I just got a call form my doctor and he said that the X-Ray showed a compression Fracture of the L2 vertabrea. What is this. Is it bad?..he has ordered a MRI also
Hope its not to serious! Get well!
COMPRESSION FRACTURE - A collapse of the vertebral body, usually caused by older patients with osteoporosis, but may also be caused by trauma.
My boyfriend was in a bicycle accident. HE fractured two areas of his vertabrae. I think the L2 and L4 regions. He will be in the hospital until a brace can be made for him. My question is: what is the healing process? WHat can we expect. The doctors aren't telling us much. ANy info would be greatly appreciated.
Typically, fractures in the lumbar spine after trauma are classified as compression
or burst fractures. There are a few indications for surgery in such cases.
First would be loss of bony height, followed by retropulsion of bony fragments
into the spinal canal, and last would be a progressive kyphosis (forward angulation)
of the spinal column. When the trauma is less severe, a spine surgeon may
choose conservative threatment with a brace, as the bones will eventually fuse
together on their own.
Healing in traumatic spine fractures treated with a brace takes place over
several months to a year. At The Cleveland Clinic we typically would keep
a patient in a thoracolumbar brace for at least three months and take plain
x-rays at that time to evaluate the level for fusion. The brace may or may
not be taken off at that time, depending on the status of the bony healing.
Complete fusion and healing in such instances takes place over one to two years,
though the brace doesn't need to be worn quite so long.
Last edited by geoffgarcia; 07-11-2009 at 03:47 PM.
I cant beleive that this happened from a stupid standing Calve Raises
Man, it's not your day is it? Did you ask your doctor how bad it was?
People wonder why I call myself Mr. T. One dude asked, 'does the T stand for tough?' I said no. Another dude asked if the T stands for my last name, Tureaud. No it does not. The 'T' in Mr. T stands for tuna. T loves tuna.
well he didnt say dont move or go to the emergency room. He just said to avoid lifting and not for me to see my chiroprator until after the MRIOriginally Posted by aidano
I wouldn't put the blame on standing calf raises...if they were a dangerous exercise then we'd all be hurt.Originally Posted by ogarchamplin
a few years at 350+ in bw puts stress on all your bones and joints...
this was just the straw that broke ur back
Last edited by geoffgarcia; 05-28-2004 at 08:30 AM.
Is the doctor aware of your low testosterone levels and the connection between low test and osteopenia/osteoporosis (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12161491, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12934043 ) ? I think it would be a good idea to have a DEXA scan.
Last edited by aka23; 05-28-2004 at 09:31 AM.
I know i hate to admit it but youre right. My spine had to carry 350+ lbs around for years and then to add 600lbs on top of my shoulders was just the rep that broke ogar's back.Originally Posted by geoffgarcia
I dont know but i will ask him about it. My MRI is today at 3:00Originally Posted by aka23
jeeze mang!!!!!Originally Posted by ogarchamplin
I'm 200 and do standing calf raises with 150.....I dont even think the unit at my gym goes above 300 let alone up to 600! wow!
heavy weight on your shoulder/legs be it from squats, leg presses, calf raises, deadlifts, etc...is not good for bones n joints...
I cringe when I see anyone do anything higher than 350 pounds on any lift
Last edited by geoffgarcia; 05-28-2004 at 10:45 AM.
when I was younger and crazy I used to use a ton of weight...machine went to 500 and I would add 8 45s to it...very lucky I still have my tendons and spine.
Good luck to you
Originally Posted by aka23
Osteoporosis Some 30% of men with spinal osteoporosis have long-standing testosterone deficiency, and one-third of men with testosterone deficiency have subnormal bone density that puts them at risk of fractures.
Ok i just got done with my MRI and the Tech was a jerk. When it was over i said "how's it look" and he replied " the radilogist will have to read it" i then said "look i am going to school for this and i know you can tell what's up" and he says " Hey i am not losing my job to make you happy, i sugguest that you go home, don't lift anything and wait for your doctor to call."
i will try to type what my MRI report says but the fax is not a great copy. where there is a ? or a * means i cannot read it.
1-Minor wedging of L1 and L2 with Schmorl's nodes at L3 which all appear chronic
2-Bulge with left foraman(?) disc protusion at L4-5 resulting in moderate left foraman(?) stenosis
3-Bulge with small central disc protrusion L5-S1 with mild stenosis
There are Schmorl's nodes in L1,L2 and L3 which are *****without edema. There is minor compression of the superior endplates of L and L2 with no associated edema suggesting that they are chronic as well. The discs are narrowed at ***levels to some degree. The L1-2,L2-3, and L3-4 discs demostrate no significant stenosis. There is minimal bulging at L3-4, At L4-5, there is bulging of the disc with moderate eft**for** disc protrusion. There is spondylosis. This results in moderate left foraminal stenosis. At L* there is a bulge with a small central disc protrusion. This results in mild cent********. There is no nerve root impingement herre.
Doesn't look promising, although its greek to me, what did the Dr say?
I think if any of us had known you were doing that much weight on standing calves, squats or anything like that, we would have warned you about spinal problems....
BTW, ur not allowed to have that link to Iron Calves in your sig...I thnk they mandated that on this board about a month back
Although now that I think about it, I'm not sure if the fitday is allowed either under those same rules or not...
wedging is when the front of the vertebrae wedges closer together in a triangular shape, the spine starts to curve forward more than normal...so instead of a stack of bricks with a splint between them all, take out the splints on one side and they all touch...thats wedging in a nutshell...
Schmorl's nodes are defined as herniations of the intervertebral disc through the vertebral end-plate. These lesions are believed to be associated with trauma, especially in the thoracic and lumbar vertebrae.The disease is self-limiting and usually does not require extensive treatment. A careful rehabilitation program consisting of an initial rest period followed by a gradual return to full activity is usually successful in returning the athlete to full competition.
http://usresolve.org/schmorls-nodule...orls-nodes.php (more info)
one of the two foramina found at each vertebral level. The foramen is formed anteriorly by the vertebral body, and laterally and dorsally from the pedicles and the lamina of vertebral arch.
Stenosis means the hole has narrowed for some reason, so the nerve has less room to move and may get jammed or pinched with certain movements
So, based on some of the statements made above, is doing deadlifts/squats with too much weight over a long period of time going to lead in the deterioration of spinal and joint health?????
In other words, if one has been doing deads/squats with heavy weight for 10 years(for eg) then , that will cause the eventual deterioration of his/her frame if said person continued such heavy training for another 10 years?. That being said, should'nt heavy deads/squats be considered bad for one's health over the long term?
Thats a very detailed diagnosis and assesment. From what I can make of it with the bits that are missing Ill try and shoot for the key issues:Originally Posted by ogarchamplin
Spondylosis is degenerative disease that can affect any part of any level of the spine. First off is to remeber that "degenerative" does not mean "doomed". It is perfectly treatable ion 75% of the cases and not as bad as the word itself sounds or implies. It tends to be in people over 45. It is wholly possible you were pre-disposed to spondylosis and the weight training at the huge forces you have seemed to use would accelerate the process. Hard to say.
Now here is an irony. Normal disc herniations push the nucleus of the disc laterally through the annulus. Your Schmorl's nodes are the "other" thng that can happen. The nucleus (due to intense pressure) has tried to push out laterally but your annulus is too strong and so it has pushed vertically through the bottom or top of the vertebral body. This could be because after years of heavy assed training your anulus has thickened itself past normal limits and thus, the only thing that could go was the vertebral end plate itself. Or, it could be due to degeneration of the vertebral bodies, leaving the annulus relatively stronger than the vertebra and thus predisposing to Schmorl's nodes. Again, hard to say.
