The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
Latest Article

The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
More Recent Articles
Contrast Training for Size
By: Lee Boyce
An Interview with Marianne Kane of Girls Gone Strong
By: Jordan Syatt
What Supplements Should I be Taking? By: Jay Wainwright
Bench Like a Girl By: Julia Ladewski
Some Thoughts on Building a Big Pull By: Christopher Mason

Facebook Join Facebook Group       Twitter Follow on Twitter       rss Subscribe via RSS
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 38
  1. #1
    Work in progress
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    32

    How much Cardio is TOO much cardio if trying to lose weight/fat?

    I was doing about 30 mins of basketball to kind of warm up

    30 mins on the Reebok Body Peak cardio machine

    Then lifting for like 20 mins

    Then doing a mile on the treadmill in like 15 mins

    Is this too much cardio?

    Today, I shot around (b ball) for like 40 mins

    Did 30 mins on Reebok Body Peak

    Then weight lifted, circuit training for 30 mins and cut out the extra mile on the treadmill.

    I was reading an article on The Rock and he was talking about how when he was cutting...when he was working 1-2 body parts a day...he just wasn't using enough of his body to burn enough calories to burn fat...

    So today when I lifted,,,i did leg presses 3 sets,,,bench press 3 sets,,,dips 3 sets,,,lat pull downs 3 sets. I felt more winded after circuit training than before when i'd weight train 1 or 2 body parts w/out circuit and doing another mile on treadmill. Is keeping this up a good idea? Am I better off cutting out SOME of the cardio and just circuit training 4 body parts when lifting?

    I work out 4 times a week by the way...

    i'm 5'8" 238lbs...used to be a little over 300lbs so i've already dropped a nice amount...but obviously it's getting harder and harder to lose. My goal is between 190-200 but i have a lot of body fat to lose. Mostly from my mid section and chest. Waist is about 44.

  2.    Support Wannabebig and use AtLarge Nutrition Supplements!


  3. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    101
    1. Do weight before cardio. Even better weights on diff day.

    2. Over 45mins is way too much. I prefer HIIT and blast it for only 15min.

    3. Get a diet sorted. thats the most important in loosing fat.

    IMO cardio should only be used to ensure a negative calorie balance. & too much cardio can be catabolic. IE loose muscle. make sure u get plenty of protein after workouts. HIIT imo opinion is better suited for me. as i hate cardio and getting to over with ASAP is what im after. + the benifits of HIIT over slow/long cardio are massive. IE increased metabolism after cardio.

  4. #3
    Work in progress
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy P
    1. Do weight before cardio. Even better weights on diff day.

    2. Over 45mins is way too much. I prefer HIIT and blast it for only 15min.

    3. Get a diet sorted. thats the most important in loosing fat.

    IMO cardio should only be used to ensure a negative calorie balance. & too much cardio can be catabolic. IE loose muscle. make sure u get plenty of protein after workouts. HIIT imo opinion is better suited for me. as i hate cardio and getting to over with ASAP is what im after. + the benifits of HIIT over slow/long cardio are massive. IE increased metabolism after cardio.
    What are some good HIIT cardio exercises?

  5. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    183
    yes you are doing way to much cardio

  6. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    3,028
    If your goal is to lose weight my best advice to you is to count your calories, you cannot fail if you do this. If you are already doing this and still having difficulties ask yourself this, are your calories too low? If they are, have a refeed day once a week. This will allow you to bring your calories back up, most likely to the level you were eating when you started your cut. Rinse and repeat, you will lose as much weight as needed like this.

    About your cardio I do not think it is too much, but I think the order is not optimal. I think you should make an effort to seperate the weight and cardio sessions. Doing weight training and cardio on the same day is fine but seperating the sessions by several hours would be ideal. If you cannot seperate the sessions make sure you do not work out on empty stomach, and then after your weight training have a fast digesting carb/protein, and then do your cardio. Again it is ideal to seperate the two activities but it can be difficult depending on your schedule.

    As for HIIT that is fine but make sure it does not interfere with your lifting. Typically HIIT is much more high impact. Do not rely on this for weight loss, you will just run in circles forever if you do.

    Again let me emphasize that you should rely on manipulating your caloric intake to lose weight. The weight training, cardio, and HIIT are just there to let you burn a few extra calories, help with nutrient paritioning, and help you maintain/possibly add a little muscle if your training is in check. Goodluck.
    Last edited by Dedicated; 05-22-2004 at 02:40 PM.

