The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
Latest Article

The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
More Recent Articles
Contrast Training for Size
By: Lee Boyce
An Interview with Marianne Kane of Girls Gone Strong
By: Jordan Syatt
What Supplements Should I be Taking? By: Jay Wainwright
Bench Like a Girl By: Julia Ladewski
Some Thoughts on Building a Big Pull By: Christopher Mason

Facebook Join Facebook Group       Twitter Follow on Twitter       rss Subscribe via RSS
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 27
  1. #1
    Wannabebig Member skyjumper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    86

    Intense Cardio Before Lifting

    This is the way I like to work out. I am a relatively big guy (6'1" 225), and I like to run. I may run for 20-25 min on the treadmill at an 8 min mile pace, and then go do squats, stiff-legged deads and donkey calves. I can't use quite as much weight as if I did cardio later or not at all, but I feel like I'm doing more work and getting much more out of it. It is definitely harder, and the results are good. Why is lifting with depleted glycogen levels a bad thing?

    Why do most shun cardio prior to lifting?

    Thanks

  2.    Support Wannabebig and use AtLarge Nutrition Supplements!


  3. #2
    Motors, Music & Muscle HemiVision's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    162
    Quote Originally Posted by skyjumper
    This is the way I like to work out. I am a relatively big guy (6'1" 225), and I like to run. I may run for 20-25 min on the treadmill at an 8 min mile pace, and then go do squats, stiff-legged deads and donkey calves. I can't use quite as much weight as if I did cardio later or not at all, but I feel like I'm doing more work and getting much more out of it. It is definitely harder, and the results are good. Why is lifting with depleted glycogen levels a bad thing?

    Why do most shun cardio prior to lifting?

    Thanks
    Your glycogen stores provide energy for lifting, which explains why you can't lift as much after depleting them with cardio. Working out at a reduced strength level is not conducive to muscle gains.

    Besides, your cardio will be more effective at fat burning once you've depleted your glycogen level with weights... so lifting first is win-win.

  4. #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    White Rock, B.C.
    Posts
    3,664
    Also, it is easier to run when tired than to squat or deadlift when tired, so it only makes sense to do the lifting first. In fact, for optimal results your cardio and lifting sessions should be separated, but this might not be an option for you.

  5. #4
    Wannabebig Member skyjumper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    86
    Quote Originally Posted by HemiVision
    Your glycogen stores provide energy for lifting, which explains why you can't lift as much after depleting them with cardio. Working out at a reduced strength level is not conducive to muscle gains.

    Besides, your cardio will be more effective at fat burning once you've depleted your glycogen level with weights... so lifting first is win-win.
    Thanks for the reply, but you made some invalid assumptions here:

    I lift nearly as much weight as when I don't do cardio (within 5-10 % I'd say), and I'm doing more work, so I am making significant muscle gains.

    My primary goal in doing cardio is not fat-burning, but performance (speed).

  6. #5
    Wannabebig Member skyjumper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    86
    Quote Originally Posted by Vido
    Also, it is easier to run when tired than to squat or deadlift when tired
    Says who? Remember, I'm talking about running/sprinting, not jogging. I think this boils down to a matter of preference and goals, but I can't see how cardio prior to lifting is counterproductive as I've seen others suggest.

  7. #6
    Newd poster SquareHead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    1,763
    Quote Originally Posted by skyjumper
    Says who? Remember, I'm talking about running/sprinting, not jogging. I think this boils down to a matter of preference and goals, but I can't see how cardio prior to lifting is counterproductive as I've seen others suggest.
    It dose not matter if you prefer to run or squat first. When you deplete glycogen stores by doing cardio before the lift your body will have less effective means for fueling the lift, it the lift will suffer.
    Old Journal


    " I'd give up a pinky or a toe or something I don't need those"
    -PwrMajt:

    "Remember, as long as you don't kick them in the head or use a weapon, it's only a misdemeanor." -JustinASU

    I nominate this thread for the Tim Nissen Award! -El P

  8. #7
    Bismarck in Training emjlr3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Abingdon, MD
    Posts
    802
    weight lifting will help your speed jsut fine and dandy...and if your going for speed you dont need to be doing cardio, there are specific things to do when working on that, of which id be happy to help you with just pm me

    Also i dont think cardio after a lift is good either, because after your done your lift your msucles are screaming for the food you eat to help em get better...but if u get straight to cardio for an hour then all that stuff goes to you running and not your muscles, which cant be good either....right????

