Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 47

Thread: Shrug article on WBB, dangerous advice

  1. #1
    Wannabebig Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    32

    Shrug article on WBB, dangerous advice

    I have tried emailing WBB about this but have recieved no reply.
    THis article, http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=130 in my opinion displays a dangerous way to do the shrug, and when I saw the question 'which one shows correct form?', i thought it was a trick question as none of them do.
    Apparently pictures 2 and 4 are correct, but I beg to differ.
    In picture 2, the first OBVIOUS thing that guy is doing wrong, is you do NOT shrug with poor posture. Why is is head and shoulders dropping forward? His chest is NOT up out like good posture dictates. Unless you shrug with good posture, the extra force put on your spine is very damaging. Dropping your head forward when just walking or sitting can put up to 100lb of force onto your spine, imagine when you have weights in your hand. I bet his tongue is not on the roof of his mouth either. SLightly bent knees is also part of balancing load accross your body

    The same issue of his head dropping forward and most of the points above are also apparent in picture 4, in picture 4 the dumbbells are also overly rotated, even though it isn't much, they should still be facing the front.
    Normally I wouldn't care, but for a reputable site, exercises that are potentially dangerous (shrug because of it's relation to spinal loads) should be shown with extra care.

    For a real article on shrugs, see http://t-mag.com/html/body_144shrug.html and part 2, http://t-mag.com/html/body_145shrug.html

  2. #2
    En botella whey! Max-Mex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Dorchester, MA
    Posts
    4,808
    Never read the article before but I have to agree with edd at least on the BB shrugs. I hurt my lower back a while back doing them because I put myself in that position (pic #2). Since then, I have stopped doing them because there was no way for me to get a good shrug and have good posture.
    Burritos are the bomb for bulking!
    My Food Journal


    PB's&Goals

    Deadlift: PR 1@440, Goal 1@450
    Squat: PR 1@375, Goal 1@400
    Bench: PR 2@275, Goal 1@300

  3. #3
    Wannabebig Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    32
    hopefully they will read this thread

  4. #4
    I wannabebig!
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    in my own world
    Posts
    1,816
    dont worry someone will..

  5. #5
    Senior Member Manveet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    White Rock, BC
    Posts
    5,774
    bump
    "It is often said, mainly by the "no-contests", that although there is no positive evidence for the existence of God, nor is there evidence against his existence. So it is best to keep an open mind and be agnostic. At first sight that seems an unassailable position, at least in the weak sense of Pascal's wager. But on second thought it seems a cop-out, because the same could be said of Father Christmas and tooth fairies. There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?"

    Richard Dawkins


    "Out of all of the sects in the world, we notice an uncanny coincidence: the overwhelming majority just happen to choose the one that their parents belong to. Not the sect that has the best evidence in its favour, the best miracles, the best moral code, the best cathedral, the best stained glass, the best music: when it comes to choosing from the smorgasbord of available religions, their potential virtues seem to count for nothing, compared to the matter of heredity. This is an unmistakable fact; nobody could seriously deny it. Yet people with full knowledge of the arbitrary nature of this heredity, somehow manage to go on believing in their religion, often with such fanaticism that they are prepared to murder people who follow a different one."


    Richard Dawkins


    "Bah. You know I hate poor people."

    Paul Stagg

  6. #6
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Vancouver, B.C.
    Posts
    5,323
    Paul Chek follower eh.......... I will address your post later today when I have more time.
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  7. #7
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Charlottesville, VA
    Posts
    12,649
    Well, I don't see any problem with the article. Your comments seem to be overly paranoid to me. If you are that concerned about injuring yourself as to be upset about nuances in head position, then I think you should just avoid lifting.

    This site is reputable and so is the article.


    AtLarge Nutrition Supplements – Get the best supplements and help support Wannabebig!

