I had this post nestled at the bottom of skyjumpers cardio thread, but at 8minutes a mile I dont think he was hitting 85% hr...it was borderline...anyway..I figured this would be interesting to some.
Looking for opinions supporting/dissenting, and studies to backup/refute this?
I have done 8-14 minute anabolic cardio sessions pre-workout with fantastic results in fat loss and muscle growth compared to doing 15 minutes of aerobic cardio post workout, or none at all. I thought I might be a freak...and since so many people poopoo cardio on here I just never said anything, but while mining google for info for skyjumper I came across this plethora of information that supports in theory, anabolic cardio. (yes, it uses a lot of the theory behind HIIT benefit)
The only danger, is cortisol release as high intensity running is gunna make it pump which could limit your post cardio routine.
However on the plus sideafter about 20 minutes of high intensity work, cortisol levels shoot through the roof. With that said, for high intensity (85-95% VO2 max) cardio to have the most benefit in its muscle building/fat burning properties, sessions should be kept under 20 min
intense cardio is going to pump you with testosterone similar to the 35% rise that you get from doing heavy squats, U'll get a boost in growth hormone and IGF1, so this type of anabolic cardio serves a legit purpose especially on days when ur doing smaller muscle groups using fewer compound movements.cardio creates the same anabolic state and window of opportunity as heavy weight training.
specific supps to limit cortisol release
Having Insulin and carbohydrates present before and during a cardio session seems to slow the muscle destroying action of cortisol, epinephrine and norepinephrinecreatine, glutamine and IGF-1 promoters (Super Bovine Serum) would also be ideal at this time in a pre-cardio mixprotein should be added to the mix. High intensity cardio uses a lot of muscle groups and makes use of a lot of the type II fibers. The same ones we use during weight training. This action alone will be drawing the glucose and amino acids directly to every last one of them.
Whey hydrolysates, isolates and concentrates, in order of preference, are what should be taken in the period immediately after any work out.
As far as what type of cardio to do, interval seems key...
Also of note"cycling" the amount of cardio you do, in volume and intensity, seems to further stimulate the fast twitch (the big ones) muscle fibers to grow
Unfortunately IGF1 production is localize, so use a full body stressing machine like an eliptical and USE the hand bars to pull and push...not just for balance! When I do anabolic cardio I set the machine to maximum resistance (level 20) and nail that biatch for every ounce I've got for 10-15 minutes, then go lift...you decide to do more than one cardio session a day, the release of GH is magnified with every time (19. J. App. Physiol 83(5) pp. 1756-61 )
all my quotes came from these 2 articles:effects of IGF-I on muscle seem to be "local", meaning it has to be produced by, or introduced into the muscle . And because contracting muscle has an insulting-like action (you probably call it the "pump"), all the extra movement from the cardio will be drawing more IGF-I in to cells. So it would be wise to find some type of cardio that uses a lot of different muscle groups.
You can calculate your 85% heartrate threshold here:
also its probably not advisable for anyone taking thermogenics, or anyone over 18% bf
I'm 28, 66bpm hr (at 12pm) and my 85% rate is 173...so u gotta be MOVING to get to that kinda level.
Last edited by geoffgarcia; 06-09-2004 at 09:48 AM.
Your a crazy guy, by the way fixed the image thing good looking out.
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I believe the article mentioned 85-95% VO2 max, not 85% max heart rate. This is basically a summary of the hormonal benefits to HIIT or near-lactate thershold (high-intensity) cardio. I do not believe that such transient anabolic hormonal changes are very significant, although some forms of intense cardio have similar hormonal responses to a weight training session. On the other hand such intense workouts may have more significant effects on lipid metabolism and body composition. I would not recommend fatiguing yourself with intense cardio before a weight training session as it may reduce performance, increase catabolism, and interfere with recovery.
True but its ballpark.Originally Posted by aka23
91% MHR = 84%VO2 max According to this calculator, so for me, 90% HR would be 171bpm, 95% is 181, 100% is 192 would be ballpark.
another calc. (According to the American College of Sports Medicine exercise at 80% of VO2 max corresponds with 88% of maximum heart rate)
You point out the valid arguments against such a routine, namely the performance reduction and recovery issues.
The question becomes which would be better...working slightly less muscle fibers in a temporarily elevated anabolic state or working slightly more in a normal state.
I think the impact on recovery is going to be minimal and shouldn't exceed a normal recovery time since you aren't pushing yourself to failure.
I'd agree that this type of cardio should not be done on every workout day, I'm not advocating a person do 20 minutes of it then go do 8 sets of 4rep squats...that would be stoopid. But I think it can be useful under certain workout routines, perhaps 8-10 minutes before a shoulder routine.
The only thing I'm hesitant about agreeing with is how would it increase catabolism any more than a bout of heavy lifting?
Last edited by geoffgarcia; 06-09-2004 at 11:13 AM.
EDIT: Comment Removed
I wrote "I would not recommend fatiguing yourself with intense cardio before a weight training session as it may reduce performance, increase catabolism, and interfere with recovery."
I was referring to doing the two activities sequentially. High-intensity cardio can rapidly deplete glycogen reserves. One study by Hultman & Bosch found 50% glycogen depletion at 30 minutes at 120%VO2Max (sprint HIIT), and ~15 minutes at 150% VO2Max (sprint HIIT). Reduced glycogen levels increases risk of catabolism.
In many ways, a HIIT session resembles a weight training session. Some types of weight training are a form of HIIT. Just as doing two weight sessions in a row without a post-workout meal may interfere with recovery, skipping the post workout meal may interfere with recovery of a HIIT session.
Protein synthesis does not occur during the weight training session to a significant extent. I would not concern myself with minor anabolic hormonal responses during the weight training session.
Last edited by aka23; 06-09-2004 at 11:54 AM.
This is good stuff geoff. Thanks, I wish you had posted it on the other thread, it is very relevant to what I was asking. In training for a 2-mile run, I think I would benefit from a 15 minute cardio session at a high rate of intensity. I am going to read these articles and comment more later.
sky, yah I had initially posted it in ur post but I questioned if u were actually running fast enough to trigger this type of response...as such I didn't want to distract from responses to ur thread by changing the topic slightly....
hope u find something useful!
BTW, working out at 170+ hr means ur working ur balls off...