The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    Leave this blank, right?
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    WHAT iS THE BEST WORKOUT ROUTINE OUT THERE????

    Ok, I've reached a point where I have gained some mass, but it's stabilized. I haven't been able to exceed. And another thing is, I gain mass, but I am trying to get that big look, but that big and cut look. I don't want to have mass and make it look just big, but rather nice and toned. I am 5'5, and being short, Istill look like a have a small frame.

    Therefore, can you guys let me know what would be the best workout routine possible to gain mass PLUS get cut. I know it will require training and diet.

    This is my current routine (which usually changes every month or moves days):

    M--legs/calves (includes squats, leg press, leg extensions, leg curls, lunges, sitting and standing calves)--NOT ALL ON SAME DAY

    T--back (I use the barbell, dumbells, cables and of course, wide-grip pull down and seated row)

    W-chest (bench, incline and decline on smith or dumbell, machine flys, or cable/dumbell flys)

    TH--arms (sometimes use cable, dumbells, barbells for tris/bis)

    FR--shoulders (includes pulls ups, front/side raises, traps, military press)

    ABS--I try to do them twice a week, but I still have no definition. With abs, I used to just do crunches, now I started to do the ones (dont know the names) you raise your legs up high, or the ones you move your legs forward towards your chest, and another where you twist from side to side on the floor.

    As for diet, I know I can do better. I eat only 4-5 regular meals, but I do drink whey protein 3 times a day.

    So if you guys can give me some hints on building my current 143lbs to a massive and cut 150 or 160, I would definitely appreciate it.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by pr3; 10-27-2001 at 11:54 PM.
    All work and no play makes me a dull boy

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  3. #2
    Gaglione Strength Chris Rodgers's Avatar
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    First step:

    Cut back to training 3-4 days a week. 5 days straight is very taxing, especially 4 straight days of upperbody work.


    Also, feel free to bump your calories up 300-500 per day and see what happens.
    Best Meet Lifts(Raw w/wraps):
    @165- 435 SQ 270 BE 560 DL.....1255 total
    @181- 535 SQ 300 BE 570 DL.....1400 total
    Best Meet Lifts(Multi-ply):
    @148- 575 SQ 315 BE 515 DL.....1400 total
    @165- 680 SQ 380 BE 540 DL.....1555 total
    @181- 700 SQ 375 BE 535 DL.....1605 total
    Best Gym Lifts(Raw w/wraps)
    545 SQ 305 BE 585 DL

  4. #3
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    There isn't a 'best' routine.

    You need to find what works for you.

    There are some general methods that you should consider:

    Train less often would be the first one I suggest.

    Make sure you are progressing.

    160 massive?

    Drinking whey 3x a day isn't going to be a determining factor in your success.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
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  5. #4
    Senior Member Accipiter's Avatar
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    this thread AGAIN?

  6. #5
    Wannabebig New Member
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    yo the best is called beyond failure, you need a partner & you can't be no @#$%^ I mean i've gained about 20lbs of muscle for real! It hurts like a son ova, some people say it's called burn out but no, it's more it hurts so much you will dread working out again, even a different muscle the next day. for more info hit me back.tuttut tuttut
    Positive Energy motivates, Potential Energy remains stagnant, Kinetic Energy is always moving, but NaturalNRG........ cannot be stopped.

  7. #6
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    It's one thing to stimulate a muscle to growth it's another to anihilate(sp) it.
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  8. #7
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    remember that there is no magic routine. There are basic guidelines that one should follow but there is even debate about those.
    bottom line, if you progress consistantly on wbb routine, then use it! Give some time and assuming you are eating enough you will add reps and or weight. Until that progression stops then i would continue. Also, there are many myths in training so dont believe everything you hear

  9. #8
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    There are basic tenets that all trainees should follow. Let me know if you would like to read them.

  10. #9
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    Originally posted by chris mason
    There are basic tenets that all trainees should follow. Let me know if you would like to read them.
    What are they?