  8. #8
    Senior Member wrestlemaniac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    635
    He makes a good point though. I mean, I'm not that thorough and I've had a little back pain while shrugging every so often, maybe this is why. And I couldn't see the weight of a shrug being any different than the weight of a squat. I mean, you're holding it differently but it's still pulling down on all the same spots. blah, I don't care to criticize the page but I for one will take this info into consideration at my next trap workout.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    183
    Quote Originally Posted by chris mason

    This site is reputable...
    I belive that without a dubt, that is why I am sure you guys will take a look at the article for reviewing in light of this new information.

    That is the beauty of this place, you get lots of information, and you get the unlimate truth at the end even if it is ilusive

  10. #10
    Bitch Tits
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Union City, NJ
    Posts
    28
    The way I see it, if your traps are big as it is, you have to move your head up a bit cause you won't be able to go all the way. If your starting off then the proper way would be straight up and shrug.
    *******
    HEIGHT - 6'2
    WEIGHT - 296
    GOAL - 220

    *******

  11. #11
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Vancouver, B.C.
    Posts
    5,323
    I have tried emailing WBB about this but have recieved no reply.
    *** I recieved no such email, otherwise I would have addressed the issue right away.

    THis article, http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=130 in my opinion displays a dangerous way to do the shrug, and when I saw the question 'which one shows correct form?', i thought it was a trick question as none of them do.
    Apparently pictures 2 and 4 are correct, but I beg to differ.
    In picture 2, the first OBVIOUS thing that guy is doing wrong, is you do NOT shrug with poor posture. Why is is head and shoulders dropping forward? His chest is NOT up out like good posture dictates. Unless you shrug with good posture, the extra force put on your spine is very damaging.
    *** Upon further observation I've noted a slight internal rounding of the shoulder blades and the neck is slightly flexed. Beyond that I do not see how this slight change in posture will have a profound effect on an individual.


    Dropping your head forward when just walking or sitting can put up to 100lb of force onto your spine, imagine when you have weights in your hand.
    *** Runnning and jumping as well sends thousands of pounds of force throughout the joints. Imagine if you were to load a barbell and do jump squats? I fail to see your point.

    I bet his tongue is not on the roof of his mouth either.
    *** No it wasn't. Might I add that it does not need to be placed there regardless of what Mr Chek states. He has shown no scientific reference that states this is a valid and proven method.

    SLightly bent knees is also part of balancing load accross your body
    *** But not a must. However, for the record they were slightly bent.

    The same issue of his head dropping forward and most of the points above are also apparent in picture 4, in picture 4 the dumbbells are also overly rotated, even though it isn't much, they should still be facing the front.
    Normally I wouldn't care, but for a reputable site, exercises that are potentially dangerous (shrug because of it's relation to spinal loads) should be shown with extra care.
    *** A slightly flexed neck will not cause any harm to the body. The traps extend the neck, not flex it. Muscle such as the longus colli & capitis
    infra hyoids are responsible for flexing the neck forward.

    I will say that I could have positioned the shoulders bit better so that they were externally rotated a bit more, but that wasn't my point in this short piece. It was to show the primary mistake most people make when executing a barbell shrug.

    *** Are you a Chekky? You sound like one as you're making absolute statements, just like he does. Mr Chek is a very knowledagble person, but he has a tendancy to make some broad statements that are rarely referenced.

    If you believe what he has to say I'm sure you also believe that standing on a swiss ball will improve ones stability and core muscles above and beyond methods such as OL and that pulling the abs in while squatting or deadlifting maximal poundage is also correct. And that belts are bad as well?

    Have you ever been diagnosed by a Chek practitioner? It's almost like you feel as if you're about to fall apart after an asessment with one. Don't get me wrong, he's got some great info, but please don't take it as gosple. There's more then one way to skin a cat.

    I'd suggest that you do some reading here.

    http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Supertraining/

    It will help you see the other side. Punch into the search button these key words, "Paul Chek," "Chek and core training," and "tounge and cheek."
    Last edited by Maki Riddington; 05-17-2004 at 06:13 PM.
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  12. #12
    Wannabebig Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by Maki Riddington
    *** I recieved no such email, otherwise I would have addressed the issue right away.
    I couldn't find your specific email address, i sent to WBB



    *** Upon further observation I've noted a slight internal rounding of the shoulder blades and the neck is slightly flexed. Beyond that I do not see how this slight change in posture will have a profound effect on an individual.
    I guess this is where you and I disagree, any precise movement should have exact technique, especially when dealing with the spine




    *** Runnning and jumping as well sends thousands of pounds of force throughout the joints. Imagine if you were to load a barbell and do jump squats? I fail to see your point.
    Sure it does, but it's not favourable. I don't see the harm in showing a technique that is safer?



