The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    Wannabebig Member
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    What does overtraining consist of?

    Can you overtrain a muscle if you do too many excersizes, even if you only work it once a week?

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  3. #2
    100% chemically enchanced
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    Yes when muscles are fully trained they need 48hrs to rest. I usually just do 3 exercises for major muscles and 2 exersises for small muscles. Unless you take steriods you can train longer and harder.

  4. #3
    Equal Opportunity Offender Budiak's Avatar
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    Unless you take steriods you can train longer and harder.
    In the occasion that you take steroids, you can train longer and harder.

  5. #4
    Lift-a-holic ThreeD's Avatar
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    If you do too many exercises, and work a muscle group too hard you will break down more muscle fibres than you're able to rebuild, hence it has an opposite effect on your wish to gain size. (if gaining size is what you want)
    -=-* Losers make excuses - winners make it happen *-=-

  6. #5
    Senior Member always_losing's Avatar
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    You will struggle to over-train, esp doing a muscle once a week.

    If you do for some reason consistently train a muscle day after day you will feel your body saying no.

    If you eat well, you will struggle even more to overtrain.

  7. #6
    HomeYield WillKuenzel's Avatar
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    I personally think overtraining is tossed out a bit more often than it occurs but it can happen. If you are spending 3 hours training biceps once a week then you are likely going to be overtraining.

    What bodypart and how many exercises are you talking about? What is your split? If we saw what you are talking about we might have a better idea.
    What is elite?
    "Those who work the hardest often complain the least." -anonymous
    Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daz
    Yes when muscles are fully trained they need 48hrs to rest.
    No they don't.

    Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

  9. #8
    bone crusher
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    it is a gradual process whereby your destruction of the muscle fibres outpace the body's ability to recover and repair the damaged tissue by increasing its size and strength

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by the doc
    it is a gradual process whereby your destruction of the muscle fibres outpace the body's ability to recover and repair the damaged tissue by increasing its size and strength
    I seriously doubt anyone here has inflicted (or even can inflict) enough damage on muscle fibers trough regular bodybuilding training to even get close to this scenario.

    If someone says to me that under extreme volume you can outperform the body's hability to replenish muscle glycogen to the point of it actually preventing any hypertrophic response, then I'll concurr, but actual tissue necrosis?

    The real overtraining I know, and this is the one that you can actually find referenced in scientifc literature, is of systemic nature, and honestly I think I can count on the fingers of one hand the posters on this forum that actually have a clue on what it's about.

    Once again I will invite the posters that mention this "muscle recovery" process to explain in detail what the hell they're talking about so we can go trough it.

  11. #10
    Wannabebig Member
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    I am asking because I am doing Chest and Tri's on the same day on a 4 day routine. I do shoulders monday, legs-tuesday, wed- off, thursday chest and tris, and friday- back and bi's. By doing chest and tri's on the same day which means I am working my tri's in almost every exercise. Heres my routine.

    Bench alt to Dumbell- 3 sets
    Incline alt to dumbell- 3 sets
    Decline alt to dumbell 3 sets
    Cable Crossover 2 sets
    Dips - 1 set failure
    Then I pick 3 out of these 4 Tri Exersizes
    Reverse bench- 2 sets
    Tri Pushdowns -2 sets
    Machine Extensions- 2 sets
    Chair Dips - 2 sets

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lift You Waste
    I am asking because I am doing Chest and Tri's on the same day on a 4 day routine. I do shoulders monday, legs-tuesday, wed- off, thursday chest and tris, and friday- back and bi's. By doing chest and tri's on the same day which means I am working my tri's in almost every exercise. Heres my routine.

    Bench alt to Dumbell- 3 sets
    Incline alt to dumbell- 3 sets
    Decline alt to dumbell 3 sets
    Cable Crossover 2 sets
    Dips - 1 set failure
    Then I pick 3 out of these 4 Tri Exersizes
    Reverse bench- 2 sets
    Tri Pushdowns -2 sets
    Machine Extensions- 2 sets
    Chair Dips - 2 sets
    First of all, your routine is, at best, a briliant exercise in redundancy and at the worst, completely counterproductive to a natural trainee.

    Why regular, incline and decline bench? Do you actually think that you're htting different muscle fibers with each of them?

