The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
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    How much Cardio is TOO much cardio if trying to lose weight/fat?

    I was doing about 30 mins of basketball to kind of warm up

    30 mins on the Reebok Body Peak cardio machine

    Then lifting for like 20 mins

    Then doing a mile on the treadmill in like 15 mins

    Is this too much cardio?

    Today, I shot around (b ball) for like 40 mins

    Did 30 mins on Reebok Body Peak

    Then weight lifted, circuit training for 30 mins and cut out the extra mile on the treadmill.

    I was reading an article on The Rock and he was talking about how when he was cutting...when he was working 1-2 body parts a day...he just wasn't using enough of his body to burn enough calories to burn fat...

    So today when I lifted,,,i did leg presses 3 sets,,,bench press 3 sets,,,dips 3 sets,,,lat pull downs 3 sets. I felt more winded after circuit training than before when i'd weight train 1 or 2 body parts w/out circuit and doing another mile on treadmill. Is keeping this up a good idea? Am I better off cutting out SOME of the cardio and just circuit training 4 body parts when lifting?

    I work out 4 times a week by the way...

    i'm 5'8" 238lbs...used to be a little over 300lbs so i've already dropped a nice amount...but obviously it's getting harder and harder to lose. My goal is between 190-200 but i have a lot of body fat to lose. Mostly from my mid section and chest. Waist is about 44.

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  3. #2
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    1. Do weight before cardio. Even better weights on diff day.

    2. Over 45mins is way too much. I prefer HIIT and blast it for only 15min.

    3. Get a diet sorted. thats the most important in loosing fat.

    IMO cardio should only be used to ensure a negative calorie balance. & too much cardio can be catabolic. IE loose muscle. make sure u get plenty of protein after workouts. HIIT imo opinion is better suited for me. as i hate cardio and getting to over with ASAP is what im after. + the benifits of HIIT over slow/long cardio are massive. IE increased metabolism after cardio.

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy P
    1. Do weight before cardio. Even better weights on diff day.

    2. Over 45mins is way too much. I prefer HIIT and blast it for only 15min.

    3. Get a diet sorted. thats the most important in loosing fat.

    IMO cardio should only be used to ensure a negative calorie balance. & too much cardio can be catabolic. IE loose muscle. make sure u get plenty of protein after workouts. HIIT imo opinion is better suited for me. as i hate cardio and getting to over with ASAP is what im after. + the benifits of HIIT over slow/long cardio are massive. IE increased metabolism after cardio.
    What are some good HIIT cardio exercises?

  5. #4
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    yes you are doing way to much cardio

  6. #5
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    If your goal is to lose weight my best advice to you is to count your calories, you cannot fail if you do this. If you are already doing this and still having difficulties ask yourself this, are your calories too low? If they are, have a refeed day once a week. This will allow you to bring your calories back up, most likely to the level you were eating when you started your cut. Rinse and repeat, you will lose as much weight as needed like this.

    About your cardio I do not think it is too much, but I think the order is not optimal. I think you should make an effort to seperate the weight and cardio sessions. Doing weight training and cardio on the same day is fine but seperating the sessions by several hours would be ideal. If you cannot seperate the sessions make sure you do not work out on empty stomach, and then after your weight training have a fast digesting carb/protein, and then do your cardio. Again it is ideal to seperate the two activities but it can be difficult depending on your schedule.

    As for HIIT that is fine but make sure it does not interfere with your lifting. Typically HIIT is much more high impact. Do not rely on this for weight loss, you will just run in circles forever if you do.

    Again let me emphasize that you should rely on manipulating your caloric intake to lose weight. The weight training, cardio, and HIIT are just there to let you burn a few extra calories, help with nutrient paritioning, and help you maintain/possibly add a little muscle if your training is in check. Goodluck.
    Last edited by Dedicated; 05-22-2004 at 02:40 PM.

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dedicated
    If your goal is to lose weight my best advice to you is to count your calories, you cannot fail if you do this. If you are already doing this and still having difficulties ask yourself this, are your calories too low? If they are, have a refeed day once a week. This will allow you to bring your calories back up, most likely to the level you were eating when you started your cut. Rinse and repeat, you will lose as much weight as needed like this.

    About your cardio I do not think it is too much, but I think the order is not optimal. I think you should make an effort to seperate the weight and cardio sessions. Doing weight training and cardio on the same day is fine but seperating the sessions by several hours would be ideal. If you cannot seperate the sessions make sure you do not work out on empty stomach, and then after your weight training have a fast digesting carb/protein, and then do your cardio. Again it is ideal to seperate the two activities but it can be difficult depending on your schedule.

    As for HIIT that is fine but make sure it does not interfere with your lifting. Typically HIIT is much more high impact. Do not rely on this for weight loss, you will just run in circles forever if you do.

    Again let me emphasize that you should rely on manipulating your caloric intake to lose weight. The weight training, cardio, and HIIT are just there to let you burn a few extra calories, help with nutrient paritioning, and help you maintain/possibly add a little muscle if your training is in check. Goodluck.
    Great info...

    I posted in another thread about how I was consistantly losing 1-2 pounds a week for like 2 months...then I stopped losing...i saw somewhere on here where someone who had the same problem should reset their metabolism by getting off their usual diet and doing a refeed for a couple of days...i did this...basically having 3 days of cheat meals each day...then went back on my diet and dropped like 3 lbs that week (this was last week). So i'll most definetly keep doing that ever 6 weeks or so and cheat still like once a week.

    Yes, I want to lose fat and gain some muscle as well which I know is hard, but my main priority is burning fat. I'm already a pretty stocky guy.

    I eat about 2000 calories a day. I'm 5'8" 230. My ideal weight is around 190-200. I still want to be big...just more muscular. I'm hearing my calories is too low, but i'm worried about putting on weight if I eat more than that.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Ebu's Avatar
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    He's saying he wants to loose a lot of body fat, never did he mention he wants to gain a lot of muscle. No, your not doing too much cardio.
    "Color outside the lines"

  9. #8
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    Im gaining muscle and a good rate while performing cardio at least 5x a week..

  10. #9
    Wannabebig Member Podium Kreatin's Avatar
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    sorry to burst ur bubble, but excercise isn't that effective in losing fat. it does contribute, but u'll lose protein and blood sugar and creatine FIRST, before fat oxidation starts! the reason being is fat is not designed to be for rapid muscle contractions, but for metabolic functions (BMR). this is why cardio in the morning, before breakfast, is preferred if u want to lose fat, b/c right when u wake up, u lost a lot of blood sugar.

    NOTE: altho the actual cardio doesn't really lose much fat, doing cardio consistently can indirectly help u lose fat by directly boosting BMR by strengthening ur heart, increase slow twitch muscle, and increase the size of ur mitochondria (the organelles involved in oxidizing fat). if u want to lose fat by cardio, u should not do it so that ur super exhausted (imo, the amt of time that u do for cardio varies a lot depending on ur endurance), but rather, follow a consistent schedule that allows u to recover before the next session of cardio. if u do cardio til ur super exhausted, it usually means u lost a lot of muscle.
    Last edited by Podium Kreatin; 05-22-2004 at 08:35 PM.
    "No one can completely believe that I am natural.
    The most important drug is to train like a madman
    -really like a madman
    The people who accuse me are those who have never trained once in their life as I train every day of my life."

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    current stats (10/19/03): 20yrs, M, 5'4 @160lbs, ~11% body fat
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  11. #10
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    u go to ohio state?

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by snow
    u go to ohio state?
    No. Are you in Columbus?

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrindingOut
    No. Are you in Columbus?
    yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah i got 2 o state.

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by snow
    yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah i got 2 o state.
    LOL

    I go to Franklin

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by snow
    yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah i got 2 o state.
    Funny journal...you most def sound like an OSU student...I like to kick it down there...(Ole School, Lidos, Alcatraz a couple times)

  16. #15
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    I personally think there is no such thing as too much cardio. However, depending on what your goals are maybe it is.

    What Podium Kreatin said is true and false. If you want to lose weight, the best way is to work out on an empty stomach right after wake up. It will increase your metabolism and studies have shown that fat is burned much fast - up too 300% faster when you exercise in the morning as opposed to in the afternoon. Not only that, if your main goal is to lose weight, after you do cardio wait an hour before eating. After you do some "high intensity cardio" your metabolism is reved up some time after working out, burning extra calories.

    Podium said "but excercise isn't that effective in losing fat" I totally have to disagree. Excercise is a totally effective way of losing fat. It is true that you have to watch what you eat(basically you have to burn more calories then you consume), but without exercise people would not be able to lose weight(unless they take some kind of pill which I am totally against). Like I said before, by exercising in the morning you dip into you energy store(fat) because your blood suger is low. That's when you start to use up your excess calories you stored away. However, working out for too long can definitely do more harm then good. It can eat away at your hard earned muscles.

    You should just maybe do 20 mins of cardio at high intensity. This a good method i read in a book. First warm up for 2 min at a intensity level of 5. 1 being the least(like lifting a fork to your mouth), 10 being near death. Then after that bring it up to a 6 intensity for a min. Then after that bring it up to a 7 intensity for a min, then a 8 intensity for a min, then a 9 intensity for a min, then bring it back to a 6 min. Do this cycle 3 times. On the last one after the 9 intensity, you give it everything and do an all-out 10 intensity(you should be having a near death experience :-) for a min. Then bring it back to a 5 intensity and your done. The workout plan the books suggests is to lift mon, wed, fri and do cardio for tue, thrus, sat. Sun be a cheat day only.

    It think this a good balence of cardio. It's not to long and it won't tax your hard earned muscles. I don't know how intense the cardio you were doing, but if it is intense, then I think you're doing to much cardio.

    No matter what, consistancy is key.
    Do whatever it takes!
    Good Luck.

  17. #16
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    "2. Over 45mins is way too much. I prefer HIIT and blast it for only 15min."

    Not that HIIT is a bad idea, but running for an hour is a great way to burn an awful lot of fat as your body begins to oxydize(?) fat for fuel (I believe that's what happens, at any rate it targets fat) after 20 minutes of increased heart rate.


    "I personally think there is no such thing as too much cardio."

    This is blatantly wrong. I ran cross country 4 years, track a couple and I see people overtraining with just running all the time. They would simply run too much and it would cause them to get slower.


    "What Podium Kreatin said is true and false. If you want to lose weight, the best way is to work out on an empty stomach right after wake up"

    Yeah, that's great if you want to lose muscle. Have at least a protein shake (with water) and maybe a banana before you run if it's in the morning.


    "It will increase your metabolism and studies have shown that fat is burned much fast - up too 300% faster when you exercise in the morning as opposed to in the afternoon."

    I'd be interested in seeing the study.


    Anyways, I agree that you should be doing cardio, but not before weights for sure. You need to make sure that after running you have gone into caloric deficit. Running for around 45 minutes to an hour or doing HIIT should probably be what constitutes most of your cardio, as it will help target fat..
    Last edited by KingJustin; 05-23-2004 at 09:35 AM.

  18. #17
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    The book I got all the infomation from is call Body-for-Life by Bill Philips. I don't know if he's the best fitness expert in the world, but he definitely has transformed many people within 12 weeks. I personally don't follow everything he says, but he does have proven methods that work. I didn't notice till recently, but there are lots of people who follow his book and have really achieved a "Body-for-Life".

    "It will increase your metabolism and studies have shown that fat is burned much fast(er) - up too 300% faster when you exercise in the morning as opposed to in the afternoon."

    This is a quote from his book. He doesn't supply the data but I don't think he's lying.

    "I personally think there is no such thing as too much cardio."
    The reason I said this was because of an interview I saw on tv. It was on some public access channel in Hawaii and they had just finished some big marathon. They were interviewing this old guy who just finished. The interviewer was asking him question on how the run was and stuff like that and the guy(runner) was talking all incoherently and stuff. Then finally, the interviewer asked the guy how old he was, and he said he was 100. That there was definitely motivation for me to run more often.
    Right now I'm thinking of a nice, big, juicy burger done medium on a charcol grill with melted, extra sharp cheddar cheese, 3 strips of thick bacon, lettuce, tomato, creamy mayo on a toasted bun with a side order of freshly cut, crispy french fries, and a side order of freshly home-battered, thick, crispy onion rings with a bottle of Heinz ketcup and a large coke. Awwwwhhh....

  19. #18
    Senior Member Ebu's Avatar
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    aka23, PLEASE tell me you copy and pasted that...
    "Color outside the lines"

  20. #19
    Senior Member aka23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebu
    aka23, PLEASE tell me you copy and pasted that...
    Most of it was cut and pasted from other posts I have written on this forum. You can find the earlier posts with the search function.

  21. #20
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    aka knows his ****.

    D 435 / S 340 / B 305

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  22. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beast
    aka knows his ****.
    Yea but I really didn't understand most of that...

    Still confused on the best time of day, intensity and duration that I should do cardio to increase fat burning...