    *** No it wasn't. Might I add that it does not need to be placed there regardless of what Mr Chek states. He has shown no scientific reference that states this is a valid and proven method.
    I don't think you'll find any real disagreement that tongue on roof is favourable and no disagreement it's the 'natural' position



    *** But not a must. However, for the record they were slightly bent.
    Not a must, but I'd say pretty close, just to keep injury free, but if they were slightly bent i apologise



    *** A slightly flexed neck will not cause any harm to the body. The traps extend the neck, not flex it. Muscle such as the longus colli & capitis
    infra hyoids are responsible for flexing the neck forward.
    I am not arguing what the traps do to the neck, I am saying a flexed neck is not beneficial, and i would say detrimental to performing shrugs and their safety. You say Chek offered no proof for the tongue, hes offered plenty of proof for keeping your head not flexed while doing shrugs

    I will say that I could have positioned the shoulders bit better so that they were externally rotated a bit more, but that wasn't my point in this short piece. It was to show the primary mistake most people make when executing a barbell shrug.
    To me on first glance, all your pictures looked pretty similar anyway



    *** Are you a Chekky? You sound like one as you're making absolute statements, just like he does. Mr Chek is a very knowledagble person, but he has a tendancy to make some broad statements that are rarely referenced.

    If you believe what he has to say I'm sure you also believe that standing on a swiss ball will improve ones stability and core muscles above and beyond methods such as OL and that pulling the abs in while squatting or deadlifting maximal poundage is also correct. And that belts are bad as well?
    Am I a 'Chekky'? No. I respect Paul Check as he is knowledgeable but there is alot I do not follow from him. Eg. like you mentioned, abs in vs abs out, I dont pull my abs in when squatting, I prefer to follow a mel siff/dave tate approach.
    Are belts bad? I don't believe in belts unless your nursing an injury

    Have you ever been diagnosed by a Chek practitioner? It's almost like you feel as if you're about to fall apart after an asessment with one. Don't get me wrong, he's got some great info, but please don't take it as gosple. There's more then one way to skin a cat.

    I'd suggest that you do some reading here.

    http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Supertraining/

    It will help you see the other side. Punch into the search button these key words, "Paul Chek," "Chek and core training," and "tounge and cheek."
    I'm afraid I've never been diagnosed by a Chek practitioner, and I have read the supertraining group before. I have no doubt should Siff be here today that he would agree to perfect posture when doing shrugs.

    You haven't really answered much, more of saying 'its not that bad'.
    Anyway, opinions differ, just I think the article wouldve been nicer while showing nicer technique and in the wording, emphisisng the importance of posture
    Last edited by edd91; 05-18-2004 at 01:48 AM.

  13. #13
    Wannabebig Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by chris mason
    Well, I don't see any problem with the article. Your comments seem to be overly paranoid to me. If you are that concerned about injuring yourself as to be upset about nuances in head position, then I think you should just avoid lifting.

    This site is reputable and so is the article.
    mate, you seem defensive. I never said the site isn't reputable, if I saw these pics on BB.com i wouldn't give glance twice, but I thought that maybe on WBB this warrented some discussion

  14. #14
    is numero uno Saint Patrick's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    6,557
    I'm not saying who's right or wrong, but this guy is entitled to his opinion.

    I give him credit for bringing it up for open discussion.
    Age:30
    Height: 5'7"
    Weight: Not Big Enough
    ______________________

    “Take things as they are. Punch when you have to punch. Kick when you have to kick.” — Bruce Lee

  15. #15
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Posts
    8,668
    Quote Originally Posted by edd91
    mate, you seem defensive. I never said the site isn't reputable, if I saw these pics on BB.com i wouldn't give glance twice, but I thought that maybe on WBB this warrented some discussion
    IMO, this is a pretty nice compliment.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

  16. #16
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Vancouver, B.C.
    Posts
    5,323
    I guess this is where you and I disagree, any precise movement should have exact technique, especially when dealing with the spine
    *** What is "exact technique?" And by whom is this determined by? Is it as Paul Chek explains it to be? If so, as I have mentioned, I fail to see him reference his statements.


    "Figure 6A — When performing the shrug exercise, it's critical that you avoid letting the shoulders or head move forward. If such forward migration of the head and shoulder complex is allowed, there's excessive compression, torsion and sheer placed on the acromioclavicular and sternoclavicular joints. Over time this can lead to painful degenerative changes such as clavicular osteolysis.

    Figure 6B — When the shrug is performed correctly, the load is equally distributed throughout the entire rib cage, shoulder girdle and head/neck complex (also see figure 9B).


    He then goes on to say, the following key alignment points must be addressed while performing a shrug:

    • Feet parallel and weight distribution equal between balls of feet and heels. The stance width is such that the feet are within the vertical space occupied by the pelvis or just slightly wider. If the dumbbells are dragging on your outer thighs, your stance is too wide.

    • Knees bent to approximately 20 degrees and aligned over toes.

    • The umbilicus is drawn inward to activate the transversus abdominis (TVA) adequately to stabilize the spine, but not so much that it detracts from respiration. The heavier the load or greater the training intensity, the greater the magnitude of TVA contraction needed.

    • The shoulder girdle should be balanced over the rib cage with the arms hanging in the middle third of the body when viewed from side. The first rib angle of the chest should be elevated adequately to reduce thoracic kyphosis to the position of axial extension (making yourself as tall as you can); picking up the chest to a point just inside full inspiration will provide an optimal first rib angle for the shrug. This favors load sharing through the entire rib cage and minimizes loading of the AC and SC joints.

    • The head should be positioned such that the zygomatic arch (prominence of cheekbone) is directly over the clavicle. The eyes should be level with the horizon and the gaze slightly above horizontal.

    • The tongue should be in the physiological rest position to ensure optimal stabilization of the neck (Figure 8). Physiological rest position of the tongue is just behind the front teeth on the roof of your mouth. To find the physiological rest position, you need only swallow and note where your tongue goes.


    I have no problem with these statements, however he does not reference them. How am I to believe someone when they can not provide the proper evidence to support their claims?


    I don't think you'll find any real disagreement that tongue on roof is favourable and no disagreement it's the 'natural' position
    *** You're missing my point. You have no proof that this is a natural position for the tongue. It is on him to prove this true. Not me, he is the one making the statement. Until it is shown that this true it is merely an opinion.


    You haven't really answered much, more of saying 'its not that bad'.
    Anyway, opinions differ, just I think the article wouldve been nicer while showing nicer technique and in the wording, emphisisng the importance of posture.
    *** I will admit that my technique in the pictures could have been better and that is my fault. I will be sure to retake the pictures and have them up as soon as possible.I will also make sure in the future that all the exercises photgraphed will be taken in a manner that clearly shows better technique.

    As for your comment on "pefect posture," there is no such thing. I will also say that I am not a big fan of the whole posture topic. I believe that posture is simply a matter of reorganizing ones movement patterns and that unless you have extreme deviations in the kinetic chain there is not much of a reason to talk about it.
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  17. #17
    Wannabebig Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    64
    Quote Originally Posted by Maki Riddington
    *** What is "exact technique?" And by whom is this determined by? Is it as Paul Chek explains it to be? If so, as I have mentioned, I fail to see him reference his statements.
    What is "proper form?" And by whom is this determined by? Is it as Maki Riddington explains it to be? If so, as I have mentioned, I fail to see him reference his statements.