"Bulge with left foraman(?) disc protusion at L4-5 resulting in moderate left foraman(?) stenosis". There are two "foramen" at each level of the spine. A foramen is a hole. Through each of these left and right holes come our spinal nerves that go on to supply the appendicular skeleton (arms, legs etc). You have a herniation (bulge) of the disc through the annulus that is pushig into this foramen. Essentially the bulge is pressing against a nerve that is exiting your spine (stenosis). This is normally a source of radiating pain...possibly down your legs? possibly causing issues with bladder/bowel function. I dont know if you are having any of these symptoms. Pain (very sharp) is the norm for this. L4/L5 is the "classical" level to blow your back at. Just above the sacrum.
You have a milder herniation at the level below L5/S1. The lumbo-sacral junction. Same mechanics as the one above but the disc has come out centrally, probably becasue the ligaments that run down the length of the spine fletten out here and dont really stop it protruding centrally. This one probably wont be hurting too much as the central location wont be pressing on a nerve (in all likelyness).
The wedging..that one is harder to call on. They didnt indicate which direction the wedging was going in. Classically it happens at the front of the spine causing you to lean forwards as Geoff said. But the lumbar spine (lower spine) is basically naturally arched backwards. the curves of the spine are there for shock absorbtion and wedging at the front of the lumbar spine will tend to casue it to gom from curved the normal way (forwards/lordotic)...to straight....to curved the wrong way (kyphotic). This would have a profound effect on the mechanics of the spine. However they said "MINOR". Which means that the wedging probably isnt actually noticable to the natural curve of the spine. Now they know its there they will hopefully take preventative action.
All in all....thats quite a list. You must have been doing some hella weights to get that to all happen. have you had lots of back problems in the past that have all added to each other or did all this happen at once? did you train through injuries to the back?
Dont get your back manipulated by any chiropractors/osteopaths as they said until things have been treated. Its possible you may need surgery.
I have tried to just be "objective" about all of this...but its hard sometimes. Im sorry this has happened. Dont get too "low" about it....most of the words were "minor". Most of the disc issues will go away with treatment and rest. The only "chronic" was in regards to the nodes and i have no idea what the treatment for those is.
I hope this has helped a little, take care, rest and dont worry too much.
Thats a good question to which the anser is yes and no. You see, the thing people dont realise is that the skeleton is living. Its full of blood and nutrients and it has the capability to "remodel" itself to counter stresses put upon it. When you are in anatomy classes there is a classic quote "if i press my finger into your bone (any bone) and press long enough...eventually your bone will remodel around my finger". Eventually is the key word here...50 years? The point is, when you load the skeleton, inside your bones there is a continual process of remodeling of the structures inside the bones to withstand those forces. Same with joints...they thicken up in response to pressure. This is actually a beneficial and good, positive effect.Originally Posted by Hawkeye
So that was the no.
the yes...well thats down to muscles. Muscles are the fastest adapting part of the body. As weight trainers we push for muscle growth. That means we measure whether its time to move up the weights by finding out if we can lift more weight. if we can we do. so the muscles grow from this new stimualtion and we move up again. and so on. the thing is the muscles adapt 19x faster than the joints. So if it takes you 2 weeks to add 5lbs to your squat then it will take 19x longer for the joints to adapt to the new load. HOWEVER joints are made/created/designed to be MUCH stronger than the muscles surrounding them. It would be no good if we could tear our own hips out or sockets. So for a large proportion of the weighttrainers life the muscles (even after training hard) dont get strong enough to threaten the joints. Eventually after prolonged heavy growth of muscle its possible for the muscles surrounding a joint to be capable of moving weights heavier than the joint itself is adapted to deal with. In this situation you will get wear. Does that make sense?
The joints are designed to allow movement under load. they will adapt to load by thickening. however eventually, if progression is too fast you will end up with an unbalance. super strong muscles putting force through a frame not yet adapted to those weights. You can see why steroids dont help...they make muscle growth far too fast for the skeleton and joints to keep up with. natural builders are naturally slower and thus in a better longterm situation for the skeleton to keep up. all things in moderation.
There are always pros and cons. Push things to a limit and you will find the limit. 90% of weight trainers will injure themselves somehow but mostly very minor muscular or joint pains that go away with rest. its the people who push their absolute limit who will find what gives first unfortunately.
Seriously....i have typed so much my fingers ache. stopping now. Im still going to train hard by the way. These things dont put me off. When the muscles are very stong but the joints/skeleton is catching up...thats when poor form will bite you in the ass.
really stopping now.
Thank you i have got a better scan so you can read it if you want but i was told by the nurse that i have two bulging discs and a pinched nerve. No fracture thank god, BUT i am still i A lot of Pain. Right now i am on Skelaxin and Percocets but my doc wants me to try something called a Medrol Dose Pak. If that dosent work than rehab. I need to get back into the gym and hit the weights. I will give a site for you to see them Visit my online photo album called: "MRI"Originally Posted by Augury
The link you gave me allows me to zoom into the mri scan far enough that i can see paragraphs but no words. how do i zoom in so i can read it more closely?
Also the last comment you made worried me..."i want to get back to the gym and hit the weights". I know you do....but seriously....this is one of those "stop and think" moments. I dont know how old you are....but im sure you dont want to spend the next 30 years in constant agony and bent into some horrible position cos its the only one that takes some of the pain away.
Stop. Rest. Let the docs fix you and take the assesment from there. The weights you moved got you in this situation from the sounds of it...it would be unwise to go back and expect to be able to do what you were doing.
Even if your recovery is fast and glorious....you will need to go back into the gym and perform the exercises the load the spine (squats, calf raises, shrugs etc) like you are a total newb and work up through the weights VERY slowly. If you get a sharp pain then you must stop.
Thats the best advice i can give. you only have one spine.
The file was to lare to attach and you dont have a email addy for me to send it to you. But from what ican figure is i have two bulging discs, plus minor wedging of the L1-L2 with Schmorl's nodes at the L3. It also talks about me having something called stenosis and Spondylosis, plus a pinched nerve. I have no idea what any of this is. I will try to shrink the documents and see if i can attach them that wayOriginally Posted by Augury
I explained what they were in my first big post. The bulging you mentioned causes stenosis. Stenosis is a narrowing of the tunnel through which the nerves of the spine pass out to the body. The bulges of the discs press against the tunnels and press on the nerves. This is what is pinching the nerve.Originally Posted by ogarchamplin
The spndylosis is arthritic degeneration of the vertebra and is mild as i recall from the MRI. Heavy training will aggrivate this and potentially turn it from mild to less appealing things. Beware. Let your doctors guide you as to what you can and cant do with spondylosis.
Ok thank you for your input, i guess my dreams of being a powerlifter is over. Geez i had a career ending injury before i even had a career...lolOriginally Posted by Augury
No. Dont loose hope. As i said in my original post...the word "degenerative" does not spell out doom. It is MILD according to the MRI. That means that it may be treatable with drugs...or it may be possible to train on with the right drugs. It may be fine to train on without drugs! it may be only just "into" the mild bracket and if you had gone in for a MRI a month ago wouldnt have shown up. Do you see where Im going with this?
For now you need to put your dream on hold. If you train now you will end up causing some sever damage and screaming in agony all the way to ER.
The doctors will guide you as to what loading you can put through your spine. Once the herniations (bulges) have cleared up the pinched nerve will also clear up. That will mean no more pain.
You will be left with the wedging, the nodes (i dont know how they are treated) and the spondylosis. Your body will compensate for the wedging (and possible ache as a result)...the nodes i dont know about. Once the Docs have said what you can and cant do...(tell them you want to carry on powerlifting)....then take the info they gave you and the MRI and go see a manual therapist like an osteopath, chiropractor or physio. They often have VERY different advice to give becasue they are used to the rehabilitation side of things.