  11. #10
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    All natural trainees:

    1) Train to failure for all post warmup sets
    2) Allow for full recovery between workouts for a specific bodypart, regardless of the timeframe (no 48 hour rule).
    3) The majority of exercises should be compound movements.
    4) Do not train for more than 2 days consecutively, and only for separate bodyparts on those consecutive days.
    5) Maintain good form, and train as heavy as possible within your ideal rep range.
    6) Limit working sets (post warmup sets) to a maximum of 5-6 for larger bodyparts and 3-4 for smaller ones.
    7) Get plenty of sleep (8 hours for most people, although it can vary amongst individuals).
    8) Determine your maintenance level for caloric consumption. Then, take that figure and add 2-300 cals to it. Consume this amount of food until your muscular gains slow, then bump another 2-300 cals. If you notice excessive fat buildup, reduce cals by 2-300 until this stops. Then, continue to train until stagnation, and add 2-300 calories. This will allow for as continuous of gains as possible with a minimum of fat buildup.
    9) Train like there is no tomorrow, maintain a positive attitude, know that you will get bigger and stronger with each session.
    10) Do not train when ill, only resume training when you are completely recovered from the illness.
    11) Take occasional unscheduled 1 week breaks. Do this infrequently, but when a plateau has been reached and seems unbreakable.
    12) Pick a "base" exercise for each bodypart and use that exercise for every session for that bodypart (i.e. bench for chest, squats for legs etc.). Use your 2nd exercise as a variable exercise to maintain a psychological edge to your training (you can switch this exercise around at will). The base exercise will allow for a meaningful marker of your progress.

  12. #11
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Hmmmm, maybe this list needs to be put somewhere so all newbies can read it?
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  13. #12
    Gaglione Strength Chris Rodgers's Avatar
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    Chris- good list, but some of it is bollox.
    Best Meet Lifts(Raw w/wraps):
    @165- 435 SQ 270 BE 560 DL.....1255 total
    @181- 535 SQ 300 BE 570 DL.....1400 total
    Best Meet Lifts(Multi-ply):
    @148- 575 SQ 315 BE 515 DL.....1400 total
    @165- 680 SQ 380 BE 540 DL.....1555 total
    @181- 700 SQ 375 BE 535 DL.....1605 total
    Best Gym Lifts(Raw w/wraps)
    545 SQ 305 BE 585 DL

  14. #13
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by LATMAN
    Chris- good list, but some of it is bollox.
    *** Which ones?
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  15. #14
    Gaglione Strength Chris Rodgers's Avatar
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    Number 1 is just wrong and some have holes- 2,4,6,11.

    Again, I think it is a very good guidline to follow for the most part, just not a must-do for natties.
    Best Meet Lifts(Raw w/wraps):
    @165- 435 SQ 270 BE 560 DL.....1255 total
    @181- 535 SQ 300 BE 570 DL.....1400 total
    Best Meet Lifts(Multi-ply):
    @148- 575 SQ 315 BE 515 DL.....1400 total
    @165- 680 SQ 380 BE 540 DL.....1555 total
    @181- 700 SQ 375 BE 535 DL.....1605 total
    Best Gym Lifts(Raw w/wraps)
    545 SQ 305 BE 585 DL

  16. #15
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by chris mason
    All natural trainees:

    1) Train to failure for all post warmup sets

    *** Not needed.
    Failure is not nessicarily needed to see progress.

    2) Allow for full recovery between workouts for a specific bodypart, regardless of the timeframe (no 48 hour rule).
    3) The majority of exercises should be compound movements.
    4) Do not train for more than 2 days consecutively, and only for separate bodyparts on those consecutive days.

    *** Why?

    5) Maintain good form, and train as heavy as possible within your ideal rep range.
    6) Limit working sets (post warmup sets) to a maximum of 5-6 for larger bodyparts and 3-4 for smaller ones.

    *** Actually a higher volume for newbies would result in some nice results.

    7) Get plenty of sleep (8 hours for most people, although it can vary amongst individuals).
    8) Determine your maintenance level for caloric consumption. Then, take that figure and add 2-300 cals to it. Consume this amount of food until your muscular gains slow, then bump another 2-300 cals. If you notice excessive fat buildup, reduce cals by 2-300 until this stops. Then, continue to train until stagnation, and add 2-300 calories. This will allow for as continuous of gains as possible with a minimum of fat buildup.
    9) Train like there is no tomorrow, maintain a positive attitude, know that you will get bigger and stronger with each session.
    10) Do not train when ill, only resume training when you are completely recovered from the illness.
    11) Take occasional unscheduled 1 week breaks. Do this infrequently, but when a plateau has been reached and seems unbreakable.

    *** This may help but there are lots of other things that can be looked at.

    12) Pick a "base" exercise for each bodypart and use that exercise for every session for that bodypart (i.e. bench for chest, squats for legs etc.). Use your 2nd exercise as a variable exercise to maintain a psychological edge to your training (you can switch this exercise around at will). The base exercise will allow for a meaningful marker of your progress.
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  17. #16
    Gaglione Strength Chris Rodgers's Avatar
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    Thanks for clarifying Maki Mak.
    Best Meet Lifts(Raw w/wraps):
    @165- 435 SQ 270 BE 560 DL.....1255 total
    @181- 535 SQ 300 BE 570 DL.....1400 total
    Best Meet Lifts(Multi-ply):
    @148- 575 SQ 315 BE 515 DL.....1400 total
    @165- 680 SQ 380 BE 540 DL.....1555 total
    @181- 700 SQ 375 BE 535 DL.....1605 total
    Best Gym Lifts(Raw w/wraps)
    545 SQ 305 BE 585 DL

  18. #17
    MACHINE
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    I disagree, I think Chris summed up pretty well what should be followed by someone wanting to maximize gains in the gym. Is it necessary? No. I progressed nicely 15-20 years old doing 20+ sets per body part. I progressed, yes, but probably not to my full potential, knowing what I know now. Progression isn't the only goal in weight training - maximizing progression is (or at least should be) the goal.
    "He's the best damn rollerskater that ever lived...probably in the whole town" - Chris Pontius

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  19. #18
    Banned Praetorian's Avatar
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    yeah, chirs is right. He pretty much summed it up.

  20. #19
    Hmmmm..... Spiderman's Avatar
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    The best routine is mine.

    "Success is never behind you, it is always, always in front of you."

  21. #20
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    From Chris's list:

    1) Failure - not strictly necessary but advised. the point is that if you know what "just short of failure" is for yourself and you CAN progress with EVERY workout, then you don't necessarily need failure but how many newbies can achieve this without failure?

    2) I agree 100% otherwise you risk overtraining.
    3) I agree.
    4) I agree. For me even 2 days in a row is too much. Listen to your body, if you've got no job and get 10 hours of sleep then maybe you can train three days in a row. If not then chances are your immune system will kick and scream.

    5) I agree
    6) Disagree, I think rep ranges are highly individual

    7) -11) basically agree

    12) I like this one in particular. The name of the game is progression and management begins with measurement. If you don't maintain some consistency in exercises, how can you measure progress.

    Overall a very good list to start with.

    My $0.02

    __________

    Here's the ultimate routine:

    Squats, Chinups, Dips - progress 5% with every workout.

    Good luck!

    (LOL I'm half kidding but half serious)
    Last edited by hemants; 10-31-2001 at 03:10 PM.

  22. #21
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by gino
    I disagree, I think Chris summed up pretty well what should be followed by someone wanting to maximize gains in the gym. Is it necessary? No. I progressed nicely 15-20 years old doing 20+ sets per body part. I progressed, yes, but probably not to my full potential, knowing what I know now. Progression isn't the only goal in weight training - maximizing progression is (or at least should be) the goal.

    *** Gino , how does one know they've maximized their progression?
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  23. #22
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Yes, progress can be made without training to failure. However, better progress can be made by training to failure and allowing for sufficient recovery.


    One may not know if they have maximized their progression Maki, but one can certainly tell if it took 10 years to develop the same size and strength levels that could have been achieved in 2 with proper training.


    The point that Maki is missing is that all of the tenets are intimately tied together. If one is training to failure, more that 6 sets to failure for a bodypart is not necessary, nor prudent, regardless of one's level of development. Sure, if one is not training to failure, especially a relatively undeveloped individual, then a greater number of sets may prove to be beneficial, but of course, that would be missing the whole point of training to failure.

    Why would one not want to train the same bodypart to failure 2 days in a row if trying to develop maximum size and strength? I think the answer is self evident.

    Latman thinks that number 2 has a hole in it??? So, you are saying that it is prudent to train a bodypart again before it has fully recovered? Or, are you saying that a muscle will begin to atrophy and lose strength if not trained every 48 hrs?

    Number 4 is prudent for the natural trainee because recovery does occur on a systemic basis to some extent. Not training for more than 2 days in a row will be an aide in systemic recovery.

    Taking unscheduled breaks, when one trains to failure, can be a very beneficial move. It can help to break training plateaus. Latman, please exlpain why this is not so in your opinion.

  24. #23
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    I'll post something on this tomorrow when I'm sober.

    No, on second thought---

    Just a question. Tell me why it is so important to go to failure. Use anecdotal evidence if you must, but I want to see solid reasoning behind it, including *gasp* scientific basis.
    Last edited by PowerManDL; 11-02-2001 at 12:28 AM.
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  25. #24
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    Scientific evidence showing failure is better? I'm not aware of any - of course, bodybuilding isn't really high on the list of subjects to tackle by folks with PhD's, is it?

    It does seem to make sence from a logical standpoint that for faster strength increases and size increases, training to failure would be a good thing. Of course, one needs to define 'failure'.

    Also, I think we miss some of the factors that come into play in these discussions... you hear top level PLers say they don't train to failure... I wouldn't train to failure, either, if I am trying to peak my performance on a particular day, like a PLer has to. With training to failure, you don't know when the progression on a lift will stop. No big deal for someone who is not a competitive PLer, as they can just move on to another movement. But no PLer would want to peak 2 weeks prior to his contest, then find the following week is the one he needs to take off to recover.

    IMO, if you want to get bigger/stronger faster, training to failure is the way to go. This is a different goal than maximizing your 1RM in 3 specific lifts.

    If you want to peak your performance in 3 specific lifts on a specific day, periodization and not training to falure is probably a better bet. The tradeoff - if may take you longer to reach the same level of strength and size (in general terms) than someone else. Your 1RM in those 3 lifts may be bigger, but your 10 rep squat max might not be, and your bent row might not be, etc, etc.

    Further yet, I think at a certain rep count (low, say under 5) training to failure may be counterproductive from a recovery standpoint. You certianly are not going to be able to train your 3RM for many weeks in a row. PLing places far more emphasis on technique and neurological response than what a BBer or recreational lifter needs to worry about.

    Also, don't the majority of PLers try to maintain their weight and get stronger?
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

  26. #25
    Cottage cheese addict LiftAgain's Avatar
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    Interesting thread.

    When you train for specific sport like powerlifting or weightlifting you also need to train technique so you can maximize your performance in the specific lifts. Also you need to be able to increase strength without increasing mass too much so you still can compete in the weight class you aim for or you'll lose the benefit from the strength gain. No point for a competitor to gain strength if you also at the same time gain mass and have to compete in a heavier class and therefore lose the advantage (or need to drop too much weight before a meet and lose strength).

    But if you train for absolute strength and don't need to worry about hypertrophy and weight gain, training to failure is probably the most efficient way. But when you train to failure you also need to rest more. But if you also need to train technique you can't take too many days off or your performance will suffer because of lack of skill to perform the lift. Especially in a sport like olympic weightlifting that needs very good technique.

    So if you need to train both technique and strength and also need to worry about not gaining too much weight, I believe periodizing is helpful to make systematic gains.

    That doesn't mean that training to failure is never used by PL'ers, especially in heavier classes who don't need to worry so much about strength loss when losing weight before a competition.

    So I believe there is a difference in training for relative strength and absolute strength.

    Just IMO of course.
    Last edited by LiftAgain; 11-02-2001 at 09:32 AM.

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