    I have no problem with these statements, however he does not reference them. How am I to believe someone when they can not provide the proper evidence to support their claims?
    So why should we believe you and your claim of purporting to show the proper way to do shrugs? Perhaps you have a litany of references and evidence to support your claims, they are, however, absent from your article.

    From the bottom of that other guy's shrug article (Not jaw-dropping or anything but at least there is something there) :

    References

    1. Basmajian, J. V. andDeLuca, C. J. Muscles Alive: Fifth Edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1989.

    2. Telle J., Beyond 2001. Denver, CO: Edict Publishing, 1994.

    3. Chek, P. Program Design, correspondence course and video cassette series. Encinitas, CA: A C.H.E.K Institute publication and production, 1995.

    4. Hartmann, J. and Tunnemann H., Fitness and Strength Training for All Sports. Toronto: Sports Books Publisher, 1995.

    5. Richardson, C., Jull, G., Hodges, P., Hides, J. Therapeutic Exercise for Spinal Stabilization in Lower Back Pain. London: Churchill Livingstone, 1999.



    *** You're missing my point. You have no proof that this is a natural position for the tongue. It is on him to prove this true. Not me, he is the one making the statement. Until it is shown that this true it is merely an opinion.
    I wonder exactly what would constitute proof in that regard. Nevertheless, it would hardly be anything less than productive to debate the merits with the OP or the other article writer as opposed to waiting for some irrefutable proof in reference to the proper tongue position while shrugging (I'm sure the study is being commisioned as we speak).


    *** I will admit that my technique in the pictures could have been better and that is my fault. I will be sure to retake the pictures and have them up as soon as possible.I will also make sure in the future that all the exercises photgraphed will be taken in a manner that clearly shows better technique.
    Sounds good, and hopefully speaking for everyone, we appreciate the effort.
    Last edited by PrinterPaper; 05-19-2004 at 04:28 AM.

  18. #18
    I wannabebig!
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    in my own world
    Posts
    1,816
    final verdict is!

  19. #19
    King Nothing ericg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Maine, USA
    Posts
    6,196
    What do you guys think of this last paragraph in a blurp of Dr Squats article "SOME EFFECTIVE PERMUTATIONS OF COMMON EXERCISES"?...

    "SHRUGS
    Your trapezius muscles (called "traps") elevate and support your shoulder girdle (i.e., pull your shoulders toward your ears). Simply hold a bar in front of you and "shrug" your shoulders straight upwards. You don't have to rotate your shoulders -- just shrug.

    An alternative method is to shrug with heavy dumbbells while either seated or standing. The straight bar must be held out in front of you, while seated dumbbell shrugs allow the arms to hang naturally at your sides. This makes dumbbell shrugs a bit more comfortable and definitely easier on your low back. Holding a heavy bar in front of you requires strong contraction of your erector spinae muscles.

    Normal shrugging technique (as explained above) activates the two upper portions of your trapezius (i.e., trapezius I and II). By leaning forward (about 20-30 degrees), and then shrugging straight up -- not toward your ears, but vertically toward the ceiling -- you will activate trapezius III and IV. You may wish to support your upper body against a padded surface (like a preacher curl bench) in order to alleviate unnecessary stress on your lower back while leaning forward."

    Click HERE to read the entire article.

    Now doesnt this last paragraph go against what most think is "proper" form?
    Current Stats --------------- Training Goals: Improve athletic conditioning.
    Squat - 305lbs - 1/23/06 ----- 335
    Deadlift - 415lbs - 2/4/06 ---- 435
    Bench - 90s*7 ----------------- 100s*5
    Weight - 208 ------------------ 190
    Height - 5'10"

    My Journal|My Routine|My FitDay
    WBBB|"Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up" - Thomas Edison

  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Kitchener, ON
    Posts
    11,341
    Quote Originally Posted by PrinterPaper
    What is "proper form?" And by whom is this determined by? Is it as Maki Riddington explains it to be? If so, as I have mentioned, I fail to see him reference his statements.
    I think that the point here is that, in the absence of clear scientific evidence for one over the other, Maki's informed opinion is just as valid as Chek's regarding 'proper form'.