    While I don't believe any of this muscle related overtraining crap, your routine is probably one of those that manages to deplet glycogen to the point of halting protein synthesis and preventing muscle growth.

    Of all of that I would keep regular bench and dips, and do those at least 2 times a week. The rest is unnecessary.

  13. #12
    Senior Member Gavan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lift You Waste
    Can you overtrain a muscle if you do too many excersizes, even if you only work it once a week?
    It depends of you definition of overtraining. For Mike Mentzer overtraining happends when you do something that isn't necessary to achieve muscular growth. So if you do too many exercises yes you are overtrained because you don't need 3-5-10 different exercises per muscles group. If you do too much sets you are overtrained because doing more than one set or 6-10 heavy repetitions does very little if not nothing for muscles.
    Gain Muscles ? Overload !
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  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavan
    Why regular, incline and decline bench? Do you actually think that you're htting different muscle fibers with each of them?
    Actually you do. Theres different sections of the pectoral muscles which you can train from different positions. Its always good to do the excercise in as many different ways and styles as possible. its not about hitting isolated sections of a muscle fiber, its about hitting all the fibers in the muscle group. Its impossible to do that through just one excercise alone.

  15. #14
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    Also, overtraining means you train so much that you do more damage than your body can handle. This depends on genetics, eating habits, and a lot of other factors.


    Generally you should train 2 muscle groups per week, once a week, unless you are on steriods or have good genes which allow you to train every single day.


    because you don't need 3-5-10 different exercises per muscles group.
    Are you saying you can exercise every single muscle in the arm just by doing a bicep curl? Yes you do need to do the excercise in different ways because theres no way to get ALL the muscle fibers by just doing one exercise.

    In reality, the way the muscles actually work, these stiff excercises arent truely training all the fibers, the best thing you can do is vary your style. Overtaining has nothing to do with how you train and everything to do with genetics. If you have the genes or Mike Tyson, then you can train all day long and lift weights every day and never be sore, never over train, and always get bigger. If you are a normal person, you'll only be able to do this once a week, maybe twice.

    depleting glycogen does not make much sense if someone only trains one or two muscle groups per week. Its certainly possible. I think its more likely that they arent getting enough protien, enough calories, enough sleep, or they just have bad genes, all of these factors are going to prevent you from having muscle growth. Unless you are on some low carb diet, how are you going to completely deplet glycogen stores? Especially in small muscle groups like the arms or chest.
    Last edited by Lucian; 03-15-2004 at 12:55 PM.

  16. #15
    bone crusher
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    Quote Originally Posted by restless
    I seriously doubt anyone here has inflicted (or even can inflict) enough damage on muscle fibers trough regular bodybuilding training to even get close to this scenario.

    If someone says to me that under extreme volume you can outperform the body's hability to replenish muscle glycogen to the point of it actually preventing any hypertrophic response, then I'll concurr, but actual tissue necrosis?

    The real overtraining I know, and this is the one that you can actually find referenced in scientifc literature, is of systemic nature, and honestly I think I can count on the fingers of one hand the posters on this forum that actually have a clue on what it's about.

    Once again I will invite the posters that mention this "muscle recovery" process to explain in detail what the hell they're talking about so we can go trough it.
    please post this study as i am always willing to learn new information

    what i posted is based on the common description (perhaps a misconception) and i never implied tissue necrosis was part of this
    Last edited by the doc; 03-15-2004 at 12:52 PM.

  17. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by the doc
    please post this study as i am always willing to learn new information

    what i posted is based on the common description (perhaps a misconception) and i never implied tissue necrosis was part of this
    The doc, if there was a study on this which proves without a doubt that overtraining is actually just depleted glycogen, it would change the training programs of thousands of bodybuilders and atheletes. I'd like to see a study as well, but from my experience overtraining can EASILY happen. if its all about depleted glycogen, someone should release a new drink or powder to solve this problem while at the same time not causing a great huge insulin spike (which is bad for dieters), then someone could simply drink it with their protien shake and never worry about over training again.

  18. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucian
    Actually you do. Theres different sections of the pectoral muscles which you can train from different positions. Its always good to do the excercise in as many different ways and styles as possible. its not about hitting isolated sections of a muscle fiber, its about hitting all the fibers in the muscle group. Its impossible to do that through just one excercise alone.
    What?? Please tell me you're joking....What the hell is this place coming to?

    Bench press hits all muscle fibers in the muscle, it's quite simply a matter of the load being heavy enough. What you can do, is to decrease the amount of involvement of the minor pectoralis by using incline or decrease the involvement of the major pecs by doing decline but you can't really increase the activation rate of any of the two muscles over what can be achieved in the bench press. And of course, activation doesn't mean much in what concerns the effectivness of inducing the hypertrophic stimulus in the natural trainee. And don't even dare suggesting you can actually change the activation rate of the sternal and clavicular heads of the pectoralis major because if you do, Ill be forced to quite simply ignore everything else you might say on this thread.

  19. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by the doc
    please post this study as i am always willing to learn new information
    I'll try to find the paper I had that reviewed most of the previous research on the subject. I'm pretty sure it's somwehere in my backup CD's, but it won't be easy to find it....

  20. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucian
    The doc, if there was a study on this which proves without a doubt that overtraining is actually just depleted glycogen, it would change the training programs of thousands of bodybuilders and atheletes. I'd like to see a study as well, but from my experience overtraining can EASILY happen. if its all about depleted glycogen, someone should release a new drink or powder to solve this problem while at the same time not causing a great huge insulin spike (which is bad for dieters), then someone could simply drink it with their protien shake and never worry about over training again.
    You're clearly having some problems understanding my posts. Overtraining syndrome goes well beyond glycogen depletion. It's a neural, endocrine and immune systems disorder that happens when the BODY is put on a greater workload than it's able to recover from. I've been through it three years ago and I never recovered fully from it.

  21. #20
    bone crusher
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    restless all i need is the citation, i literally have access to hundreds of journals

  22. #21
    bone crusher
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    Quote Originally Posted by restless
    ...It's a neural, endocrine and immune systems disorder that happens when the BODY is put on a greater workload than it's able to recover from...
    this is really what i should have said.
    cheers!

  23. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by the doc
    restless all i need is the citation, i literally have access to hundreds of journals
    Damn it, I couldn't find it anywhere in the first 20 pages of goole results on "overtraining syndrome".

    I did find this though:

    http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/...603/hawley.htm

    It has some cool references at the bottom that I too have to check out.

    Honestly, all I'm trying to make people see is that this issue goes way beyond the oversimplistic "too much volume, no time for muscle to recover" usual talk.

    I'll try to find the other one for you. I know some people at weightrainer have it as I gave it to them, so I'll try to find it there.

  24. #23
    bone crusher
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    Quote Originally Posted by restless
    Damn it, I couldn't find it anywhere in the first 20 pages of goole results on "overtraining syndrome".

    I did find this though:

    http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/...603/hawley.htm

    It has some cool references at the bottom that I too have to check out.

    Honestly, all I'm trying to make people see is that this issue goes way beyond the oversimplistic "too much volume, no time for muscle to recover" usual talk.

    I'll try to find the other one for you. I know some people at weightrainer have it as I gave it to them, so I'll try to find it there.
    i definitely agree with you, it is complicated

    i appreciate you looking into it

  25. #24
    zen idiot Scott S's Avatar
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    BTW, I agree with restless on the bench issue. Both heads (sternal and clavicular) are maximally activated during flat bench, so there is little reason to do anything else for chest.

  26. #25
    Senior Member geoffgarcia's Avatar
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    Physical Overtraining
    Acute:
    body exhausted after bout
    glycogen depleted
    sympathetic response elevated
    cortisol levels increase

    Chronic:
    body becomes weaker over time
    glycogen depleted over time
    Parasympathetic response
    Increased cortisol levels

    Sympathetic:
    Increased resting heart rate
    Increased resting blood pressure
    Decreased maximal power output
    Decreased sports performance
    Decreased maximal blood lactate concentrations
    Slower recovery after exercise
    Weight loss
    Decreased appetite
    Decreased desire to exercise
    Increased irritability and depression
    Increased incidence of injury
    Increased incidence of infection

    ParaSympathetic:
    Decreased resting heart rate
    Faster return of heart rate to resting value after exercise
    Decreased sports performance
    Decreased blood lactate concentrations during submaximal and maximal exercise
    Unemotional behavior
    test
    Last edited by geoffgarcia; 03-16-2004 at 01:46 PM.

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