The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    Senior Member
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    upright rows vs. lateral raises

    is there a need to do both? i like the rows because it's more "compound", but am i missing anything if i cut out the raises?

    thanks all

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  3. #2
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    Cut out the rows. One of the worst exercises in the world to do along with such notables as the arnold press and behind the neck presses. It's a good way to mess up the rc. Also no need for two exercises that target the side lats.

  4. #3
    HomeYield WillKuenzel's Avatar
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    Personally I prefer the upright rows. I like the more compound movements and because I've never had any problems with the rotator cuffs. I still regularly do press the behind the neck. If you have rotator cuff problems then I'm not sure I'd recommend them but if you don't have any shoulder problems, rows would be better. You do what exercise will utilize more weight as that is how you'll grow bigger.

    I'm not saying lateral raises won't help with shoulder growth but if you can more more weight with upright rows then why waste your time doing lateral raises.
    What is elite?
    "Those who work the hardest often complain the least." -anonymous
    Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.

  5. #4
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    Ok, so you want a more compound movement, great. Do some cuban presses for instance, but do not, I repeat do not do upright rows. Here is why.

    The Upright Row is one of the most harmful exercises you can expose your shoulders to. The problem with the exercise lies in the position your arms must be in in order to perform the movement. This position is called "internal rotation."

    To demonstrate internal rotation, hold your arms straight out to the sides with your palms down. Now rotate your hands forward as if you were pouring out a glass of water in each. To do the upright row, the arms are bent at the elbow then internally rotated.

    Internal rotation itself is not necessarily bad for your shoulders. The problem comes when you raise the arms up and add resistance in that position. Every time you raise the weight, a small tendon in your shoulder gets pinched (known as impingement) by the bones in the shoulder.

    This may not hurt immediately; it may not even hurt for a long, long time. The problem is the tendon will gradually become worn down and damaged. You may not even know you have a problem until one day the tendon snaps!

    As for behind the neck presses To do the movement, you must maximally externally rotate the shoulders. this places the shoulders in a very vulnerable position, which can easily result in strain in the Rotator Cuff muscles.most people simply don't have the necessary shoulder flexibility to get a straight line on the movement - they must tilt their head forward to get the bar behind it, adding greatly to the possibility of injury.

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomeYield
    ...but if you can more more weight with upright rows then why waste your time doing lateral raises.
    yeah that's what i was thinking.

  7. #6
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    Do cuban rotations then.

    But I will keep saying it until I am blue in the face DO NOT DO UPRIGHT ROWS!

    I cringe everytime I see someone doing these.

  8. #7
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-Man
    Do cuban rotations then.

    But I will keep saying it until I am blue in the face DO NOT DO UPRIGHT ROWS!

    I cringe everytime I see someone doing these.
    Me too. I will also add that in my personal experience upright rows and any motion behind the neck does bad, bad things to my shoulders.

  9. #8
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    BTW, that should have read cuban presses but I'm sure you all realized that

  10. #9
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    I don't understand saying that upright rows are worse for the rotator cuff... I have rotator cuff problems and do uprights rows because they cause me less pain.

  11. #10
    MilliVanilli
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    "The problem comes when you raise the arms up and add resistance in that position. Every time you raise the weight, a small tendon in your shoulder gets pinched (known as impingement) by the bones in the shoulder.

    This may not hurt immediately; it may not even hurt for a long, long time. The problem is the tendon will gradually become worn down and damaged. You may not even know you have a problem until one day the tendon snaps!"

    **** @ that. I was doing them the other day, and felt a tendon getting pinched I just didnt think it was a usually problem. It makes your entire arm feel cut off

  12. #11
    HomeYield WillKuenzel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-Man
    Do cuban rotations then.

    But I will keep saying it until I am blue in the face DO NOT DO UPRIGHT ROWS!

    I cringe everytime I see someone doing these.
    What do you suggest for those dong snatches or power cleans? The grip may be different but during that movement you will be doing an upright row as part of the lift.

    Or high pulls. They are all very closely related.
    What is elite?
    "Those who work the hardest often complain the least." -anonymous
    Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.

  13. #12
    Senior Member wrestlemaniac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-Man
    Ok, so you want a more compound movement, great. Do some cuban presses for instance, but do not, I repeat do not do upright rows. Here is why.

    The Upright Row is one of the most harmful exercises you can expose your shoulders to. The problem with the exercise lies in the position your arms must be in in order to perform the movement. This position is called "internal rotation."

    To demonstrate internal rotation, hold your arms straight out to the sides with your palms down. Now rotate your hands forward as if you were pouring out a glass of water in each. To do the upright row, the arms are bent at the elbow then internally rotated.

    Internal rotation itself is not necessarily bad for your shoulders. The problem comes when you raise the arms up and add resistance in that position. Every time you raise the weight, a small tendon in your shoulder gets pinched (known as impingement) by the bones in the shoulder.

    This may not hurt immediately; it may not even hurt for a long, long time. The problem is the tendon will gradually become worn down and damaged. You may not even know you have a problem until one day the tendon snaps!

    As for behind the neck presses To do the movement, you must maximally externally rotate the shoulders. this places the shoulders in a very vulnerable position, which can easily result in strain in the Rotator Cuff muscles.most people simply don't have the necessary shoulder flexibility to get a straight line on the movement - they must tilt their head forward to get the bar behind it, adding greatly to the possibility of injury.
    dude, the custom on the internet is to atleast mention the website you copy your info from : http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/betteru26.htm

    Edit : Also this site also says the sit up is dangerous. I know this has been the fad thing to say for about the past 15 years but as someone who's done them regularly since childhood and has never experienced any serious back pain I'd have to question it.
    Last edited by wrestlemaniac; 07-25-2004 at 01:00 PM.

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomeYield
    if you can more more weight with upright rows then why waste your time doing lateral raises.
    have you noticed how seated calf raise machines are usually in a 3 to 1 ratio? That means for each pound you put on there, you are subjecting your calves to 3 pounds of resistence.

    Same deal with side laterals. Since the weight is so far out, you can use as many poundages--BUT that does not mean you are not stressing the msucles as much as upright rows. Given the leverage distance, doing 2 pound of upright rows stresses the delts the same as 1 pound of side laterals. So 2 pounds vs. 1 pound to get the same result -- and guess which one is less damaging?

  15. #14
    HomeYield WillKuenzel's Avatar
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    Same with the pec deck but do you recommend it over the bench press?

    Quote Originally Posted by MellowFellow
    have you noticed how seated calf raise machines are usually in a 3 to 1 ratio? That means for each pound you put on there, you are subjecting your calves to 3 pounds of resistence.
    That's the difference between your soleus (seated) and your gastrocnemius (standing or other). Not necessarily the difference between angles.
    Last edited by WillKuenzel; 07-25-2004 at 01:44 PM.
    What is elite?
    "Those who work the hardest often complain the least." -anonymous
    Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.

  16. #15
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    whats this about the pec dec? is it bad for you also? please clarify

  17. #16
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomeYield
    What do you suggest for those dong snatches or power cleans? The grip may be different but during that movement you will be doing an upright row as part of the lift.

    Or high pulls. They are all very closely related.
    No, no you're not at all. Indeed, that's why I love cleans and high pulls, and hate upright rows.

    At the the high position in an upright row, you're holding the weight in front of you, which is creating a rotational force (downward) on your shoulders. This is BAD for your rotators.

    In all of the olympic lift variations, all the effort is done before the weight is at chest height, and then you drop under (cleans, snatches), or just drop the weight (high pulls). You're pulling mostly straight up, and there are no rotational forces on your shoulders. This is ideal.

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