The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
Latest Article

The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

It’s no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
More Recent Articles
Contrast Training for Size
By: Lee Boyce
An Interview with Marianne Kane of Girls Gone Strong
By: Jordan Syatt
What Supplements Should I be Taking? By: Jay Wainwright
Bench Like a Girl By: Julia Ladewski
Some Thoughts on Building a Big Pull By: Christopher Mason

Facebook Join Facebook Group       Twitter Follow on Twitter       rss Subscribe via RSS
Results 1 to 9 of 9

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Posts
    10,215

    Alternative Lifting (Crossfit, kettlebells, strongman, etc.)

    I've been reading a lot about alternatives to conventional bodybuilding programs, both in methodology (Crossfit) and equipment (kettlebells).

    Personally, I've been playing with stuff like sandbags for fun, mainly in place of conventional cardio. I like some of the notions of crossfit, such as the use of gymnastics, and strongmen styles, noteably the interesting equipment.

    Here are the basic principles of crossfit, from its creator:
    "CrossFit is in large part derived from several simple observations garnered through hanging out with athletes for thirty years and willingness, if not eagerness, to experiment coupled with a total disregard for conventional wisdom. Let me share some of the more formative of these observations:
    1. Gymnasts learn new sports faster than other athletes.
    2. Olympic lifters can apply more useful power to more activities than other athletes.
    3. Powerlifters are stronger than other athletes.
    4. Sprinters can match the cardiovascular performance of endurance athletes – even at extended efforts.
    5. Endurance athletes are woefully lacking in total physical capacity.
    6. With high carb diets you either get fat or weak.
    7. Bodybuilders can’t punch, jump, run, or throw like athletes can.
    8. Segmenting training efforts delivers a segmented capacity.
    9. Optimizing physical capacity requires training at unsustainable intensities.
    10. The world’s most successful athletes and coaches rely on exercise science the way deer hunters rely on the accordion."

    Agree? Disagree? Nothing there is particularly new or surprising to me, at least. But here's the really polemical quote, on gaining muscle:
    "Here is a hierarchy of training for mass from greater to lesser efficacy:
    1. Bodybuilding on steroids
    2. CrossFitting on steroids
    3. CrossFitting without steroids
    4. Bodybuilding without steroids
    The bodybuilding model is designed around, requires, steroids for significant hypertrophy.
    The neuroendocrine response of bodybuilding protocols is so blunted that without "exogenous hormonal therapy" little happens.
    The CrossFit protocol is designed to elicit a substantial neuroendocrine whollop and hence packs an anabolic punch that puts on impressive amounts of muscle though that is not our concern. Strength is.
    Natural bodybuilders (the natural ones that are not on steroids) never approach the mass that our ahtletes do. They don't come close.
    Those athletes who train for function end up with better form than those who value form over function. This is one of the beautiful ironies of training."

    What do you think?

    Quotes from the CrossFit FAQ.

    The journal / I live here.

    If I were to start from scratch as a young 13 year old again, I would do every press, squat, and perhaps deadlifts, for my entire career with chains. -- Dan John

  2.    Support Wannabebig and use AtLarge Nutrition Supplements!


  3. #2
    Trying to learn on the fly
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    937
    i sounds like it would make sense. if you are doing different things to stimulate growth, your body can't adapt so you should make better gains, or at least that is my take. why not give it a try and see if it compares to the gains from your normal routine?

  4. #3
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Posts
    8,668
    Do some reading about what Louie Simmons, et al, say about GPP, and follow their thinking back to the source. There is an excellent article on Elite FTS about why the Russians always have such good athletes - I'll try to find it and post the link.

    Here are the basic principles of crossfit, from its creator:
    "CrossFit is in large part derived from several simple observations garnered through hanging out with athletes for thirty years and willingness, if not eagerness, to experiment coupled with a total disregard for conventional wisdom. Let me share some of the more formative of these observations:

    1. Gymnasts learn new sports faster than other athletes.
    ** GPP. This is why kids should start out with running, jumping, and tumbling to become good athletes first, then start developing sport specific skills (we do this backwards, generally, in the US.)
    2. Olympic lifters can apply more useful power to more activities than other athletes.
    ** Maybe, but I wouldn't say this is an absolute truth.
    3. Powerlifters are stronger than other athletes.
    ** I would hope so.
    4. Sprinters can match the cardiovascular performance of endurance athletes – even at extended efforts.
    ** I'd like to see a little more on this.
    5. Endurance athletes are woefully lacking in total physical capacity.
    ** Wouldn't suprise me.
    6. With high carb diets you either get fat or weak.
    ** You have to define 'high carb'.
    7. Bodybuilders can’t punch, jump, run, or throw like athletes can.
    ** Bodybuilders can't do most things as well as 'athletes' can, but they aren't training to be able to do those things.
    8. Segmenting training efforts delivers a segmented capacity.
    ** Sounds almost Mentzeresque, in that it's a logical argument, but might not really apply to physical activity.
    9. Optimizing physical capacity requires training at unsustainable intensities.
    ** And the supercompensation that follows.
    10. The world’s most successful athletes and coaches rely on exercise science the way deer hunters rely on the accordion."
    ** I disagree.
    "Here is a hierarchy of training for mass from greater to lesser efficacy:
    1. Bodybuilding on steroids
    2. CrossFitting on steroids
    3. CrossFitting without steroids
    4. Bodybuilding without steroids
    The bodybuilding model is designed around, requires, steroids for significant hypertrophy.
    The neuroendocrine response of bodybuilding protocols is so blunted that without "exogenous hormonal therapy" little happens.
    The CrossFit protocol is designed to elicit a substantial neuroendocrine whollop and hence packs an anabolic punch that puts on impressive amounts of muscle though that is not our concern. Strength is.
    Natural bodybuilders (the natural ones that are not on steroids) never approach the mass that our ahtletes do. They don't come close.
    Those athletes who train for function end up with better form than those who value form over function. This is one of the beautiful ironies of training
    This sounds like they are trying to sell you something, although there is truth in there, specifically the last sentence.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

  5. #4
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Posts
    10,215
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Stagg
    This sounds like they are trying to sell you something, although there is truth in there, specifically the last sentence.
    Well, of course they are, but only about as much as WBB is. A perfectly acceptable level of commercialism, and CrossFit seems to demonstrate the same level of free information and support that WBB does. Indeed, there is so much free info out there that I wonder why anyone would spend much money on fitness information.

    The journal / I live here.

    If I were to start from scratch as a young 13 year old again, I would do every press, squat, and perhaps deadlifts, for my entire career with chains. -- Dan John

  6. #5
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Posts
    8,668
    Here's the article (a paper, really) I was talking about.

    Not completely related, but a good read.

    http://www.elitefts.com/documents/TomMyslinski.pdf
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

  7. #6
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Posts
    10,215
    From the article, regarding the superiority of eastern bloc athletes: "The difference was a superior methodology of training." Um, and megadoses of performance enhancing drugs with no regard for the health of the athlete.

    "Through systematic identification and recruitment, priority was given to the selection of those young athletes thought most likely to benefit from intensive sports training and to produce championship results in top-class competition."

    Agreed, but this isn't useful for adult weight trainers; it's evidence for directing public health policy. However, that "[t]hey believed that if children were encouraged to develop a variety of skills, they would quite possibly experience success in several sporting activities," is something that I completely agree with, and what I always recommend for kids.

    Now, the question is, what advantages are there for adults in participating in GPP and SPP? As the commie kiddies progressed into sport specialization, GPP gave way to SPP. However, unless one is trying to prepare for a particular sport, wouldn't continued GPP as an adult be a superior method for improving health and fitness?

    I believe so! I also think that weightlifting, as typically practiced, is a form of SPP. So is conventional cardio. Neither are alone suitable for fitness and health, and together, I still think they fall short. Of course, I don't think that I'm ever going to convince the general public that they need to start gymnastics, sandbags, and combat training.

    Anyway, I still need to read the article more thoroughly.

    The journal / I live here.

    If I were to start from scratch as a young 13 year old again, I would do every press, squat, and perhaps deadlifts, for my entire career with chains. -- Dan John

  8. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Posts
    0
    7. Bodybuilders can’t punch, jump, run, or throw like athletes can
    maybe not bodybuilders, but look at the physiques of some 100m sprinters, like good old linford christie, or boxers like mike tyson or carl thompson. For me they have some incredibly muscular physiques!!!!

  9. #8
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Posts
    10,215
    Quote Originally Posted by 2massive
    maybe not bodybuilders, but look at the physiques of some 100m sprinters, like good old linford christie, or boxers like mike tyson or carl thompson. For me they have some incredibly muscular physiques!!!!
    I think that's the point. They are definately not bodybuilders, yet they have physiques that most bodybuilders would die for. Additionally, they're more fit, stronger, faster, etc.

    The journal / I live here.

    If I were to start from scratch as a young 13 year old again, I would do every press, squat, and perhaps deadlifts, for my entire career with chains. -- Dan John

  10. #9
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Posts
    8,668
    I'm not sure I was clear - I think the Cross fit stuff is interesting, and certianly worth a close look. I don't think, from a bodybuilding or PLing perspective it's the ONLY work I would do, but as far as extra workouts, or improving GPP, I think it would be beneficial.

    Perhaps a PLer might do the crossfit workout on an off day, or pick a more non-taxing workout on an off day, given some of their workouts would certainly be taxing enough to interfere with recovery.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

Similar Threads

  1. Olympic Lifting Article
    By FortifiedIron in forum Powerlifting and Strength Training
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 07-05-2003, 04:49 PM
  2. Proofread my article on weightlifting?
    By Jane in forum General Chat
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 12-22-2001, 12:50 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •