response and i conclude this to be due to some sort of genetic skeletal stucture. is that possible???

    hopefully all this information will be helpful for someone to help me troubleshoot my dilemma.

    thanks

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by tongster
    thing is that i generally have soreness longer than 5 days in the larger muscles
    although one bodypart is severely lagging and that is my chest, i am successful in getting it sore, but no growth. could it be that i am overtraining my chest, getting it so sore and then training it again too soon?
    funny the harder i train the more i get nowhere.
    All seems to point to overtraining IMO.
    I'm not moaning, i'm having an opinion.

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    yea i believe you are overtraining take it easy a little lighter on the wieghts take like 2 weeks off and let all that recover don't push yourself to much.
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    Possibly a lack of protein/cals to help the muscles recover? but it also sounds like a case of overtraining

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    Not trying to beat the bush but IMO it does sound like overtraining and i would maybe take a week off from chest...also as andy said check tha cal/protein intake
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    Have you tryed Dumbells. They work great for chest.

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    i dont think i have a lack of protein or cal cus the rest of my body grows and the chest doesnt. i guess i will just have to give myself a little more rest.

    thanks guys

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    There's is nothing in his post that suggests he's suffering from overtraining syndrome.

    If you answer no to all of the questions below, then I seriously doubt you are near overtraining at all.

    Are you losing strength, even if only on specific exercises?

    Do you sleep well?

    Do you have a lack of tolerance to bright lights, including sunlight?

    Do you feel dizzy and light headed when you get up quicly?

    Do you have a lack of sex drive?

    Did you notice any heart rate changes?

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    My advice to you is to try HST.

    Personally, I can't get my calves to grow anywhere near the rate the rest of my body does, and I've already conformed to that. Maybe that's what you'll have to do....

  10. #10
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    Oh there's always one who want's to disagree - 'Overtraining Syndrome" - Bit dramatic don't you think? Having read the original post i'd say there was more than enough to claim that he may be overtraining his chest slightly.. but well that's only my humble opinion and that's yours.
    I'm not moaning, i'm having an opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J450n83
    Oh there's always one who want's to disagree - 'Overtraining Syndrome" - Bit dramatic don't you think? Having read the original post i'd say there was more than enough to claim that he may be overtraining his chest slightly.. but well that's only my humble opinion and that's yours.
    Overtraining syndrome is well documented condition, even if not completely understood, that has nothing to do with training a sore muscle or any of that. I can give you the list of symptoms, and a glimpse of the impact it has on the neural, endocrine and immune system.

    What can you tell me about your muscle overtraining that has any remotely logical evidence behind it?
    Last edited by restless; 02-13-2004 at 12:46 PM.

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    I don't think he's overtraining either. IMO some people have certain body parts that lag in growth when compared to others. For me, and i know this is not for everyone, it works best if i train that body part with less intensity twice a week as opposed to higher intensity once a week. I also have a lagging chest and the only way i see good growth is by training twice a week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by restless
    Overtraining syndrome is well documented condition, even if not completely understood, that has nothing to do with training a sore muscle or any of that. I can give you the list of symptoms, and a glimpse of the impact it has on the neural, endocrine and immune system.
    What can you tell me about your muscle overtraining that has any remotely logical evidence behind it?
    Exactly - not completely understood. You can talk about the impact it has on the "neural, endocrine and immune system" but this isn't a battle of words here...


    I put it to you, what 'logical evidence' can you put behind your theory?

    The man comes on here claiming that "that i generally have soreness longer than 5 days in the larger muscles" - five days soreness in the chest? - i'd say that was a pretty long time to be sore for - i.e if soreness were to last that long it leads me to suggest overtraining may be involved.

    Also "although one bodypart is severely lagging and that is my chest, i am successful in getting it sore, but no growth. could it be that i am overtraining my chest, getting it so sore and then training it again too soon?" - The man is training his chest in order to 'catch up with the rest of his body and therefore maybe putting in such extra effort that he may be overtraining. And i quote again -- "funny the harder i train the more i get nowhere" --- By this i take it he wants his chest to grow so much that the extra effort put in may cause overtraining once again.. How can you claim that there is no evidence of overtraining involved??!