  21. #21
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Vancouver, B.C.
    Posts
    5,323
    What is "proper form?" And by whom is this determined by? Is it as Maki Riddington explains it to be? If so, as I have mentioned, I fail to see him reference his statements.
    *** Note, the huge difference in my wording and his. I am simply pointing out the obvious by explaining "Below are four pictures, which pictures display the proper form and technique for the dumbbell and barbell shrug:" Translation: Which is the commonly accepted way of performing a shrug so that injury will not occur? Although common does not mean correct, in this case it is still a low risk way of performing the shrug. Now the statement that was made against my article used the word, "dangerous." I have asked for specific evidence stating otherwise, none has been shown.

    So why should we believe you and your claim of purporting to show the proper way to do shrugs? Perhaps you have a litany of references and evidence to support your claims, they are, however, absent from your article.
    *** Please show me where I should have included a reference backing up my claims.


    From the bottom of that other guy's shrug article (Not jaw-dropping or anything but at least there is something there) :
    *** Anyone can list references on the bottom of an article. You're missing my point, they are not matched up to his statements in question.


    I wonder exactly what would constitute proof in that regard. Nevertheless, it would hardly be anything less than productive to debate the merits with the OP or the other article writer as opposed to waiting for some irrefutable proof in reference to the proper tongue position while shrugging (I'm sure the study is being commisioned as we speak).
    *** Again, statements like those need to be referenced otherwise they carry no weight to them.

    Maybe I should have included (in the article) a little known fact that the trapezius muscle is a bipennate muscle which means that standing and seated shrugs are more effective overall as opposed to performing one movement for the traps. This is due to the different angles the fibres run in.
    Last edited by Maki Riddington; 05-19-2004 at 10:59 PM.
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  22. #22
    King Nothing ericg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Maine, USA
    Posts
    6,196
    Quote Originally Posted by Maki Riddington
    Maybe I should have included (in the article) a little known fact that the trapezius muscle is a bipennate muscle which means that standing and seated shrugs are more effective overall as opposed to performing one movement for the traps. This is due to the different angles the fibres run in.
    This goes along with the piece of the article that i posted above, right?
    Current Stats --------------- Training Goals: Improve athletic conditioning.
    Squat - 305lbs - 1/23/06 ----- 335
    Deadlift - 415lbs - 2/4/06 ---- 435
    Bench - 90s*7 ----------------- 100s*5
    Weight - 208 ------------------ 190
    Height - 5'10"

    My Journal|My Routine|My FitDay
    WBBB|"Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up" - Thomas Edison

  23. #23
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Charlottesville, VA
    Posts
    12,649
    This concern over the spine is ridiculous. Think of it this way, when one is performing a heavy deadlift one is using comparable resistance to a heavy shrug. During the performance of a heavy deadlift it is IMPOSSIBLE to hold the head and shoulders in the position being advocated by those excessively worried about said form. I don't see anyone telling people not to deadlift.

    Personally, I have never heard of anyone injuring their cervical spine (I am assuming the "concern" is over the upper regions of the spine) while deadlifting.

    For me, part of lifting weights is becoming a big and strong individual who doesn't have to worry excessively about tongue position or exact spinal alignment when lifting heavy objects.

    I find this whole discussion distasteful and trite.
    Last edited by chris mason; 05-19-2004 at 10:40 AM.


    AtLarge Nutrition Supplements – Get the best supplements and help support Wannabebig!

  24. #24
    Senior Member JustinF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    7,113
    What's the deal with the toungue placement? Can't say I've ever heard of that before.

    I agree that things seem to be getting too complicated lately. It's good to analyze things to develop better and more efficient training, but what ever happened to eat big, lift big, get big?
    My journal


    -As President of the loyal order of Curl Jockeys I hearby proclaim you top Curl Jockey. -ectx

  25. #25
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Vancouver, B.C.
    Posts
    5,323
    Chris, that is my point about Paul Chek. If you've ever subscribed to his techniques you will see just how wrong your curent training is. He makes you believe that your body is going to fall apart if you don't train according to his way.
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •