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Thread: why (not) high gi post workout

  1. #1
    bone crusher
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    why (not) high gi post workout

    there seems to be some new debate here about intake of high gi carbs such as malto or dextrose postworkout

    why is this the case, where did this idea come from (scientificly)?

    It would seem that the idea originated from studies that were later exploited by muscletech et. al. that in the fist hour or so after a strenuous anaerobic workout that ATP and glycogen synthesis (muscle glycogen and ATP- the fuel for lifting) are at their most efficient levels. THis certainly makes sense as their depletion during a strenulous workout would cause the body to want to refill them. This is not to say that glycogen/atp would not be replenished at other times or by other carbs. However, to take advantage of this narrow window of time, high GI would be required.
    Now consider that most people utilize a higher carb low fat diet. Their daily energy intake is constantly regulated by high insulin levels (regardles of GI). Now trying to stimulate insulin spikes on top of your already higher insulin levels is more difficult (thus leading to the need for higher amounts of high gi of carbs). There arises the issue of insulin resistance (similar reasoning to the repeated use of gear and the need for higher levels) when following such a strategy. Keeping in mind that insulin stimulates fat formation, i would conclude that taking high postworkout gi is not very useful. In fact you get very little bang for your fat forming buck.
    However, if you follow a lower carb diet, you have much lower insulin levels- your receptors are more open to the effects of insulin. Thus taking in carbs at this point will give a stronger response for your buck. You needn't necessarily use malto, or something as high in gi, or as many carbs to get the similar effect desired above. I have no direct evidence, but i would think it reasonable that you could get similar effects (high glycogen/atp synthesis) later that 1 hour after workout. I would think the above mentioned studies (those exploited by muscletech et al.) were probably performed on high carb dieters. Also, i think that lower carb diets are much more suited for the prevention of type ii diabetes - (insulin resistance).
    THe whole point here is that i think high gi carb post workout is not essential, but depends on your overall goals, diet, and strategy. I know in the past missabs had contended that insulin spikes were not necessary, and sometimes undesired. I hope she'll weigh in on this

    *personal rant* I think that the idea of high gi postworkout is something pushed by supp companies to sell their high sugar/malto creatine and weight gainer potions. When they say *10 lbs of lean mass* that could be (and is) water weight. Once you've added this (which comes from all glycogen reserves being filled-which also holds a tremendous amt of water) you're in prime fat storage conditions.

    oh well just wanted to and
    glad i got that off my chest
    Last edited by the doc; 11-11-2001 at 09:43 AM.

  2. #2
    Bespoke Super Mod
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    Excellent post Doc
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  3. #3
    BIG BOI
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    Re: why (not) high gi post workout

    Originally posted by the doc
    Also, i think that lower carb diets are much more suited for the prevention of type ii diabetes - (insulin resistance).
    thank you doc

  4. #4
    Geordie The_Chicken_Daddy's Avatar
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    Good shiznit man.
    "Geordie/'d3c:di/n. & adj. Brit colloq. n. 1 a native of Tyneside. 2 the dialect spoken on Tyneside. adj. of or relating to Tyneside, its people, or its dialect. [the name George + -IE]

  5. #5
    Senior Member Wizard's Avatar
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    However, if you follow a lower carb diet, you have much lower insulin levels- your receptors are more open to the effects of insulin. Thus taking in carbs at this point will give a stronger response for your buck."

    Entire the post is very good,but I liked mostly this info.I totally agree
    Low carb with random refeeds is perfect.Even med carbs but of a lower gi,may create a similar effect.
    Anyway,bump!
    Last edited by Wizard; 11-11-2001 at 09:52 AM.

  6. #6
    bone crusher
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    bumpity bump


  7. #7
    Party of "No." Tryska's Avatar
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    wow..how did i miss this one?

    you did good, Doc, and i wholeheartedly agree!
    A little learning is a dangerous thing...

    Live Dangerously! Learn a Little!


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  8. #8
    bone crusher
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    bump for you all

  9. #9
    Senior Member Wizard's Avatar
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    Reinier,this is the thread about the high gi carbs that I mentioned yesterday.

    Thanks doc.

  10. #10
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    i just found this thread.

    doc, what type of diet would you suggest for putting on the most possible muscle and least amount of fat during a bulking phase using your theory?

    after reading dr atkins book i also am wary of going back to a 400g of carb a day diet when i begin buking again. i put on a ton of fat while doing that.
    my other favorite forum! Check it out!

    http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/

  11. #11
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Very good post Doc.

    Also I whole heartedly agree with what Wizard said.
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    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  12. #12
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Re: why (not) high gi post workout

    Originally posted by the doc
    there seems to be some new debate here about intake of high gi carbs such as malto or dextrose postworkout

    why is this the case, where did this idea come from (scientificly)?

    It would seem that the idea originated from studies that were later exploited by muscletech et. al. that in the fist hour or so after a strenuous anaerobic workout that ATP and glycogen synthesis (muscle glycogen and ATP- the fuel for lifting) are at their most efficient levels. THis certainly makes sense as their depletion during a strenulous workout would cause the body to want to refill them. This is not to say that glycogen/atp would not be replenished at other times or by other carbs. However, to take advantage of this narrow window of time, high GI would be required.
    Now consider that most people utilize a higher carb low fat diet. Their daily energy intake is constantly regulated by high insulin levels (regardles of GI). Now trying to stimulate insulin spikes on top of your already higher insulin levels is more difficult (thus leading to the need for higher amounts of high gi of carbs). There arises the issue of insulin resistance (similar reasoning to the repeated use of gear and the need for higher levels) when following such a strategy. Keeping in mind that insulin stimulates fat formation, i would conclude that taking high postworkout gi is not very useful. In fact you get very little bang for your fat forming buck.
    However, if you follow a lower carb diet, you have much lower insulin levels- your receptors are more open to the effects of insulin. Thus taking in carbs at this point will give a stronger response for your buck. You needn't necessarily use malto, or something as high in gi, or as many carbs to get the similar effect desired above. I have no direct evidence, but i would think it reasonable that you could get similar effects (high glycogen/atp synthesis) later that 1 hour after workout. I would think the above mentioned studies (those exploited by muscletech et al.) were probably performed on high carb dieters. Also, i think that lower carb diets are much more suited for the prevention of type ii diabetes - (insulin resistance).
    THe whole point here is that i think high gi carb post workout is not essential, but depends on your overall goals, diet, and strategy. I know in the past missabs had contended that insulin spikes were not necessary, and sometimes undesired. I hope she'll weigh in on this

    *personal rant* I think that the idea of high gi postworkout is something pushed by supp companies to sell their high sugar/malto creatine and weight gainer potions. When they say *10 lbs of lean mass* that could be (and is) water weight. Once you've added this (which comes from all glycogen reserves being filled-which also holds a tremendous amt of water) you're in prime fat storage conditions.

    oh well just wanted to and
    glad i got that off my chest
    *** I would tend to use a insulin spike according to my workout. What I mean is, most people take in the same post workout shake every training session. Regardless if they've worked their biceps or if they've just finished a leg workout. Post workout shakes, as Doc said, should be manipulated according to the intensity of the particular workout. No wonder people gain so much fat ( including myself) when bulking. Playing around and changing the fat to protein ratios and adding carbs in at certain times, will help aleviate the amount of fat that is gained overall.

    This isn't a fact just something that I've thought about and will be using when I bulk next time.

    Any thoughts?
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  13. #13
    bone crusher
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    maki this is true
    in my most recent bulking attemt i experiemented with this. I think i have hit it too high on the carbs side. I think i put on some good lbm but to much fat as well.

    It would seem to me that an insulin spike is not as desired as stable moderate insulin levels. Every spike is followed by a trough (in which anabolism is stopped and even reversed).

  14. #14
    3:16
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    doing a high volume leg session requires a lot more nutrients than a low volume arm session.

    i have never seen a advert to consider that.

    when showing the advert they probably put some one through a 20 set leg routine and run after. so glycogen store really drop.

    i have not gone for a insulin spike in the last 8 months.

    i normally drink milk after training. while cutting i have been eating a can of tuna.
    my exprience - joined gym 10 years ago, 6 1/2 years hard weight training exprience.

  15. #15
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Originally posted by the doc

    It would seem to me that an insulin spike is not as desired as stable moderate insulin levels. Every spike is followed by a trough (in which anabolism is stopped and even reversed).
    *** Could you explain further how anabolism is halted when a insulin spike ocurs?

    Doc said,
    Thus taking in carbs at this point will give a stronger response for your buck. You needn't necessarily use malto, or something as high in gi, or as many carbs to get the similar effect desired above. I have no direct evidence, but i would think it reasonable that you could get similar effects (high glycogen/atp synthesis) later that 1 hour after workout.

    *** If I can dig up the reference I will add that it also depends on the quanity of the carb used. Inother words a large amount of low gylcemic carbs will do just as good a job as a small amount of high glycemic carbs.

    I would think the above mentioned studies (those exploited by muscletech et al.) were probably performed on high carb dieters. Also, i think that lower carb diets are much more suited for the prevention of type ii diabetes - (insulin resistance).
    THe whole point here is that i think high gi carb post workout is not essential, but depends on your overall goals, diet, and strategy. I know in the past missabs had contended that insulin spikes were not necessary, and sometimes undesired. I hope she'll weigh in on this

    *** Insulin spikes may not be nessecary as I mentioned in my last post. It would really depend on the intensityused. If I'm correct I believe that the chief glucose transporter (Glut-4) is responsible for rising to the cell surface. In return it will grab whatever glucose that is in the blood. Now if the exercise is intense enough obviously blood glucose and liver gylcogen will be severely depleted and muscle glycogen will be drawn upon. Now it is wise to replenish these stores. How much is hard to say.
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  16. #16
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    It's IMPOSSIBLE for me to gain fat. Would too many carbs still be a bad thing...like say 500g a day? Should I try to stick to more low GI carbs? Cause if I lower my carb intake, I'll just have to increase fat to make up for the calories....Right now I'd say on the average, I take in 200g protein, 500g carbs, 300g fat a day, that's about 5000 cals...should I cut down some carbs? How many should be high/low GI?

  17. #17
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Hehe, ok so I read into the study a little bit too much.

    Here it is anyways.

    Burke LM. Nutrition for post-exercise recovery. Aust J Sci Med Sport Mar;29(1):3-10, 1997

    You can look it up. Yes, I'm a lazy banana.
    Maki Fit Blog

    At Large: Optimize Your Body | Dynamic Conditioning |
    My articles on Wannabebig

    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  18. #18
    bone crusher
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    maki what i meant was that a spike is usually foolowed by a deep trough (in insulin levels) during which time glucagon is maxed out to restabilized blood sugar levels. This glucagon will shuttle nutrients out of the cells ( a catabolic process)

    So in other words i think that if one seeks to spike post workout more complex carbs ( of moderate GI) would need to be consumed to stabilize blood sugar but then this may result in a high rate of fat synthesis

    And yes you are correct that a large meal of low GI carbs will cause increases in insulin as well
    What GI measures is blood glucose increase as a function of time. SO low gi causes insulin to rise, but in a much longer time frame

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