  7. #6
    Senior Member Ebu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Syracuse, New York
    Posts
    473
    He's saying he wants to loose a lot of body fat, never did he mention he wants to gain a lot of muscle. No, your not doing too much cardio.
    "Color outside the lines"

  8. #7
    Work in progress
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by Dedicated
    If your goal is to lose weight my best advice to you is to count your calories, you cannot fail if you do this. If you are already doing this and still having difficulties ask yourself this, are your calories too low? If they are, have a refeed day once a week. This will allow you to bring your calories back up, most likely to the level you were eating when you started your cut. Rinse and repeat, you will lose as much weight as needed like this.

    About your cardio I do not think it is too much, but I think the order is not optimal. I think you should make an effort to seperate the weight and cardio sessions. Doing weight training and cardio on the same day is fine but seperating the sessions by several hours would be ideal. If you cannot seperate the sessions make sure you do not work out on empty stomach, and then after your weight training have a fast digesting carb/protein, and then do your cardio. Again it is ideal to seperate the two activities but it can be difficult depending on your schedule.

    As for HIIT that is fine but make sure it does not interfere with your lifting. Typically HIIT is much more high impact. Do not rely on this for weight loss, you will just run in circles forever if you do.

    Again let me emphasize that you should rely on manipulating your caloric intake to lose weight. The weight training, cardio, and HIIT are just there to let you burn a few extra calories, help with nutrient paritioning, and help you maintain/possibly add a little muscle if your training is in check. Goodluck.
    Great info...

    I posted in another thread about how I was consistantly losing 1-2 pounds a week for like 2 months...then I stopped losing...i saw somewhere on here where someone who had the same problem should reset their metabolism by getting off their usual diet and doing a refeed for a couple of days...i did this...basically having 3 days of cheat meals each day...then went back on my diet and dropped like 3 lbs that week (this was last week). So i'll most definetly keep doing that ever 6 weeks or so and cheat still like once a week.

    Yes, I want to lose fat and gain some muscle as well which I know is hard, but my main priority is burning fat. I'm already a pretty stocky guy.

    I eat about 2000 calories a day. I'm 5'8" 230. My ideal weight is around 190-200. I still want to be big...just more muscular. I'm hearing my calories is too low, but i'm worried about putting on weight if I eat more than that.

  9. #8
    I wannabebig!
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    in my own world
    Posts
    1,818
    Im gaining muscle and a good rate while performing cardio at least 5x a week..

  10. #9
    Wannabebig Member Podium Kreatin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    san francisco
    Posts
    1,034
    sorry to burst ur bubble, but excercise isn't that effective in losing fat. it does contribute, but u'll lose protein and blood sugar and creatine FIRST, before fat oxidation starts! the reason being is fat is not designed to be for rapid muscle contractions, but for metabolic functions (BMR). this is why cardio in the morning, before breakfast, is preferred if u want to lose fat, b/c right when u wake up, u lost a lot of blood sugar.

    NOTE: altho the actual cardio doesn't really lose much fat, doing cardio consistently can indirectly help u lose fat by directly boosting BMR by strengthening ur heart, increase slow twitch muscle, and increase the size of ur mitochondria (the organelles involved in oxidizing fat). if u want to lose fat by cardio, u should not do it so that ur super exhausted (imo, the amt of time that u do for cardio varies a lot depending on ur endurance), but rather, follow a consistent schedule that allows u to recover before the next session of cardio. if u do cardio til ur super exhausted, it usually means u lost a lot of muscle.
    Last edited by Podium Kreatin; 05-22-2004 at 08:35 PM.
    "No one can completely believe that I am natural.
    The most important drug is to train like a madman
    -really like a madman
    The people who accuse me are those who have never trained once in their life as I train every day of my life."

    Alexandr Karelin
    Ten-time World Greco-Roman Champion
    1988, 1992, 1996 Olympic gold medalist

    current stats (10/19/03): 20yrs, M, 5'4 @160lbs, ~11% body fat
    lifted since march 2000
    occupation:MCB major @ uc berkeley

  11. #10
    heading to 195
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    greatness
    Posts
    951
    u go to ohio state?

  12. #11
    Wannabebig Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    35
    I personally think there is no such thing as too much cardio. However, depending on what your goals are maybe it is.

    What Podium Kreatin said is true and false. If you want to lose weight, the best way is to work out on an empty stomach right after wake up. It will increase your metabolism and studies have shown that fat is burned much fast - up too 300% faster when you exercise in the morning as opposed to in the afternoon. Not only that, if your main goal is to lose weight, after you do cardio wait an hour before eating. After you do some "high intensity cardio" your metabolism is reved up some time after working out, burning extra calories.

    Podium said "but excercise isn't that effective in losing fat" I totally have to disagree. Excercise is a totally effective way of losing fat. It is true that you have to watch what you eat(basically you have to burn more calories then you consume), but without exercise people would not be able to lose weight(unless they take some kind of pill which I am totally against). Like I said before, by exercising in the morning you dip into you energy store(fat) because your blood suger is low. That's when you start to use up your excess calories you stored away. However, working out for too long can definitely do more harm then good. It can eat away at your hard earned muscles.

    You should just maybe do 20 mins of cardio at high intensity. This a good method i read in a book. First warm up for 2 min at a intensity level of 5. 1 being the least(like lifting a fork to your mouth), 10 being near death. Then after that bring it up to a 6 intensity for a min. Then after that bring it up to a 7 intensity for a min, then a 8 intensity for a min, then a 9 intensity for a min, then bring it back to a 6 min. Do this cycle 3 times. On the last one after the 9 intensity, you give it everything and do an all-out 10 intensity(you should be having a near death experience :-) for a min. Then bring it back to a 5 intensity and your done. The workout plan the books suggests is to lift mon, wed, fri and do cardio for tue, thrus, sat. Sun be a cheat day only.

    It think this a good balence of cardio. It's not to long and it won't tax your hard earned muscles. I don't know how intense the cardio you were doing, but if it is intense, then I think you're doing to much cardio.

    No matter what, consistancy is key.
    Do whatever it takes!
    Good Luck.

  13. #12
    Banned KingJustin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    3,025
    "2. Over 45mins is way too much. I prefer HIIT and blast it for only 15min."

    Not that HIIT is a bad idea, but running for an hour is a great way to burn an awful lot of fat as your body begins to oxydize(?) fat for fuel (I believe that's what happens, at any rate it targets fat) after 20 minutes of increased heart rate.


    "I personally think there is no such thing as too much cardio."

    This is blatantly wrong. I ran cross country 4 years, track a couple and I see people overtraining with just running all the time. They would simply run too much and it would cause them to get slower.


    "What Podium Kreatin said is true and false. If you want to lose weight, the best way is to work out on an empty stomach right after wake up"

    Yeah, that's great if you want to lose muscle. Have at least a protein shake (with water) and maybe a banana before you run if it's in the morning.


    "It will increase your metabolism and studies have shown that fat is burned much fast - up too 300% faster when you exercise in the morning as opposed to in the afternoon."

    I'd be interested in seeing the study.


    Anyways, I agree that you should be doing cardio, but not before weights for sure. You need to make sure that after running you have gone into caloric deficit. Running for around 45 minutes to an hour or doing HIIT should probably be what constitutes most of your cardio, as it will help target fat..
    Last edited by KingJustin; 05-23-2004 at 09:35 AM.

  14. #13
    Work in progress
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by snow
    u go to ohio state?
    No. Are you in Columbus?

  15. #14
    Wannabebig Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    35
    The book I got all the infomation from is call Body-for-Life by Bill Philips. I don't know if he's the best fitness expert in the world, but he definitely has transformed many people within 12 weeks. I personally don't follow everything he says, but he does have proven methods that work. I didn't notice till recently, but there are lots of people who follow his book and have really achieved a "Body-for-Life".

    "It will increase your metabolism and studies have shown that fat is burned much fast(er) - up too 300% faster when you exercise in the morning as opposed to in the afternoon."

    This is a quote from his book. He doesn't supply the data but I don't think he's lying.

    "I personally think there is no such thing as too much cardio."
    The reason I said this was because of an interview I saw on tv. It was on some public access channel in Hawaii and they had just finished some big marathon. They were interviewing this old guy who just finished. The interviewer was asking him question on how the run was and stuff like that and the guy(runner) was talking all incoherently and stuff. Then finally, the interviewer asked the guy how old he was, and he said he was 100. That there was definitely motivation for me to run more often.
    Right now I'm thinking of a nice, big, juicy burger done medium on a charcol grill with melted, extra sharp cheddar cheese, 3 strips of thick bacon, lettuce, tomato, creamy mayo on a toasted bun with a side order of freshly cut, crispy french fries, and a side order of freshly home-battered, thick, crispy onion rings with a bottle of Heinz ketcup and a large coke. Awwwwhhh....

  16. #15
    heading to 195
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    greatness
    Posts
    951
    Quote Originally Posted by GrindingOut
    No. Are you in Columbus?
    yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah i got 2 o state.

  17. #16
    Work in progress
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by snow
    yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah i got 2 o state.
    LOL

    I go to Franklin

  18. #17
    Work in progress
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by snow
    yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah i got 2 o state.
    Funny journal...you most def sound like an OSU student...I like to kick it down there...(Ole School, Lidos, Alcatraz a couple times)

  19. #18
    Banned KingJustin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    3,025
    "The reason I said this was because of an interview I saw on tv. It was on some public access channel in Hawaii and they had just finished some big marathon. They were interviewing this old guy who just finished. The interviewer was asking him question on how the run was and stuff like that and the guy(runner) was talking all incoherently and stuff. Then finally, the interviewer asked the guy how old he was, and he said he was 100. That there was definitely motivation for me to run more often."

    There's no doubt that being thin and reasonably active and taking care of yourself will increase longevity...


    "It will increase your metabolism and studies have shown that fat is burned much fast(er) - up too 300% faster when you exercise in the morning as opposed to in the afternoon."

    I'd be interested in a famous Aka reply on this one but at the least even if fat is burned faster in the morning you still can't run on an empty stomach if you want to keep your hard earned muscle. It is just catabolic. I recall a study performed on rats where one was fed whey protein, one slow digesting protein and one nothing and all performed cardio in the morning. The rat with the whey protein had lost significantly less muscle than the other rats.

  20. #19
    Senior Member aka23's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    3,387
    I believe that this thread has lots of incorrect and/or misleasing information. I do not have time to address everything right now, so I will start will the things I consider most important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Podium Kreatin
    sorry to burst ur bubble, but excercise isn't that effective in losing fat. it does contribute, but u'll lose protein and blood sugar and creatine FIRST, before fat oxidation starts! the reason being is fat is not designed to be for rapid muscle contractions, but for metabolic functions (BMR).
    Your body is almost always burning a mixture of fat and glucose/gylcogen. When at rest the average person gets about 65% of calories from fat and 35% of calories from glycogen/glucose. Your body also burns a mixture of glucose/glycogen and fat througout aerobic exrcise, whether you are working out an empty stomach or not.

    When glycogen stores decrease as the exercise continues, the body utilizes a larger portion of fat as fuel. Costill's studies of treadmill running at 65% VO2 max found fat oxidation accounted for 39% of the energy at the start of the exercise and 67% of the energy 2 hours later. Ahlborg found similar results of increasing fat usage when the exercise continued for 4 hours (at a lower intensity). One could expect a similar fat burning increase if the aerobic cardio followed weightlifting of the glycogen-depleting type (long sets, short rest).


    Quote Originally Posted by Podium Kreatin
    but u'll lose protein and blood sugar and creatine FIRST
    Quote Originally Posted by Podium Kreatin
    if u do cardio til ur super exhausted, it usually means u lost a lot of muscle.
    A small portion of energy comes from proteins, but this amount is usually insignificant. It usually only becomes significant when glycogen levels get very low or in certain other special situations.

    The risk of catabolism is dependent on exercise intensity, exercise duration, diet, when exercise is performed, and previous training, among other things. I believe that there is little risk of muscle catabolism as a result of exercise unless the exercise is done in extreme conditions. Protein is generally not a significant source of fuel in exercise. It may become significant in extreme conditions that deplete glycogen levels, especially liver glycogen. Liver glycogen levels fall in a more linear manner than muscle glycogen. Muscle glycogen levels do not drop as quickly at lower levels, as fat usage increases.

    This might include exercise done when initial glycogen levels are low (for example in morning on empty stomach or after glycogen depleting type weight training); several hours of continuous moderate intensity exercise; or HIIT in which sprints totaled roughly 30 minutes to an hour, depnding on many factors such as intensity. I believe Hultman & Bosch's research suggested roughly 50% muscle glycogen depeltion after 6+ hours at 50% VO2Max, ~2hours 40min at 70% VO2Max, ~1 hour 40 min at 75% VO2Max, ~1 hour at 85% VO2Max, ~30 minutes at 120%VO2Max (sprint HIIT), and ~15 minutes at 150% VO2Max (sprint HIIT). Even under conditions of complete muscle glycgoen depletion, protein still only accounts for a small portion energy usage during exercise. The study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...5&dopt=Abstract at 60% VO2Max for 1 hour under complete CHO depletion estimated ~10% of energy usage was from protein. It is important to note that protein usage does not equal muscle catabolism. Much of the protein comes from other sources. In short, I think there is little to worry about unless the exercise is done in unusual conditions such as after fasting, or while on a low-carb diet.

    During the first 4 months of my jounal on this site, I did cardio every day while bulking for a median duration of 1 hour. In this period I averaged ~0.75lb LBM gain per week, made large strength gains including on legs/calve exercises, and lost a small amount of body fat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacificmonarch
    If you want to lose weight, the best way is to work out on an empty stomach right after wake up. It will increase your metabolism and studies have shown that fat is burned much fast - up too 300% faster when you exercise in the morning as opposed to in the afternoon. Not only that, if your main goal is to lose weight, after you do cardio wait an hour before eating. After you do some "high intensity cardio" your metabolism is reved up some time after working out, burning extra calories.
    Doing "high intensity cardio" on an empty stomach is a recipe for muscle catabolism. Protein usage as fuel is closely tied to low glycogen levels, especially liver glycogen. Working out in the morning on an empty stomach is about the worst possible conditions other than extended fasting, in terms of catabolism. After an overnight fast, your liver glycogen levels may be nearly depleted. Your muscles may have a lot of glycogen left, but your brain cannot cannot use the muscle glycogen, so there is an increased risk of the body catabolizing muscle to get fuel for the brain. The amount of this risk depends on the type of cardio among other things. Higher intensity or longer duration increases risk because there is a greater demand for glycogen. Total fat loss (not just during activity) increases with the intensity or duration of the cardio. After an overnight fast, you are likely to have reduced endurance and more fatigue so both intensity and duration may decrease. If your goal is to lose fat while preserving muscle, then doing cardio on an empty stomach or any other time when glycogen levels are low (for example immediately after weightlifting) is probably a bad idea.

    If your goal is to get rid of that last little bit of stubborn fat, then the increased fat mobilization related to the low glycogen levels may be beneficial. Many pro bodybuilders do empty stomach type cardio in conjuction with various supplements that also increase fat mobilization. If you choose to workout in the morning, then such effects could be lessened by eating something beforehand, reducing intensity, and/or drugs/supplements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacificmonarch
    "It will increase your metabolism and studies have shown that fat is burned much fast(er) - up too 300% faster when you exercise in the morning as opposed to in the afternoon."

    This is a quote from his book. He doesn't supply the data but I don't think he's lying.
    The quote sounds like nonsense. Earlier I stated that Costill's studies of treadmill running at 65% VO2 max found fat oxidation accounted for 39% of the energy at the start of the exercise and 67% of the energy 2 hours later. 300% faster would mean deriving 148% of the energy from fat at the start of the exercise and 268% of the energy from fat 2 hours later. Obviously no more than 100% of energy can come from a paticular source. If the 300% quote is based on a real study, then I expect that it involved unusual conditions, such as comparing an empty stomach to immediately after a meal. If I have some time, I will search for real numbers later. I would not be surprisd if the 300% quote was based on a study that found 30%.

    In any case, I think total fat loss is more important than fat loss during the activty. Total fat loss closely tied to calorie balance. If you burn a larger portion of calories from fat during the cardio, then you usually burn a smaller portion of calories from fat later in the day. Similarly if you burn a larger portion of calories from glycogen during the cardio, then you usually burn a larger portion of calories from fat later in the day. In this way calorie balance becomes the primary factor that determines fat loss.

    The increased metabolism is closely tied to intensity. I would not expect much of an increase in metabolism unless the exercise is done at a high intensity. One study came to the conclusion, ""light exercise could be expected to lead to burning an extra 5-10 calories afterwards; moderate to an extra 12-35 calories. In contrast, strenuous exercise was shown to increase post-exercise energy burning by a huge 180 calories."" You will still get a post exercise burn whether you do the exercise in the morning or afternoon.
    Last edited by aka23; 05-23-2004 at 02:02 PM.

  21. #20
    heading to 195
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    greatness
    Posts
    951
    u don't post on SOHH, do u?

  22. #21
    Work in progress
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by snow
    u don't post on SOHH, do u?
    Possibly hahaha

  23. #22
    Senior Member Ebu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Syracuse, New York
    Posts
    473
    aka23, PLEASE tell me you copy and pasted that...
    "Color outside the lines"

  24. #23
    Senior Member aka23's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    3,387
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebu
    aka23, PLEASE tell me you copy and pasted that...
    Most of it was cut and pasted from other posts I have written on this forum. You can find the earlier posts with the search function.

  25. #24
    back at it Beast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    0
    aka knows his ****.

    D 435 / S 340 / B 305

    Journal

    "I avoid talking to normal people about this stuff as much as possible. It's usually a waste of time." - HahnB

    "OMG HE EETS 2 MUCH0RZ!!111 O NOES HE EETS TEH FATS!!!111" - PowerManDL

    "Test does a body good." - Severed Ties

  26. #25
    Work in progress
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by Beast
    aka knows his ****.
    Yea but I really didn't understand most of that...

    Still confused on the best time of day, intensity and duration that I should do cardio to increase fat burning...

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •