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Thread: Fahrenheit 9/11

  1. #301
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    second that motion. too bad because this was a good thread while it remained on topic

  2. #302
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
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    If everyone could stick to the damn points, and not keep referring to an issue that had been resolved several posts ago it might be constructive.

    How many times does GulfVet have to say the exact same thing, before the next automaton comes in and spews the same re:tarded stuff about his copy/paste?

    Continue.
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  3. #303
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
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    So here are the topics that AREN'T on the agenda.

    GulfVet's copied quotes.
    Discussion on closing the thread.

    Now carry on.

    Oh, and proceed with caution if you plan on straying off topic.
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    If do right, no can defense. -- Mr. Miyagi

    Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey:

    I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

    Is there anything more beautiful than a beautiful, beautiful flamingo, flying across in front of a beautiful sunset? And he's carrying a beautiful rose in his beak, and also he's carrying a very beautiful painting with his feet. And also, you're drunk.

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  4. #304
    mind/body zen's Avatar
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    The OT debate is dead anyway.
    I dunno why people care.
    The film is obviously a politically motivated hit piece.
    Any and all facts used in making this film are coincidental and used to attempt to add an aire of truth to the propaganda.

  5. #305
    Banned Slim Schaedle's Avatar
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    Jazer - even though those very people he was trying to make seem like they were too good for the war have a higher chance of having someone in their household in the service than the average american household

    Slim - Your comment refers to service personel in general, meaning the entire armed forces.

    Your post that examines Moore's deceits explains the ratio pertaining to service personel in Iraq.

    This is not the same.


    Jazer, just wondering if you were going to explain/dispute this further?

  6. #306
    I want some crack! TBone4Eva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GulfVet91
    My post says that a reduction was in effect but the Clinton Admin speeded it up and took it too far by deploying more forces while decreasing spending. Tecnology dictates force size. Out of date weapon platforms cost more to maintain. The problem was that he was cutting forces without replacing anything. The spending that the military does helps in the long run. I would say compare the bombings during WWII and our latest conflict, but I can say that all you have to do is look as far back as the 1st Gulf War. If Clinton really wanted to reduce forces, he should not have committed more troops to more places througout the world more times than any other president!

    This is fun, isn't it?!
    How about we get more efficient with our military dollars. As was mentioned before the US spends far more on defense than any other country. Let's take a look shall we:

    MILITARY BUDGET (Dollars in Billions)
    U.S. $343.2 2002

    North Atlantic Treaty Organization
    U.K. $34.5 2000
    France $27.0 2000
    Germany $23.3 2000
    Other NATO* $62.3 2000

    Asia/Pacific Allies
    Japan $45.6 2000
    South Korea $12.8 2000
    Australia $7.1 2000

    Total U.S. & Allies $555.8

    Potential “Enemies”**
    Iran $7.5 2000
    Syria $1.8 2000
    Iraq $1.4 1999
    North Korea $1.3 2000
    Libya $1.2 2000
    Cuba $0.8 1999
    Sudan $0.4 2000

    Total $14.4

    Other Countries with Significant Militaries
    Russia $56.0 1999
    China $39.5 1999
    India $15.9 2000
    Taiwan $12.8 2000
    Pakistan $3.3 2000

    NOTE:

    * Other NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organization) includes Belgium, Canada, The Czech Republic, Denmark, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy,
    Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Spain, Turkey.
    ** As defined by the U.S. Department of Defense. Iran was removed from the list in March, 1999.
    SOURCE: International Institute for Strategic Studies, U.S. Department of Defense. Table prepared by the Center for Defense Information.


    So, we out spent our enemies by $328.8 Billion and you are complaining about reductions in spending?
    Last edited by TBone4Eva; 07-21-2004 at 03:55 PM.
    The half-million citizens of the District of Columbia, like citizens of the fifty states, bear all of the obligations of American citizenship: they are required to obey the laws passed by Congress; they pay federal taxes; they serve in the military; and they fight and die in our wars. Yet they lack the most basic right that should accompany American citizenship—the right to full voting representation in Congress. This makes the United States the only nation in the world with a representative, democratic constitution that denies citizens of its capital representation in the national legislature. In fact, no fewer than 183 nations provide their citizens the type of representation citizens of Washington, DC are denied.