    It has nothing to do with your random list of questions. None of which i say are that relevant.

    Don't just come on here and rubbish everyone's opinion for the sake of it, as though your's is set in stone. I've been in this game for quite a while and i don't appreciate being mocked.

    As I've already said, that's your opinion on the matter and this is mine. Thankyou.
    I'm not moaning, i'm having an opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J450n83


    I put it to you, what 'logical evidence' can you put behind your theory? .
    I asked first, but I'm working on it. Unfortunatelly I lost a lot of files in my last hard drive, but I'll present some. You're gonna have a hard time supporting your imaginary localized overtraining though, since it doesn't exist.




    Quote Originally Posted by J450n83
    Also "although one bodypart is severely lagging and that is my chest, i am successful in getting it sore, but no growth. could it be that i am overtraining my chest, getting it so sore and then training it again too soon?" - The man is training his chest in order to 'catch up with the rest of his body and therefore maybe putting in such extra effort that he may be overtraining. And i quote again -- "funny the harder i train the more i get nowhere" --- By this i take it he wants his chest to grow so much that the extra effort put in may cause overtraining once again.. How can you claim that there is no evidence of overtraining involved??!


    It has nothing to do with your random list of questions. None of which i say are that relevant.
    You sir, are obviously clueless about what overtraining is. The "random list of questions", are the known and documented symptoms of overtraining syndrome. I have been there before, so I should know.
    Last edited by restless; 02-14-2004 at 02:51 AM.

  15. #15
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    Look mate, i've got better things to do than come on here and have a pissing contest. Those questions appear to be random as though plucked from some article documenting 'Overtraining'. I'm not talking about overtraining as a whole. My main point on this is - the info given by 'tongster' leads me to believe he may be overtraining HIS CHEST. Not overall. It was a suggestion.This is just my opinion. It's my right. But as i've already said - that's only yours. It isn't set in stone. I'm gonna agree to disagree on this.
    I'm not moaning, i'm having an opinion.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by tongster
    ive been workin out for about a year now and i have been successful in getting all the target muscles sore following a workout. ive read information that muscle soreness generally lasts for about 5 days and the cns heals in about 7 days, so the the wbb routines are ideal. ive tried wbb 1 and i like it.

    thing is that i generally have soreness longer than 5 days in the larger muscles, and i assume that my cns has not completely recovered in 7 days. so i have great intensity. now my question is, do i need more rest between workouts or more rest on the weekends? and is it normal to have so much soreness?

    i find that progress halts if i train on a routine longer and longer so i change routines. each bodypart responds differently to different routines and workout methods. i also take a week off every 3 months to get fresh. i have been successful in gaining 20 lbs overall. although one bodypart is severely lagging and that is my chest, i am successful in getting it sore, but no growth. could it be that i am overtraining my chest, getting it so sore and then training it again too soon?
    To respond to your first paragraph, soreness in the muscles is not necessary for growth. Nor is it an indicator of growth. I could hit you in the chest with a baseball bat and you would be sore...but you would not grow.

    As far as your third paragraph goes, this may be part of the problem. Changing routines frequently (if you mean changing the exercises) may not be that beneficial. If you do a new exercise your neural system needs time to adapt to this. Over time as it adapts your weight for that particular exercise will go up, sometimes quite fast, but eventually it will taper off, and then you simply have to work hard at getting better. Are you sure that is what is not happening? Are you sure you are not mistaking adaption of your nervous system for a plateau? Just something to consider.

  17. #17
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    Did you notice any heart rate changes? (1)

    Do you have a lack of sex drive? (2,4)

    Are you losing strength, even if only on specific exercises? (3,)

    Do you sleep well? (5)

    Do you have a lack of tolerance to bright lights, including sunlight?

    This one I couldn't find anything, but I have my personal experience to back it up.


    Do you feel dizzy and light headed when you get up quicly?

    Now this last one is a little tricky to find a direct reference of it, so I'll have to explain to you. Since the adrenal glands can't function properly and produce vasoconstricting substances (epinephrine, etc) there's a lack of blood flow when you get up quicly. Tis can lead to dizzyness and light headedness.


    Now let's see yours.



    1-Night heart rate variability during overtraining in male endurance athletes.

    Bosquet L, Papelier Y, Leger L, Legros P.

    Faculty of Sports Sciences and Physical Education, University of Lille 2, Ronchin, France.

    AIM: The purpose of the study was to examine whether an unaccustomed increase in training volume would result in characteristics changes in heart rate variability (HRV), in order to determine if this marker can be used to diagnose overtraining. METHODS: Nine experienced endurance athletes increased their usual amount of training by 100% within 4 weeks. Night ECG was recorded before (baseline) and after (OVER) this period of overload, and after 2 weeks of recovery (REC). RESULTS: We diagnosed overtraining in 6 subjects using both physiological and psychological criteria. No difference was noted in heart rate for night periods (56+/-12, 55+/-10 and 53+/-15 bpm, respectively; p>0.05). We found no significant changes of LF/HF (1.10+/-0.92, 0.96+/-0.57 and 0.59+/-0.43, respectively; p>0.05) or HF expressed in normalized units (54.81+/-20.12, 53.81+/-11.35 and 66.15+/-15.12%, respectively; p>0.05). CONCLUSION: In the conditions of the present study, HRV during sleep does not seem to be a valid marker of overtraining in male endurance athletes. Before concluding to the uselessness of this tool in the monitoring of the syndrome, longitudinal studies with elite or sub-elite athletes are needed to determine if spontaneously developed overtraining results in the same response.

    2-Hormonal responses in athletes: the use of a two bout exercise protocol to detect subtle differences in (over)training status.

    Meeusen R, Piacentini MF, Busschaert B, Buyse L, De Schutter G, Stray-Gundersen J.

    Department of Human Physiology and Sportsmedicine, Free University of Brussels, Pleinlaan 2, 1050, Brussels, Belgium.

    In overtrained athletes, several signs and symptoms have been associated with the imbalance between training and recovery. However, reliable diagnostic markers for distinguishing between well-trained, overreached (OR) and overtrained (OT) athletes are lacking. A hallmark feature of overtraining syndrome (OTS) is the inability to sustain intense exercise and recover for the next training or competition session. We therefore devised a test protocol utilizing two bouts of maximal work. With this test protocol we tried to establish a difference in hormonal responses between the training status of T and OR athletes. Seven well-trained cyclists participated in this study and were tested before and after a training camp. We also present the data of one OT motocross athlete who was clinically diagnosed as overtrained. All athletes performed two maximal exercise tests separated by 4 h. Blood was analyzed for cortisol, adrenocorticotrophic hormone (ACTH), growth hormone and prolactin (PRL). Performance decreased by 6% between the first and the second exercise test in the OR group and by 11% in the OT subject. Moreover, during the second exercise test there were more marked differences between the T and OR athletes; in particular, the OT subject did not show an increase in some of the hormonal responses. PRL increased only by 14% in the OT subject's second test and there was a 7% decrease in ACTH. The two exercise approach enables us to detect subtle performance decrements that will not be identified by one exercise trigger. The hormonal responses to the second exercise test were different between the T and OR athletes (the increase in the T group was higher than in the OR that was higher than in the OT). The results of the case presentation of an overtrained athlete provide evidence of an altered and dysfunctional hypothalamic-pituitary axis response to two bouts of maximal exercise. These findings can be used to develop markers for diagnosis of OTS and to begin to address the pathologic mechanism operative in the syndrome, as well as providing an outcome measure to evaluate possible therapeutic regimes.

    3-A practical approach to the overtraining syndrome.

    Pearce PZ.

    The Rockwood Clinic, 14408 East Sprague Street, Spokane, WA 99216, USA. pzpearce@rockwoodclinic.com

    The overtraining syndrome is a chronic fatiguing illness that affects highly motivated endurance athletes. It is characterized by declining performance when maintaining a normal training program. The cause seems to be failure of adaptation within the neuroendocrine system, due to inadequate periods of rest. The onset is insidious and unfortunately, once it manifests, the only treatment is rest. This article discusses the known pathophysiology of overtraining, along with practical aspects of evaluation and treatment.

    4- Diagnosis of overtraining: what tools do we have?

    Urhausen A, Kindermann W.

    Institute of Sports and Preventive Medicine, Faculty of Clinical Medicine, University of Saarland, Saarbruecken, Germany.

    The multitude of publications regarding overtraining syndrome (OTS or 'staleness') or the short-term 'over-reaching' and the severity of consequences for the athlete are in sharp contrast with the limited availability of valid diagnostic tools. Ergometric tests may reveal a decrement in sport-specific performance if they are maximal tests until exhaustion. Overtrained athletes usually present an impaired anaerobic lactacid performance and a reduced time-to-exhaustion in standardised high-intensity endurance exercise accompanied by a small decrease in the maximum heart rate. Lactate levels are also slightly lowered during submaximal performance and this results in a slightly increased anaerobic threshold. A reduced respiratory exchange ratio during exercise still deserves further investigation. A deterioration of the mood state and typical subjective complaints ('heavy legs', sleep disorders) represent sensitive markers, however, they may be manipulated. Although measurements at rest of selected blood markers such as urea, uric acid, ammonia, enzymes (creatine kinase activity) or hormones including the ratio between (free) serum testosterone and cortisol, may serve to reveal circumstances which, for the long term, impair the exercise performance, they are not useful in the diagnosis of established OTS. The nocturnal urinary catecholamine excretion and the decrease in the maximum exercise-induced rise in pituitary hormones, especially adrenocorticotropic hormone and growth hormone, and, to a lesser degree, in cortisol and free plasma catecholamines, often provide interesting diagnostic information, but hormone measurements are less suitable in practical application. From a critical review of the existing overtraining research it must be concluded that there has been little improvement in recent years in the tools available for the diagnosis of OTS.

    5-Psychological and immunological correlates of acute overtraining.

    Fry RW, Grove JR, Morton AR, Zeroni PM, Gaudieri S, Keast D.

    Department of Microbiology, QEII Medical Centre, Nedlands, Western Australia.

    Five men undertook two intensive interval training sessions per day for 10 days, followed by 5 days of active recovery. Subjects supplied a venous blood sample and completed a mood-state questionnaire on days 1, 6, 11 and 16 of the study. Performance capabilities were assessed on days 1, 11 and 16 using a timed treadmill test to exhaustion at 18 kmh-1 and 1% grade. These individuals became acutely overtrained as indicated by significant reductions in running performance from day 1 to day 11. The overtrained state was accompanied by severe fatigue, immune system deficits, mood disturbance, physical complaints, sleep difficulties, and reduced appetite. Mood states moved toward baseline during recovery, but feelings of fatigue and immune system deficits persisted throughout the study

  18. #18
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    LOL + = me right at this minute.

    Must give you credit for going to all the effort of cutting and pasting an article for which the study of Overtraining Syndrome is researched - ALL of which refers to major overtraining. I wouldn't say it's normal to have soreness in the chest for 7 days plus. I'm not going over all this again. Hell i only suggested the man may be over doing it on the chest. But you've just got to be right i take it then yeah? You need to take a chill pill. But apologises for having an opinion on the matter. Goodday.
    I'm not moaning, i'm having an opinion.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by J450n83
    LOL + = me right at this minute.

    Must give you credit for going to all the effort of cutting and pasting an article for which the study of Overtraining Syndrome is researched - ALL of which refers to major overtraining..
    It's called research. I cut and pasted a few of the relevant abstracts from the 10 pages of them I read in pubmed. Maybe you should do some of that once in a while. Major overtraining? Are you inventing a new other kind of overtraining, besides your localized one? I'd love to hear it...


    Quote Originally Posted by J450n83
    I wouldn't say it's normal to have soreness in the chest for 7 days plus.... Hell i only suggested the man may be over doing it on the chest.
    AH!! Overdoing it? He might be doing that, and he might not. He could even be taking his training to the point of causing tissue necrosis but I seriously doubt anyone here could mantain this kind of training during any period of time. The fact is, the advice he has gotten here was pretty close to totally irrelevant, nad his chest will most likely not grow any bigger after this.

    Still wayting on your reasonings behind your claims.
    Last edited by restless; 02-14-2004 at 03:52 AM.

  20. #20
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    First off - I've already quoted what he said which led me to believe he may have been overtraining and i then said - "All seems to point to overtraining IMO." SEEMS - see the keyword there.. seems. I never said it was the law, it isn't set in stone, and it was just a suggestion. Why does this bother you so much??!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by restless
    The fact is, the advice he has gotten here was pretty close to totally irrelevant, nad his chest will most likely not grow any bigger after this.
    Well 'MisterEThoughts', 'andy51', 'Optimum08', and myself included - We are all wrong. Our opinion is wrong. We have no right. Restless is correct and what he say's is law. Truth and nothing but the truth --- Would that make you happy??! Make you feel any better?
    Your one of those people that HAS to 'win' all the time i guess.

    Shoot a guy down for giving a suggestion and having an opinion .
    I'm not moaning, i'm having an opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J450n83
    First off - I've already quoted what he said which led me to believe he may have been overtraining and i then said - "All seems to point to overtraining IMO." SEEMS - see the keyword there.. seems. I never said it was the law, it isn't set in stone, and it was just a suggestion. Why does this bother you so much??!?!



    Well 'MisterEThoughts', 'andy51', 'Optimum08', and myself included - We are all wrong. Our opinion is wrong. We have no right. Restless is correct and what he say's is law. Truth and nothing but the truth --- Would that make you happy??! Make you feel any better?
    Your one of those people that HAS to 'win' all the time i guess.

    Shoot a guy down for giving a suggestion and having an opinion .
    Well, maybe I'm getting tired of all the whiners crying out about overtraining everytime anyone speaks of hitting a muscle group more than once a week, and many times without even knowing the difference between training volume and frequency. Seems people just regurgitate this crap that goes over all internet forums ad nauseum and no one cares to learn a little and actually research things properly.

    Anyway, enough of this. If you felt offended, I apologize, but you were the one that made a clever remark about my first post like if the fact that everyone else shared your opinion actually served to make it credible. Well, it doesn't.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by restless
    Well, maybe I'm getting tired of all the whiners crying out about overtraining everytime anyone speaks of hitting a muscle group more than once a week, and many times without even knowing the difference between training volume and frequency. Seems people just regurgitate this crap that goes over all internet forums ad nauseum and no one cares to learn a little and actually research things properly.
    I am not one of those people.

    Anyway, enough of this. If you felt offended, I apologize, but you were the one that made a clever remark about my first post like if the fact that everyone else shared your opinion actually served to make it credible. Well, it doesn't.
    Nobody likes having their opinion rubbished. As for the other replies - I couldn't care less whether people agreed with me or not. It wasn't about that, it was only my opinion.

    I've said all i want to say on this matter so i'll leave it there.
    I'm not moaning, i'm having an opinion.

  23. #23
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    wow i jus got back from out of town, lotta replies... i answer no to most of the questions, except sometimes i do have a lost of strength in the chest. i might be able to build up strength like temporary, then eventually i will begin to lose strength or rest and when rest is over i have lost lots of strength and im in this neverending cycle. overtraining or not overtraining, what should i do? i've tried 2 moderate intensity workouts a week and there is not much difference? how much rest is too much rest?

    is soreness for 5 days too long? funny my friends dont get sore much and i do, it seems i get a better workout but they get bigger and i stay small, wtf. they say when u workout, work hard and i do and it seems to work in the rest of my body. for example when i squat my quads are sore for at least 5 days, and i only worked em once a week and they got stronger really fast. ive reachd a plateau now but thats fine cus i got lots of growth and i dont remember what my legs looked like a year ago. again i want to catch up my chest and get more proportioned.

    oh and i worked on my chest and back again this past saturday, its 4 in the morning on tuesday, my chest is sore and it will be for another couple days. i did 6 sets, jus like on wbb1. lots of other programs suggest many more sets, i dont believe more is better. once i workout with some buddys and did like 15 sets for chest. i was sore even longer and the following week i lost lots of strength, so i know thats no good for me. sounds stupid but am i training too hard? have i built my mind muscle link or my neuromuscular pathways to a point where i need to back off a little?

  24. #24
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    On your chest day why not just do dumbbell flies and cable flies, following the set and rep scheme WBB 1 states. If you want a bigger chest work your chest.
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    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
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    soreness for 5 days after you've been working out for a while does seem on the long side of normal.

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