  9. #8
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    12,778
    If you want more speed perhaps you should focus on running on a seperate day. Although, I'd think sprints would help speed more, unless you are training long distance or something like that.
    Deadlifts are like women, they'll hurt you everytime, but they'll also make you a man. - Me

    Friends don't let friends do dumbell kickbacks. - Me

    ElP is the smartest man in the world. - Gyno Rhino

    A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls. -- Dan Quayle

    If do right, no can defense. -- Mr. Miyagi

    Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey:

    I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

    Is there anything more beautiful than a beautiful, beautiful flamingo, flying across in front of a beautiful sunset? And he's carrying a beautiful rose in his beak, and also he's carrying a very beautiful painting with his feet. And also, you're drunk.

    Current FFFA Enforcer

  10. #9
    Wannabebig Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    69
    i myself do minimum cardio after a workout once a week, and maximum cardio twice a week without lifting

  11. #10
    Wannabebig Member skyjumper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    86
    Quote Originally Posted by emjlr3
    weight lifting will help your speed jsut fine and dandy...and if your going for speed you dont need to be doing cardio, there are specific things to do when working on that, of which id be happy to help you with just pm me

    Also i dont think cardio after a lift is good either, because after your done your lift your msucles are screaming for the food you eat to help em get better...but if u get straight to cardio for an hour then all that stuff goes to you running and not your muscles, which cant be good either....right????
    Are you suggesting that someone can be a fast runner without running? By cardio, I mean running.

    Your muscles do need energy to recover, and they are going to get it. Either from the food you consume immediately after working out, or stored fat.

    I appreciate all of your comments, but there is a bias here. Most on this board are focused on getting big (go figure!). I posted my style of working out because there are some of us that strive to be big AND fast AND lean.

    Those overly concerned about preserving every bit of energy for weight training and recovery remind me of turkeys or cattle that are bred for eating. They eat and eat so that they get nice and big, but they can't even fly because they aren't trained to do so.

  12. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    705
    Goodness Skyjumper...you are a little agressive towards other peoples ideas and opinions. Why post on a weight training forum if you do not want people who train for growth and power to respond to you?

    Anyway...regarding cardio before weights. I want to make a distinction between "hard work" and "tension". Hard work is sakting up a hill. Hard work is training on an empty stomach. hard work is doing 15 sets of 25 reps. The ONLY thing that stimulats muscle hypertrophy is tension through the muscle in question. That tension trigger level varies depending on how well that muscle is developed already. A huge percoral muscle will not trigger growth from having to bench press 10lbs.

    If your muscles are glycogen depleted they lack energy/fuel to contract effectively and efficiently.. When this is the case full fiber recruitment isnt going to happen and you will not be able to put a high enough tension through the muscle to stimulate growth.

    Pain, soreness, burning..."hard work" is just lactic acid bulidup from the muscles either working anerobically or running out of glycogen. Neither one of these mechanisms promotes hypertrophy.

    After all that, from what I understand you are looking to be able to sprint faster. Im sure you know as well as I, that sprinters have fairly powerful bodies with good LBM to help with the mechanical aspects of the sprint. If you want to grow the body effectively then training for growth is best done before glycogen depletion and lactic acid buildup. Obviously to increase your speed....then sprint training is the focused requirement. Bodybuliding does not make sprinters....sprinting does. The bodybuliding will help though.

    Augs

  13. #12
    Wannabebig Member skyjumper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    86
    Quote Originally Posted by Augury
    Goodness Skyjumper...you are a little agressive towards other peoples ideas and opinions. Why post on a weight training forum if you do not want people who train for growth and power to respond to you?

    Anyway...regarding cardio before weights. I want to make a distinction between "hard work" and "tension". Hard work is sakting up a hill. Hard work is training on an empty stomach. hard work is doing 15 sets of 25 reps. The ONLY thing that stimulats muscle hypertrophy is tension through the muscle in question. That tension trigger level varies depending on how well that muscle is developed already. A huge percoral muscle will not trigger growth from having to bench press 10lbs.

    If your muscles are glycogen depleted they lack energy/fuel to contract effectively and efficiently.. When this is the case full fiber recruitment isnt going to happen and you will not be able to put a high enough tension through the muscle to stimulate growth.

    Pain, soreness, burning..."hard work" is just lactic acid bulidup from the muscles either working anerobically or running out of glycogen. Neither one of these mechanisms promotes hypertrophy.

    After all that, from what I understand you are looking to be able to sprint faster. Im sure you know as well as I, that sprinters have fairly powerful bodies with good LBM to help with the mechanical aspects of the sprint. If you want to grow the body effectively then training for growth is best done before glycogen depletion and lactic acid buildup. Obviously to increase your speed....then sprint training is the focused requirement. Bodybuliding does not make sprinters....sprinting does. The bodybuliding will help though.

    Augs
    Good stuff, thanks. As far as your 1st para, not sure what you mean, I clearly asked for responses from others.

  14. #13
    Motors, Music & Muscle HemiVision's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    162
    Quote Originally Posted by skyjumper
    Thanks for the reply, but you made some invalid assumptions here:

    I lift nearly as much weight as when I don't do cardio (within 5-10 % I'd say), and I'm doing more work, so I am making significant muscle gains.
    What do you mean by "more work" ? If you're lifting less weight for the same or fewer reps, you're doing less work.

  15. #14
    Big Swinging Dick dxiw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    370
    you should try to jog lightly to warmup or if it has to be intense preworkout do a cardio that doesnt highly involve the muscle groups you are working.. then after the workout get some protein and do your hard cardio an hour later or a few hours before...

    225lb @ 17% bodyfat, currently cutting
    Current lifts while cutting (all raw): bench 275x4, squat 365x8
    Estimated current maxes: 300 bench / 450 dead / 450 squat
    Competition / Gym PRs (from March 08)
    Bench: 325 raw / 385 loose shirt
    Deadlift: 450 raw ADFPF 04/26/08
    Squat: 405 raw

  16. #15
    Bismarck in Training emjlr3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Abingdon, MD
    Posts
    802
    yea dude your sorta mean ...ill have you know im probaably stronger then you, have less bf then you, run faster then you and jump higher then you...so i know what im talking about......to get faster and jump higher you dont do "cardio" per say, you train your fast twitch muscles fibers to be better...by doing so you dont run for long distances...you do short explosions workouts to help accompish this, and is aurgry said...and like i said....if u go and run for a whiel then lift...thats not a good thing..you either do one or the other..or your not going to get the reults out of either that you want
    Last edited by emjlr3; 06-10-2004 at 05:58 AM.

  17. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    705
    Quote Originally Posted by HemiVision
    What do you mean by "more work" ? If you're lifting less weight for the same or fewer reps, you're doing less work.
    This whole concept is a valid point HemiVision and you are right. But its one that confuses folks all over the world. Its the difference between "percieved work" - what you feel you are doing/how hard you feel you are working....and actual work done as described by physics.

    Work done = force x distance moved. Thats the physics. however if i tell you to pick up a 25k dumbell and hold it out at arms length and hold it real still...according to physics you are doing no work whatsoever. Distance traveled is zero. Your muscles are not changing length...they are holding a weight still. However not very long after this, you are going to drop that weight and come hit me becasue it REALLY REALLY burned and hurt you to do it. Why? Becasue you are resitisting gravity's constant downwards acceleration, even though you are not movng the weight at all. You are still having to cycle muscle fibers...as the ones holding the weight still tire, they relax and other fibers in the same muscle are recruited and take up the slack. You get lactic acid buildup and it eventually burns so much you will drop the weight.