  7. #307
    Professional hobbit Focused70's Avatar
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    If only there were more shots of Moore reading the USA Patriot Act.

    I find it very interesting that in this discussion of F 9/11 (yes, I've read most of the posts but took a break from the thread until *cough* recently) that there's been very little discussion of the USA Patriot Act and Patriot Act II.

    What are your thoughts regarding those?

    edit: For those of you who are interested, here is a link to the text of the USA Patriot Act, formally known as the 'Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism (USA PATRIOT ACT) Act of 2001' and a link to a draft of the USA Patriot Act II. Makes for interesting reading imo.

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  8. #308
    Party of "No." Tryska's Avatar
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    personally i was shocked the first time around, by the fact that my financial records can be viewed, should they feel the need to. and this time i'm shocked and apalled that what i choose to read is fair game as well.

    this stuff is downright orwellian.
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  9. #309
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
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    Lol, Moore was on the Howard Stern show this morning. One thing that came up that I found somewhat surprising, is where the budget is going.

    US spent about $500 million on homeland security in the past year, but spend that much every two days in Iraq.
    Deadlifts are like women, they'll hurt you everytime, but they'll also make you a man. - Me

    Friends don't let friends do dumbell kickbacks. - Me

    ElP is the smartest man in the world. - Gyno Rhino

    A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls. -- Dan Quayle

    If do right, no can defense. -- Mr. Miyagi

    Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey:

    I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

    Is there anything more beautiful than a beautiful, beautiful flamingo, flying across in front of a beautiful sunset? And he's carrying a beautiful rose in his beak, and also he's carrying a very beautiful painting with his feet. And also, you're drunk.

    Current FFFA Enforcer

  10. #310
    Banned Slim Schaedle's Avatar
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    But it is likely that Bush and posse claim the Iraq involvement as being homeland security. Therefore they can claim that they acually spend more. (note: I am just assuming here)

    Also, since this was revealed in a conversation involving Moore, then it must be obscured truth, twisted to his liking, right? (sarcasm)

    Too bad all that money can't be spent on something like education. Then we would have people who are actually smart enough to form their own opinions and not swallow all that the government is feeding them about this conflict. Then again, the same would apply to films such as F-911. (this comment is not specifically directed to anyone on this board)

  11. #311
    mind/body zen's Avatar
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    Almost anyone who WANTS an education in the United States can get one.
    Funding is no excuse.
    The problem with public education in the US is how it is run, now how it is funded.

    Vouchers would have vastly improved the problem of urban children not having access to institutions that are more oriented around providing quality education, but the democrats wouldn't have that. They'd rather have the poor urban minorities remain in the ghetto all their lives and stuck receiving the crappy public eduction in their local public school district. I can't understand how democrats, who always claim to be for minorities and who always claim to be so compasionate, would block school choice issues.

    With vouchers, the ghetto schools that currently "don't care" would be scared sh1tless that all the parents would take their tax money elsewhere and those schools would be properly motivated to start trying to provide a quality education (or wither, in which case you could consider it darwinism of school systems, and a good school would move in to fill the vacuum).

    Bush passed the biggest spending increase on education ever. Even though his heart is in the right place, spending more money wont really help. The school choice issue would help more than anything.

    I'm will to bet that Michael Mooore is so much in line with the democrat party agenda that even though he preaches his love for minorities, he opposed school choice.
    Someone correct me if I am wrong. Where does moore stand on school choice?
    Last edited by zen; 07-22-2004 at 10:18 AM.

  12. #312
    Banned Slim Schaedle's Avatar
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    I didn't mean to open this can of worms.

  13. #313
    I want some crack! TBone4Eva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zen
    Almost anyone who WANTS an education in the United States can get one.
    Funding is no excuse.
    The problem with public education in the US is how it is run, now how it is funded.

    Vouchers would have vastly improved the problem of urban children not having access to institutions that are more oriented around providing quality education, but the democrats wouldn't have that. They'd rather have the poor urban minorities remain in the ghetto all their lives and stuck receiving the crappy public eduction in their local public school district. I can't understand how democrats, who always claim to be for minorities and who always claim to be so compasionate, would block school choice issues.

    With vouchers, the ghetto schools that currently "don't care" would be scared sh1tless that all the parents would take their tax money elsewhere and those schools would be properly motivated to start trying to provide a quality education (or wither, in which case you could consider it darwinism of school systems, and a good school would move in to fill the vacuum).

    Bush passed the biggest spending increase on education ever. Even though his heart is in the right place, spending more money wont really help. The school choice issue would help more than anything.

    I'm will to bet that Michael Mooore is so much in line with the democrat party agenda that even though he preaches his love for minorities, he opposed school choice.
    Someone correct me if I am wrong. Where does moore stand on school choice?
    Well, we will see because DC is the guinea pig with the vouchers. It starts this fall. I'm in favor of any alternative that will give kids a good start in life. DC spends more $10,000 per student to educate every year and yet it is one of, if not the, worst school system in the country. Like Zen said, throwing more money at it won't do anything but make the problem worse. There needs to be a complete overhaul of the system.
    The half-million citizens of the District of Columbia, like citizens of the fifty states, bear all of the obligations of American citizenship: they are required to obey the laws passed by Congress; they pay federal taxes; they serve in the military; and they fight and die in our wars. Yet they lack the most basic right that should accompany American citizenship—the right to full voting representation in Congress. This makes the United States the only nation in the world with a representative, democratic constitution that denies citizens of its capital representation in the national legislature. In fact, no fewer than 183 nations provide their citizens the type of representation citizens of Washington, DC are denied.

  14. #314
    Party of "No." Tryska's Avatar
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    "no child left behind" and it's standardized testing isn't the answer imo.
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  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Schaedle
    Jazer - even though those very people he was trying to make seem like they were too good for the war have a higher chance of having someone in their household in the service than the average american household

    Slim - Your comment refers to service personel in general, meaning the entire armed forces.

    Your post that examines Moore's deceits explains the ratio pertaining to service personel in Iraq.

    This is not the same.


    Jazer, just wondering if you were going to explain/dispute this further?
    no i don't want to dispute this, or dispute how people quote things, or dispute the definition of 'documentary'. i would consider those a waste of time. we were talking about iraq and i wasn't specific in my response to you, my bad, i just wasn't being careful enough in my response.

  16. #316
    bench, deadlift & eat!!!!! Mic Soloist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCC
    I wouldn't waste a penny on that douche bag. The film is probably just as deceptive as Bowling for Columbine. Totally a waste of time.


    totally agree


    Michael Moore is a lying sack of liberal ****

  17. #317
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mic Soloist
    totally agree


    Michael Moore is a lying sack of liberal ****


    Again, I agree.


    That said, G.W. Bush is both a lying and incompetent sack of pseudo-conservative horse pucky.


    One makes movies. The other has ordered 900 Americans to their deaths in a war that does nothing to make America safer.

  18. #318
    bench, deadlift & eat!!!!! Mic Soloist's Avatar
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    *supports Bush all the way*

  19. #319
    Banned Slim Schaedle's Avatar
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    How?
    Nevermind, there's no point in going into all of that.
    Last edited by Slim Schaedle; 07-22-2004 at 04:40 PM.

  20. #320
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash
    Again, I agree.


    That said, G.W. Bush is both a lying and incompetent sack of pseudo-conservative horse pucky.


    One makes movies. The other has ordered 900 Americans to their deaths in a war that does nothing to make America safer.
    That's a very good way to put things in perspective.
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