  23. #22
    Wannabebig Member Podium Kreatin's Avatar
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    a flaw, i believe, i see here is that ppl assume that BMR energy sources and muscle-tissue energy sources go by the same rules. they don't. ok, since there is a lot to quote, i'll just add to what i put:

    the ranking for energy source for BMR (resting metabolism, from non-muscle cells):
    aerobic glycolysis>fat oxidation>>gluconeogenesis. non-muscle cells do not use creatine nor are capable of anaerobic glycolysis

    the ranking for energy source for EXCERCISE (muscle cells):
    creatine phosphate>anaerobic glycolysis>gluconeogenesis (protein conversion into glucose)>aerobic glycolysis and oxidation>fat oxidation

    here is why excercise differs in energy usage than BMR

    BMR uses little fuel per unit of time, b/c of mitochondria. mitochondria can use oxygen and harness 16x the energy (ATP) from glucose than w/o mitochondria (muscle-cells), adn are capable of harnessing energy from fat. however, "oxidative phosphorylation" is very slow, b/c it involves the mitochondria performing "slow, controlled explosions" w/ the oxygen to harness the energy in glucose and fat. u can think of this as a "hot-potato" idea, where oxygen is passed from one protein to another, until it gets to the end. this involves many enzymes and is a lot of oxygen is used

    excercise, however, uses the skeletal muscles, which differ in composition than non-muscle cells. this includes: very little or no mitochondria (limited fat oxidation), capable of anaerobic processes, and low oxygen reception relative to other types of tissue.

    we can all agree that cardio can boost BMR, which is effective in burning fat. but, in terms of the cardio session itself, longer is not better. this is b/c aerobic processes (aerobic glycolysis and fat oxidation) are TOO SLOW for running and other excercises (muscle-twitch burns more energy per unit of time than anything else).
    from aka's website link
    It was concluded that protein is utilized during exercise to a greater extent than is generally assumed and that under certain conditions protein carbon may contribute significantly to exercise caloric cost.
    the thing about running before breakfast: our blood sugar is low at this point, and u "force" ur body to use fat and protein. but, u will lose protein, b/c our bodies always try to keep a steady level of blood glucose. however, u always lose protein when u are losing fat from excercise, b/c fat is always gonna be the least preferred energy source for excercise, right under protein.

    CLARIFICATION: i didnt' say that "cardio isn't effective in losing fat." i'm saying, the cardio session isn't effective in losing fat, and longer is not better, which was to answer the question of this thread. if u do cardio and lose weight effectively, it is more of the BMR energy usage, not the excercise energy usage. here's my summary:
    cardio is effective in boosting BMR, which will help lose fat and spares proteins. but doign longer cardio isnt' gonna do much better, b/c the longer cardio session itself isn't effective in burning that much more fat, and won't boost BMR that much.
    Last edited by Podium Kreatin; 05-23-2004 at 11:48 PM.
    "No one can completely believe that I am natural.
    The most important drug is to train like a madman
    -really like a madman
    The people who accuse me are those who have never trained once in their life as I train every day of my life."

    Alexandr Karelin
    Ten-time World Greco-Roman Champion
    1988, 1992, 1996 Olympic gold medalist

    current stats (10/19/03): 20yrs, M, 5'4 @160lbs, ~11% body fat
    lifted since march 2000
    occupation:MCB major @ uc berkeley

  24. #23
    Senior Member aka23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Podium Kreatin
    the ranking for energy source for EXCERCISE (muscle cells):
    creatine phosphate>anaerobic glycolysis>gluconeogenesis (protein conversion into glucose)>aerobic glycolysis and oxidation>fat oxidation
    I think you are calling something similar to the order of energy production during maximal exercise "the ranking for energy source." During near maximal exercise (sprint portion of HIIT or weight training), the body first uses intramuscular stores of ATP and posphocreatine (PCr). At maximum intensity exercise, they are only the dominant energy source for about 7 seconds. After ~7 seconds, oxygen-independent glycolysis becomes the dominant energy source. In this process glycogen is used as fuel and lactate is generated. This energy process is sometimes called anaerobic glycolysis, suggesting that it only occurs when oxygen is not available, such as when one is out of breath while sprinting. It actually can occur whether oxygen is present or not. Lactate accumulation is more associated with effort and hormonal release than lack of oxygen. Within a couple minutes of maximal exercise (by this point pace is slowed down significantly), oxygen-dependent glycolysis becomes the dominant energy source. Lypolysis generates energy from fat and also requires aerobic conditions. It is not involved much during the work portion of short periods of near-maximal intensity exercise (It is involved in the rest/recovery periods between sprints.). However, several studies suggest that sprints may be superior to traditional cardio for fat loss. One such study is described at http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/HIITvsET.html. As I described earlier, fat burned during the activity does not equal total fat loss. Total fat loss is more closely related to calorie balance.

    The above "ranking" of energy systems relates to short sprints of near maximal intensity exercise. Traditional aerobic cardio is very different. During aerobic conditions, energy is continually being derived from three main sources: fat, blood glucose, and muscle glycogen. Fat is being used at the start and fat is being used at the finish. The proportion of energy derived from fat is closely tied to intensity. In one study, GA Brooks found the following approximate ratios of energy derived from fat to carbs near the start of exercise at various intensities:

    Rest -- 65% Fat / 35% Carbs
    20% VO2 Max -- 60% Fat / 40% Carbs
    40% VO2 Max -- 45% Fat / 55% Carbs
    60% VO2 Max -- 25% Fat / 75% Carbs
    80% VO2 Max -- 0% Fat / 100% Carbs

    The final case at 80% VO2Max is the near maximal intensity case discussed earlier. Note that at the higher intensities, calories are being burned at a much faster a rate, so the maximum rate of fat oxidation occurs when far less than 50% of the calories are coming from fat. The graph at http://www.biochemsoctrans.org/bst/0...esolution=HIGH
    shows how rate of fat oxidation varies with intensity of exercise. The study depicted in the graph found the maximum rate of fat burning at slightly below 65% VO2 Max. If I remember this study correctly 65% VO2 Max correlated with ~75%MHR in this study.

    Other factors affecting the proportion of fuel from fat include exercise duration, dietary composition including recent meals, training history, environmental conditions, hormones/gender, and supplements/drugs. The paper at http://www.biochemsoctrans.org/bst/0...bst0311270.htm gives a good summary how these factors come into play and how fat oxidation is affected diet, aerobic exercise, and environment.

    Notice that protein is not mentioned in the discussion above. As stated earlier, protein is generally not a significant source of fuel in exercise. This makes sense from both an evolutionary perspective and a biochemical perspective. It does not make sense that the body would prefer using protein to fat as fuel in typical conditions, as your posts suggests. Protein stores are limited, and it does not seem logical that the body would evolve to catabolize large amounts of muscle in typical exercise. The process of using protein for energy is also waistful, compared to fat. Protein generally only becomes significant in extreme conditions, when carbs are not available and fat cannot substitute. This might include in the morning on an empty stomach. Liver glycogen is nearly depleted. It is used to supply fuel to the brain. Ignoring special situations like ketosis, fat is not an adequate substitute, so the body is forced to resort to protein. Another example, might be high-intensity exercise done in low-glycogen conditions. Fat cannot supply energy at a fast enough rate for high intensity exericse, so the body must increase the proportion of energy from carbs. If carbs are limited, the body is forced to increase protein usage. This final example is similar to the study I linked to earlier, which found 10% of energy derived from protein under condtions of nearly full glycogen depletion. These extreme conditions of the study explain the quote you listed above: "under certain conditions protein carbon may contribute significantly to exercise caloric cost." This is further supported from the paper I linked to earlier in this post,

    "the quantitative contribution of branched-chain amino acids to energy expenditure is usually minimal (<1%). Even in extreme conditions (i.e. prolonged exercise in fasted conditions) amino acid oxidation only represents a relatively small fraction of total substrate utilization (<10%)."

    I do not have time to address the other issues, such as the BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate) discussion right now. I may post more tomorrow morning.
    Last edited by aka23; 05-24-2004 at 02:32 AM.

  25. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Podium Kreatin
    a flaw, i believe, i see here is that ppl assume that BMR energy sources and muscle-tissue energy sources go by the same rules. they don't. ok, since there is a lot to quote, i'll just add to what i put: the ranking for energy source for BMR (resting metabolism, from non-muscle cells):
    aerobic glycolysis>fat oxidation>>gluconeogenesis. non-muscle cells do not use creatine nor are capable of anaerobic glycolysis.
    BMR stands for basal metabolic rate. It indicates energy used at rest during processes such as respiration, digestion, and brain function. In resting conditions, most organs (muscle, liver, kidneys) use fatty acids as their primary fuel. The brain and red blood cells do not have the necessary mitochondria to use fatty acids as fuel, so they are forced to use glucose during resting conditions. The brain has a significant fuel requirement. It usually requires approximately 150g of glucose/day or ~20% of total energy requirement. When you wake up in the morning your liver glycogen stores are nearly depleted because the brain uses these stores for fuel (via blood glucose) while sleeping. As stated earlier ~65% of energy comes from fat and about 35% of energy comes from carbs during resting conditions. Most of this 35% carbs are used by the brain as stated above.

    Aerobic glycolysis is a process in which energy (ATP) is derived from glucose and oxygen. During resting conditions (BMR), fat oxidation is favored over aerobic glycolysis. Fat oxidation's major disadvantage is that cannot supply energy at as fast a rate as glycolysis, so as intensity increases and fat oxidation cannot keep up with energy demand, an increasing portion of energy is derived from aerobic glycolysis.
    Last edited by aka23; 05-24-2004 at 01:04 PM.

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    Banned Allyrulez's Avatar
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