    So, its perfectly possible, if you are in a state of mild to medium exhaustion (post cardio activity) to do a milder weight training routine than you could have if you were rested but still percieve you were working much harder than the heavier but rested session. The reality of it is that physics disagrees. You FEEL you are working harder, you are more tired, you are panting and sweating...but these things do not stimulate muscle growth. Tension does. The rested, heavier weight training session moves higher weights/loads (force) over the same distances as the other, more "exhausting" but lighter session and so in the heavy session you do more mechanical work. Thus you stimulate the muscles more heavily for a growth response.

  18. #17
    Motors, Music & Muscle HemiVision's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    162
    Quote Originally Posted by Augury
    This whole concept is a valid point HemiVision and you are right. But its one that confuses folks all over the world. Its the difference between "percieved work" - what you feel you are doing/how hard you feel you are working....and actual work done as described by physics.

    Work done = force x distance moved. Thats the physics. however if i tell you to pick up a 25k dumbell and hold it out at arms length and hold it real still...according to physics you are doing no work whatsoever. Distance traveled is zero. Your muscles are not changing length...they are holding a weight still. However not very long after this, you are going to drop that weight and come hit me becasue it REALLY REALLY burned and hurt you to do it. Why? Becasue you are resitisting gravity's constant downwards acceleration, even though you are not movng the weight at all. You are still having to cycle muscle fibers...as the ones holding the weight still tire, they relax and other fibers in the same muscle are recruited and take up the slack. You get lactic acid buildup and it eventually burns so much you will drop the weight.

    So, its perfectly possible, if you are in a state of mild to medium exhaustion (post cardio activity) to do a milder weight training routine than you could have if you were rested but still percieve you were working much harder than the heavier but rested session. The reality of it is that physics disagrees. You FEEL you are working harder, you are more tired, you are panting and sweating...but these things do not stimulate muscle growth. Tension does. The rested, heavier weight training session moves higher weights/loads (force) over the same distances as the other, more "exhausting" but lighter session and so in the heavy session you do more mechanical work. Thus you stimulate the muscles more heavily for a growth response.

    Exactly right, and a great explanation.

  19. #18
    Wannabebig Member skyjumper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    86
    Quote Originally Posted by HemiVision
    What do you mean by "more work" ? If you're lifting less weight for the same or fewer reps, you're doing less work.

    You're right hemi, but as augry said, I felt like I was working harder after pre-exhaustion from running.

  20. #19
    Wannabebig Member skyjumper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    86
    Quote Originally Posted by emjlr3
    yea dude your sorta mean ...ill have you know im probaably stronger then you, have less bf then you, run faster then you and jump higher then you...so i know what im talking about......to get faster and jump higher you dont do "cardio" per say
    emjlr3 I'd be glad to take you on head-to-head in the sport of your choice anytime, anywhere. You did suggest one thing of value though, what do most mean when they say "cardio"? I should have been more clear about that. I am training to perform well in a two-mile run, with a powerful, sprinting, kick. This is the distance for the Army PT test. It is a constant struggle for any career soldier to get and stay big while maintaing the ability to run two miles in under 14 minutes (no juicing either).

  21. #20
    Wannabebig Member skyjumper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    86
    Quote Originally Posted by Augury
    You FEEL you are working harder, you are more tired, you are panting and sweating...but these things do not stimulate muscle growth. Tension does. The rested, heavier weight training session moves higher weights/loads (force) over the same distances as the other, more "exhausting" but lighter session and so in the heavy session you do more mechanical work. Thus you stimulate the muscles more heavily for a growth response.
    I've been asking this same question in various forums for years, brought it up during personal training certification, done research in the library and online, etc. This is the best explanation I have ever received. You spelled it out so that even I get it. Thanks.

    Now this question: to maximize that growth response, how much recovery is required prior to running hard again? A challenge for me because to be a good two-miler/sprinter I need to get probably a minimum of 20 miles/week.

  22. #21
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    White Rock, B.C.
    Posts
    3,664
    Quote Originally Posted by Augury
    You FEEL you are working harder, you are more tired, you are panting and sweating...but these things do not stimulate muscle growth. Tension does. The rested, heavier weight training session moves higher weights/loads (force) over the same distances as the other, more "exhausting" but lighter session and so in the heavy session you do more mechanical work. Thus you stimulate the muscles more heavily for a growth response.
    With this in mind, try to explain the Weider pre-exhaustion principle.

  23. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    705
    Quote Originally Posted by Vido
    With this in mind, try to explain the Weider pre-exhaustion principle.
    Im just a lowly anatomist/physiologist in the making. If you tell me what the weilder pre-exhaustion principal is ill have a shot at explaining it (or being baffled by it). Im assumig from the post that it flies in the face of what i said. Im happy to have a go though.

  24. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    705
    Quote Originally Posted by skyjumper
    to maximize that growth response, how much recovery is required prior to running hard again? A challenge for me because to be a good two-miler/sprinter I need to get probably a minimum of 20 miles/week.
    Hmm. As the months go by people keep developing different answers to that question. The fashionable number seemingly bandied about right now is that protein synthesis and growth is pretty much done after 36 hours. I would have thought that sprinting practice (for functional strength) was more important to you than hypertrophic growth though....and so as such i would not worry overly. Do your sprinting the day after the weights. that will give you 24 hours. Just feed well.

    Im probably going to get people screaming at me saying that it takes 72 hours for your muscles to recover etc etc. I didnt make the 36 hours up...im pretty sure i read it over at the HST site or bodyrecomposition (or both). Besides recovery is what? when you stop feeling sore? when protein synthesis has stopped for the muscle? Many athletes train on sore muscles every day. Its an interesting area of discussion that i like read about. I by no means claim to know a "correct" answer.

  25. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    White Rock, B.C.
    Posts
    3,664
    Quote Originally Posted by Augury
    Im just a lowly anatomist/physiologist in the making. If you tell me what the weilder pre-exhaustion principal is ill have a shot at explaining it (or being baffled by it). Im assumig from the post that it flies in the face of what i said. Im happy to have a go though.
    You "pre-exhaust" the muscle you are working by doing an isolation movement before your compound movement. An example would be doing flyes, and then going straight into a set of bench. You would not be able to lift as much on bench, but the idea is that the target muscle has already been fried. The premise behind the principle is that it is usually not one's chest that fails on a set of bench, but one's tris or shoulders. This hopefully allows your chest to be the determining factor in how many reps you can pump out.

    Weider never said to use this every workout, but to incorporate it once in a while for a change. I only bring it up because it basically goes completely against the grain of your explanation of what causes hypertrophy.

  26. #25
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    At a slight angle to the universe
    Posts
    1,816
    Of course you can do both. Ignore the people who say otherwise skyjumper. Basically it depends on your goals that session. There are athletes like rowers, boxers and sprinters who will train up to ten times a week and will be lifting on 3 out of seven days and they will be [I]huge and fast[I]. On your weights days it is probably best to cardio afterwards and keep it light(ish) if you are looking for a really good weights session and do weights afterwards if you want to do hard cardio that day and be fresh for that. I have done weights sessions after 60min cardio and still produced results. The way these sort of athletes who "have it all" manage to do so much endurance work and yet keep their muscle mass is by eating! I know that international rowers eat over 6000 calories a day (which is mostly carbohydrate) and these guys are 100+Kg. What I'm saying is, doing both types of training will slow down your muscle gains but not stop them. And you have to eat more and sleep more to recuperate.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •