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Thread: Entire Army Unit Refuses Orders in Iraq

  1. #176
    Banned SalahG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shootermcgavin7
    Salah,
    In a free society, you cannot legislate morality (although God knows they sometimes try). In the US, for the most part, you can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't infringe on others' rights. "Morality" is drawn in large part from various religions, which is seperate from our law-making process in the US.
    Very true. But before, the USA kind of regulated itself. Had a lot more families in church, and more parents taking initiative to teach their kids good morals etc... Now it is way out of control.

  2. #177
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SalahG
    I've been all over the Middle east, and have yet to see anything worse than I've seen in the good ole' USofA. The scummiest, dirtiest place I've ever been was San Fran at 2AM, my god that was a ****hole. But is that the whole USA? No. Same with the middle east.
    This is the difference between us. I happen to think that San Fran at 2am on a weekend is one of the greatest places on earth.

    It's cute to proclaim morality when half of society is, by default, 2nd class citizens, and in many cases, simply enslaved.

    Basing any analysis of Arab lifestyle on Dubai is like saying Park Ave NYC is the average American lifestyle.

  3. #178
    Senior Member Manveet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SalahG
    That's not true. I see with my own eyes kids going back to their roots. Western society is pretty trashy in my opinion, and I'm glad more Muslim kids like myself are taking steps towards our ideals. My father was once proud to carry his US almighty passport with him from country to country, now that passport brings embarrassment, foriegners look at us like dirt. Because of that passport, we are automatically labeled as alcoholics, perverts, gay marriage supporters, and the list goes on. I plan on moving outside of this country after my football career is over because of this. Western society, is VERY ****ed up.
    I suggest you make yourself a time machine, and have yourself transported out of the 21st century
    "It is often said, mainly by the "no-contests", that although there is no positive evidence for the existence of God, nor is there evidence against his existence. So it is best to keep an open mind and be agnostic. At first sight that seems an unassailable position, at least in the weak sense of Pascal's wager. But on second thought it seems a cop-out, because the same could be said of Father Christmas and tooth fairies. There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?"

    Richard Dawkins


    "Out of all of the sects in the world, we notice an uncanny coincidence: the overwhelming majority just happen to choose the one that their parents belong to. Not the sect that has the best evidence in its favour, the best miracles, the best moral code, the best cathedral, the best stained glass, the best music: when it comes to choosing from the smorgasbord of available religions, their potential virtues seem to count for nothing, compared to the matter of heredity. This is an unmistakable fact; nobody could seriously deny it. Yet people with full knowledge of the arbitrary nature of this heredity, somehow manage to go on believing in their religion, often with such fanaticism that they are prepared to murder people who follow a different one."


    Richard Dawkins


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  4. #179
    Banned SalahG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manveet
    I suggest you make yourself a time machine, and have yourself transported out of the 21st century
    I wish I could, if the future is only going downhill, I'd rather stay on top of the mountain.

  5. #180
    Banned SalahG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash
    This is the difference between us. I happen to think that San Fran at 2am on a weekend is one of the greatest places on earth.

    It's cute to proclaim morality when half of society is, by default, 2nd class citizens, and in many cases, simply enslaved.

    Basing any analysis of Arab lifestyle on Dubai is like saying Park Ave NYC is the average American lifestyle.
    Yeah, but you see most people over there aren't living in what you'd call "third world" conditions. You see very few bums, stuff like that. Almost everyone is middle class, and everyone can afford to put food on the table. Families help each other over there, and everyone gets their food and shelter, that is where morality comes in. The family nucleaus in America has gone out of the crapper for a number of reasons.

    I don't know how you can think San Fran is a pleasant place at night dude. Prostitute's line the streets, constantly being badgered by bums for money, drug dealers offering me crack, pimps trying to sell there woman, gays trying to come on to me, and drug addicts foaming out of their ****ing mouth approaching my car, and sometimes yelling at people who weren't there. Very classless, and dirty.

  6. #181
    Wannabe a Beast BigNic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shootermcgavin7
    Salah,
    In a free society, you cannot legislate morality (although God knows they sometimes try). In the US, for the most part, you can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't infringe on others' rights. "Morality" is drawn in large part from various religions, which is seperate from our law-making process in the US.

    i was actually going to type that exact first line, except i put the "in a free society part last. " Im not gonna comment on us morals, but at least were a country that doesnt physically force morals on its citizens. In most cases anyway. I really hope it stays that way but sometimes i worry
    Beer helped slow down my metabolism.... -ozzyman

  7. #182
    Senior Member Spartacus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shootermcgavin7
    Your point wasn't about Palestine, but the article's was. Which, as I've already said, is an entirely different debate.
    did you not read the articles? the journal one looked at what lebanese students thought about america, and concluded they didn't think islan and the the West were fundamentally bound for conflict, they thought US policies were terrible. IF you were to read it, you would see they specifically refute huntington & Lewis' thesis.

    the second, from zogby is a broad poll of people accross the middle east - they conclude these people hate america specifically because of our foreign policy.

    The final report from pew is a general survey of opinion in many countries on many subjects. it shows bin laden is not fundamentally alien to the broad muslim opinion, even if most do not agree with his tactics.

    This is consistant with what al-quaeda itself says.

    you have only cited "authors who agree with you." i could list books that contradict those. but instead i used primary sources.

  8. #183
    Senior Member Spartacus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigNic
    i was actually going to type that exact first line, except i put the "in a free society part last. " Im not gonna comment on us morals, but at least were a country that doesnt physically force morals on its citizens. In most cases anyway. I really hope it stays that way but sometimes i worry
    yeah, this is importnat. noone is putting a gun to someone's head and making him marry another guy or buy nose candy. americans get to live by what tehy think is right, at least compared to muslim sharia-based nations.

  9. #184
    Senior Member shootermcgavin7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus
    did you not read the articles? the journal one looked at what lebanese students thought about america, and concluded they didn't think islan and the the West were fundamentally bound for conflict, they thought US policies were terrible. IF you were to read it, you would see they specifically refute huntington & Lewis' thesis.

    I have read it. And Huntington actually has a specific piece out that effectively refutes this theory. (Edit: I am 99% sure it's Huntington. It's an article that I don't own, although I've read it 2 or 3 times)

    Why did the West have conflict with Radical Islam before the creation of Israel?

    For that matter, before the creation of the US?


    Oh, and please list the books. I've probably read most of them. As I said before, no matter what I say I'm sure you will cling to the theory that the US is to blame for terrorism.
    Last edited by shootermcgavin7; 10-24-2004 at 08:58 PM.

  10. #185
    Banned The_Brick's Avatar
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    Just victims of the greed of the few, they say jump you say how high.

  11. #186
    Senior Member Spartacus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shootermcgavin7
    I have read it. And Huntington actually has a specific piece out that effectively refutes this theory. (Edit: I am 99% sure it's Huntington. It's an article that I don't own, although I've read it 2 or 3 times)
    Oh, and please list the books. I've probably read most of them.
    translation: "i'm sure people who agree with me would agree with me in the face of evidence, but i can't actually remember what argument they would use, despite my massive reading habits."

    i enjoy engaging in debate but just listing cites or authors =/= making arguments

    Why did the West have conflict with Radical Islam before the creation of Israel?

    For that matter, before the creation of the US?
    who gives two ****s about the cause of prior conflict, when the question at hand is what motives these people NOW? Even if wahibism began entirely as an anti-modern movement, thats not the primary reason for people to attack the west.
    As I said before, no matter what I say I'm sure you will cling to the theory that the US is to blame for terrorism.
    well, are you capable of laying aside your conceptulization of all history in terms of evil religion and beuracracy and considering that perhaps there might be contributory actions by both the middle east and westerners in the creation of terrorists? saying we contributed to the problem doesn't absolve usama of all blame or even equivocate actions.
    Last edited by Spartacus; 10-24-2004 at 09:59 PM.

  12. #187
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Back onto the topic of how poorly the Iraq conflict has been managed...

    Huge Cache of Explosives Vanished From Site in Iraq
    http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/25/in...st/25bomb.html

    "The Iraqi interim government has warned the United States and international nuclear inspectors that nearly 380 tons of powerful conventional explosives - used to demolish buildings, produce missile warheads and detonate nuclear weapons - are missing from one of Iraq's most sensitive former military installations.

    The huge facility, called Al Qaqaa, was supposed to be under American military control but is now a no-man's land, still picked over by looters as recently as Sunday. United Nations weapons inspectors had monitored the explosives for many years, but White House and Pentagon officials acknowledge that the explosives vanished after the American invasion last year."

    My commentary:
    If this isn't the final nail in the coffin for how completely incompetent the administration has been in Iraq, I don't know what could be. It also basically proves that Bush has been lying to us the entire time. We went in to secure WMDs? Yet we didn't secure the largest explosives depot in Iraq, that we knew about before the war, the contents of which could be used as the trigger for nuclear devices?

    The very same explosives used to blow up Pan Am 103 are now missing. It took 1 pound to take out an airplane. Now 380 tons are missing.

    We had enough troops? If we don't have enough troops to secure this site, we don't have enough troops, period. We were lectured over aluminum tubes that could be used for WMDs? Yet we let the specific machine tools that could be used for construction and assembly go missing, quite possibly to Iran.

    This mismanagement has been beyond incompetent, delving deep into the realm of criminal negligence, unconstitutional action, and impeachable offense. Luckily, in Nov. 2, we can kick these bums out. The Bush Administration has been the most incompetent in modern history, by a large measure.

  13. #188
    Senior Member shootermcgavin7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus
    i enjoy engaging in debate but just listing cites or authors =/= making arguments
    If you aren't going to post up sources, then don't get on me because I can't remember one title out of tons of sources that I gave you. I think we can both safely say that that is slightly hypocritical. If you ever wanted to read it, I gave you the author and it wouldn't be too hard to find.

    who gives two ****s about the cause of prior conflict, when the question at hand is what motives these people NOW? Even if wahibism began entirely as an anti-modern movement, thats not the primary reason for people to attack the west.
    And neither is "Palestine". My argument has been, and I've stated this, and obviously this is the sticking point that is going nowhere, that the reasons keep changing, but the underlying roots (and results) have been the same for years and years.

    well, are you capable of laying aside your conceptulization of all history in terms of evil religion and beuracracy and considering that perhaps there might be contributory actions by both the middle east and westerners in the creation of terrorists? saying we contributed to the problem doesn't absolve usama of all blame or even equivocate actions.

    I never said religion is evil. I, personally, am a religious person (and I know many out there aren't, that's there choice and I respect it).

    However, there's a difference between myself being a religious person, and myself being a religious person, telling you my way is the only right way, and I'm going to kill you to prove it. And THAT, at its very core, is where the problems start.

  14. #189
    Party of "No." Tryska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SalahG
    I don't know how you can think San Fran is a pleasant place at night dude. Prostitute's line the streets, constantly being badgered by bums for money, drug dealers offering me crack, pimps trying to sell there woman, gays trying to come on to me, and drug addicts foaming out of their ****ing mouth approaching my car, and sometimes yelling at people who weren't there. Very classless, and dirty.

    damn you sure must draw alot of attention. how do you ever make it down the street with all those people trying to stop you? odd they would all be hanging out on the same street.

    incidentally, those crazy people you see on the streets? you can thank reagan for that. he's the one that kicked many of the indigents crazies out of mental institutions and then closed them down.


    in any case, you go on talking aobut being a proud muslim youth and how everyone hates you for your passport. how do you feel about those muslim american citizens that are interred down in Guatanamo Bay? the ones with no access to lawyers, and no convictions etc? are you okay with that?
    Last edited by Tryska; 10-25-2004 at 07:21 AM.
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  15. #190
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tryska
    incidentally, those crazy people you see on the streets? you can thank reagan for that. he's the one that kicked many of the indigents crazies out of mental institutions and then closed them down.
    Yeah I know. He should have just had them executed like we all wanted.
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  16. #191
    Party of "No." Tryska's Avatar
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    *lmao* that ain't right. besides..regan was a pro-life president.

    you know what i learned this weekend?


    that George 41 was a major supporter of planned parenthood, birth control, and was pro-choice, until he got the veep spot on the Reagan ticket. then he went into his pro-choice closet, and was scared of getting outed.


    i also learned that Ralph Reed, dubya's campaing consultant, used to be the head of the Christian Coalition. that scares the bejesus out of me. this fundamentalist takeover is deeper entrenched than any of us really understand i think.
    Last edited by Tryska; 10-25-2004 at 07:30 AM.
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  17. #192
    Banned SalahG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tryska
    damn you sure must draw alot of attention. how do you ever make it down the street with all those people trying to stop you? odd they would all be hanging out on the same street.

    incidentally, those crazy people you see on the streets? you can thank reagan for that. he's the one that kicked many of the indigents crazies out of mental institutions and then closed them down.


    in any case, you go on talking aobut being a proud muslim youth and how everyone hates you for your passport. how do you feel about those muslim american citizens that are interred down in Guatanamo Bay? the ones with no access to lawyers, and no convictions etc? are you okay with that?
    It wasn't one street Tryska, I was there for about 4 hours with some friends and left. Not all of those experiences were directed towards me, I got badgered by a bum for money, and some crazy crackhead approached my car foaming out the mouth.

    I don't know anything about Reagan kicking crazys out of mental institutions, but I think that drugs were the cause of most of the insaneness I saw there. I'm not a Republican so I don't nessacarilly support Reagan, or Bush Sr., or Bush Jr..

    I don't know how me being a proud Muslim youth, being ashamed of my passport has much to do with Guantanamo Bay, but I think anyone that is there is up for a fair trial, and have the rights to a Lawyer. So, if they are being mistreated, that I do have a problem with that, but I still don't know what you're getting at.

  18. #193
    Party of "No." Tryska's Avatar
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    they are being mistreated. you need to do your research.

    check out this site, actually....it will help you find your way around what's going on with Muslim Detainees, from a Muslim perspective.


    www.cageprisoners.com
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  19. #194
    Banned SalahG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tryska
    they are being mistreated. you need to do your research.

    check out this site, actually....it will help you find your way around what's going on with Muslim Detainees, from a Muslim perspective.


    www.cageprisoners.com
    Lady, come on now. This thread wasn't even talking about Guantanamo, and now you just all of the sudden throw this in to the ring. I'll read the site, but the subject I was talking about before was morality, not about guantanamo bay. Weird lady is Tryska.

  20. #195
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    I hate fundamentalist anythings.
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  21. #196
    Party of "No." Tryska's Avatar
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    you're the one that brought up your religion and your religious sensibilities, when discussing how immoral us Americans are. I'm just saying take your righteous indignation and focus it on something that is much more important.


    i find that idea of being upset at american morality to be disgusting in the face of hypocrisy on those Muslims that are most indignant. You know damn well the seedy underbelly that gets filled by the rich when they make their pleasure trips to america or anywhere else. And lest you think i'm singling out muslims, hypocrisy on the behalf og the morally "righteous" is equal opportunity. I'm sure Jimmy Swaggart can attest to that.
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  22. #197
    Party of "No." Tryska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PowerManDL
    I hate fundamentalist anythings.
    yes.
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  23. #198
    Journalist galileo's Avatar
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    I <3 opinions.

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