The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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Thread: Veg Diet

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  1. #1
    Wannabebig Member
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    I don't know whether this has been submitted before
    but.... I'm a vegetarian following the Wannabebig
    routine and am looking to tweak my diet. Its about as
    bad as it gets: No breakfast, light lunch and a heavy dinner. I'm willing and dedicated to make a change, believe me. I am currently 23 6'2" 172. Looking to make gains up to 185 while cutting BF. Any suggestions.

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  3. #2
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    Yep.

    Eat meat.

    Which version of vegetarian are you?

  4. #3
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    I eat milk and eggs. No fish.

  5. #4
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    That gives us something to work with.

    I'm assuming you know 5-6 balanced meals a day is the way to go? Each meal should be about the same size, with similar macronutrients.

    I'd start out around 2500-2600 cals. At least 170g of protein, the majority of that coming from milk, eggs, or whey protein. The balance split about evenly carbs and fat. So, assuming 6 meals, you are shooting for about 30g of protein and 420 cals or so.

    You are going to get sick of eggs, milk, and whey very quickly.

    That should work out to be maintenance calories.

    Decide if you want to cut bf or gain mass, and focus on one of the two.

    You are going to get sick of eggs, milk, and whey very quickly.

    Why are you a vegetarian?

  6. #5
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    First I'll start with fitness question than to the last question. Keeping those proportions strictly (fats, carbs, etc.) is cutting or building mass strictly a matter of adjusting caloric intake? Just curious.

    As to the second matter of why I am a vegetarian, I'll be brief and I'll try not to get on a soap box. Do not read below if you don't care.

    It must those I saw around me. My close friends drinking themselves into a stupor, overeating, smoking until there teeth began to resemble cornbread, and gernerally indulging in patterns that were selfdestructive. And I raged with the best of 'em. Believe me, it was a given that I was going to make it through to dawn.
    Then I stopped. It was awful realizing you've become a cliche with no flesh or meaning to your life. I mean the rest has to stop sometime, and it was right then.
    And I started getting other ideas in my head about how life should be. It was a f*cking joke to waste your life in a culture pressing you to be fat and dead with whoppers and television. I wanted to be different and celebrate something better, an alternative to the trend. That was forsaking meat. Simplifying my life, and helping me to kick back against the bastards. Same with weightlifting. My revolution.

  7. #6
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    Keeping those proportions strictly (fats, carbs, etc.) is cutting or building mass strictly a matter of adjusting caloric intake? Just curious.

    ** Mostly a matter of adjusting calories, although the macro percentages can make a difference. What I suggest is a basic guideline and minimum protein requirement. Adjustments from there are up to the individual - You'll figure out what works best for you.

    I woudn't have asked if I didn't care.

    The reason I asked was to determine if you are a militant 'meat is murder' vegetarian, a 'meat is bad for you' vegetarian, or a religious vegetarian.

    I'm still not sure.

    If you are a militant 'meat is murder' vegetarian, or a religious vegetarian, I just stop our conversation here, as to not start an argument about it.

    Someone who thinks it is healthy, however, I will continue the discussion in hopes of enableing them to reach their goals.

    Being a vegetarian and getting bigger and stronger don't go together so well. You have reasonable goals, and I think you can acheive them without modifying your diet other than what I suggested above.

  8. #7
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    Probably the best descriptor would be meat is bad for you. The way its produced, way its handled, effects on the environment, high fat content in most red meat etc. etc.

  9. #8
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    I see.

    The majority of the information about meat that is negative is supported, funded, and preached by militant vegetarians - people who believe that killing cute animals and eating them is bad.

    The majority of the information about meat that is positive is funded, supported, and preached by the meat industry.

    Most of the non-biased info I've seen shows no ill effects.

    Handling is no different than any other foodstuffs.

    Effects on the environment are negligible at best. Certainly the pesticides used on veggies are just as harmful.

    Fat isn't evil. As a matter of fact, it's good for you, in moderation.

    In any event, you'll reach your goals faster (and surpass them if you wish) by adding varied animal protein to your diet. But, IMO, you can get there without them.

  10. #9
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    Sorry, I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents here.

    First, vegetarian and getting bigger and stronger do go well. Have you heard of Andreas Cahling or Luiz Freitas?

    On the ethical and environmental issues of the meat industry, well, they are beyond the scope of this board but, just know that 1 out of every 7 cows dies, and is ground up and fed to cows and other animals. Makes you wonder.

    Most of the environmental concerns surrounding meat are more to do with factory farming than meat by itself. Runoff from factory farms here in Ontario have resulted in sickness and death due from E.Coli contamination of water. Does that mean everyone should stop eating meat? No, but factory farming is something that needs to be addressed even if you ignore the ethical considerations.

    And I agree, there are militants on both sides of the issue.

  11. #10
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    Sorry, I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents here.

    **'K

    First, vegetarian and getting bigger and stronger do go well. Have you heard of Andreas Cahling or Luiz Freitas?

    **Cahling, yes. Freitas, no. Cahling was not a veg when he was competing, as I recall. No matter, that's 2 out of how many? Lots of smokers live for a long time, doesn't mean it's a good idea. How much better would they have been had they eaten meat?

    On the ethical and environmental issues of the meat industry, well, they are beyond the scope of this board but, just know that 1 out of every 7 cows dies, and is ground up and fed to cows and other animals. Makes you wonder.

    ** I don't buy it. Where does this statistic come from?

    Most of the environmental concerns surrounding meat are more to do with factory farming than meat by itself. Runoff from factory farms here in Ontario have resulted in sickness and death due from E.Coli contamination of water. Does that mean everyone should stop eating meat? No, but factory farming is something that needs to be addressed even if you ignore the ethical considerations.

    ** We don't know if that would happen without the factory farms, although I agree that they probably do have a negative impact.

  12. #11
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    "*** ...How much better would they have been had they eaten meat? "

    Once your body absorbs protein, it doesn't care where it got it from - meat or not. If you're point is that eating meat will give your high protein diet more variety then that is a different point.

    "just know that 1 out of every 7 cows dies, and is ground up and fed to cows and other animals. Makes you wonder.

    ** I don't buy it. Where does this statistic come from? "

    Here you go, this is a quote from former cattle rancher Howard Lyman:

    "...Remember today, the United States, 14% of all cows by volume are ground up, turned into feed, and fed back to other animals. "

    I stand corrected, it's not 1 in 7, it's more like 1 in 7.14.

    Incidentally, the Texas cattlemen's association tried to take Howard Lyman to court but the Supreme court ruled that since the information he provided was FACT, that there was no libel or slander.

    It's amazing what you learn when you sort through the propoganda (which, unfortunately, starts in grade school due to meat board lobbying)

    "***..** We don't know if that would happen without the factory farms, although I agree that they probably do have a negative impact"

    Again, the scientific experts who studied the catastrophe came to that conclusion, not me. If you wish question their conclusion then you should read their report.

    Again, I am not advocating that everyone should stop eating meat but you and I can both agree that America's obsession with McDonald's cheeseburgers is bad for animals, health, and the environment.

  13. #12
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    Once your body absorbs protein, it doesn't care where it got it from - meat or not. If you're point is that eating meat will give your high protein diet more variety then that is a different point.

    ** True, however it is far easier to get all of the necessary amino acids by eating meat.

    Here you go, this is a quote from former cattle rancher Howard Lyman:

    "...Remember today, the United States, 14% of all cows by volume are ground up, turned into feed, and fed back to other animals. "

    I stand corrected, it's not 1 in 7, it's more like 1 in 7.14.

    ** Get your damn facts straight.

    Incidentally, the Texas cattlemen's association tried to take Howard Lyman to court but the Supreme court ruled that since the information he provided was FACT, that there was no libel or slander.

    It's amazing what you learn when you sort through the propoganda (which, unfortunately, starts in grade school due to meat board lobbying)


    ** One rancher saying that doens't make it true (I'm not saying it isn't, I truely don't know)... but I still think it is a little questionable. The propaganda comes from both sides of the issue, now, though. Used to be primarily from the meat industry.

    Again, I am not advocating that everyone should stop eating meat but you and I can both agree that America's obsession with McDonald's cheeseburgers is bad for animals, health, and the environment.

    ** You bet. I can't argue with that.

  14. #13
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    "** True, however it is far easier to get all of the necessary amino acids by eating meat. "

    It is virtually impossible not to get all the essential amino acids on a vegetarian diet. Unless you eat 100% rice, or 100% potatoes. On second thought, judging by the number of guys here who eat nothing but Tuna, I should perhaps reconsider :-)

    "** Get your damn facts straight. "

    How do you insert a happy face, like this :-)?

    "** One rancher saying that doens't make it true (I'm not saying it isn't, I truely don't know)... but I still think it is a little questionable. The propaganda comes from both sides of the issue, now, though. Used to be primarily from the meat industry."

    It's good to be skeptical. Remember, the supreme court did verify the facts before ruling. If nothing else, the fact that there is no law in the U.S. against feeding cows to cows should be a cause for concern. That and the fact that only 1 out of every quarter million cows is inspected. As with most issues that don't directly affect corporate profits, this issue will be dealt with reactively, not proactively.

    "** You bet. I can't argue with that"

    Least we agree on something :-) Peace.

  15. #14
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    Abeforeman,

    Getting back to the original question.

    If you have a blender then you can do what i do in the morning:

    1 cup milk
    1 banana
    1 apple or pear or peach or plum
    2 tablespoons ground flax seeds
    1/4 cup strawberries or blueberries
    3 scoops whey protein powder
    wash everything well but don't peel (except the banana of course :0)

    This will give you 67g protein, 53 g of carbs, and 10 grams of healthy fat for about 570 kcal and will tie you over till you get to work.

    Also, I highly recommend:

    1) egg beaters (liquid egg product without the cholesterol)
    2) yves veggie products (100% protein dogs, sandwich slices, burgers)
    3) find a place that sells fat free soy milk, the isoflavanoids are cancer fighting and will give you an afternoon protein boost (it's an acquired taste but I like it more than milk now) I drink 1 litre which I sip in a small cup all afternoon at my desk after lunch.

    From what I have read here and other sites, .8g of protein per pound of body weight or 1 g per pound of lean body mass is what you should aim for. Beyond that you will probably not need it (although erring slightly on the high side doesn't hurt to be sure).

  16. #15
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    Excellent post. Good ideas.

    I also forgot to mention cheese and nuts. Good ways to get protein and in the case of nuts, some 'good' fats.

    A happy face is a colon and a close paren with no space



    :-) without the -

    I disagree RE: the complete AA profile. As I recall, Chris brought this up before, that one has to combine certain grains and beans to get all the AAs in the right proportions if you don't eat flesh. The other issue is the amount of carbs required to get enough protein. For me to get my 225-300g of protein, I'd have to eat a lot more cals than I usually do.

    (The Supreme court verified the facts before they ruled on the election, too.)

    I think we agree on more than one thing.

    Essentially, my stance on this issue comes down to this:

    It is more effective to eat a variety of proteins. (That goes for tuna, as well)

    Animal proteins are superior to non-animal proteins in most cases

    Not eating meat does not make you healthier, and in many cases leads to nutrient deficiencies.

    There is no moral or ethical reason to stop eating meat.

    When it comes down to it, it is the individual's choice. I only get really militant about my stance when some vege-nut tries to debate that vegetarians are healthier, or when a vege-nut tries to debate right and wrong. That hasn't happened (Abe didn't fit into the vege-nut category, seems to me he's made a perfectly logical choice for his own reasons, and isn't making a point of arguing about it, but instead is trying to work within his own parameters; and hemants, likewise, is simply providing an alternate veiwpoint and information.)

    Normally, these discussions deteriorate very quickly - usually due to the moral/ethical argument.

  17. #16
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    "I disagree RE: the complete AA profile. As I recall, Chris brought this up before, that one has to combine certain grains and beans to get all the AAs in the right proportions if you don't eat flesh. The other issue is the amount of carbs required to get enough protein. For me to get my 225-300g of protein, I'd have to eat a lot more cals than I usually do."

    There are 8 essential amino acids that our body cannot synthesize. Here they are along with the daily requirements for a 70kg adult in mg:

    Tryptophan 210
    Lysine 840
    Methionine 700
    Phenylalaine 1120
    Threonine 560
    Valine 980
    Leucine 1120
    IsoLeucine 840

    for the purposes of study, I looked at the amino acids in rice and milk.

    1 cup rice:

    Tryptophan 52
    Lysine 160
    Methionine 104
    Phenylalaine 236
    Threonine 158
    Valine 270
    Leucine 366
    IsoLeucine 192

    1 cup milk:

    Tryptophan 118
    Lysine 662
    Methionine 211
    Phenylalaine 404
    Threonine 377
    Valine 559
    Leucine 818
    IsoLeucine 505


    If all you ate was 8 cups of rice in a day (2000 kcal) you WOULD get all the essential amino acids you need.

    If all you had was 3 cups of milk a day, you would get all the essential amino acids you need.

    If you combined milk and rice, you'd have more essential amino acids than you knew what to do with.

    Thus, the concept of combining foods for essential amino acids is a complete myth which, unfortunately, is propogated by some people with the letters MD behind their name.

    Incidentally, requirements are from the National Academy of Sciences, and the amounts are from the USDA nutrient database. It is possible that these organizations have been taken over by militant vegetarians but I doubt it

    I could go on about this but I'll simply direct you to this website:

    http://www.fatfree.com/FAQ/protein-myths

    "It is more effective to eat a variety of proteins. (That goes for tuna, as well) "

    This may be true, but only for your tastebuds

    "Animal proteins are superior to non-animal proteins in most cases "

    If you are talking about biological value then whey protein, egg whites, and milk are the best in that order. Red meat is around the same as tofu with vegetables at the bottom of the scale. That is why when counting protein as a bodybuilder, you should only really count whey, egg, milk, soy and meat. The other stuff does add up though.

    "Not eating meat does not make you healthier, and in many cases leads to nutrient deficiencies. "

    A healthy diet is a healthy diet with or without meat. The average sedentary American eats far too much meat and far too few fresh fruits, vegetables, and grains. That is why the Journal of the American Medical Association states that "a vegetarian diet would eliminate 97% of coronary occulsions". In the case of bodybuilders, however, most of us analyze our diets to death anyway and don't eat a lot of fat (meat or otherwise). By the way, there hasn't been a single documented case of disease due to protein deficiency in the United States. I'm not sure what you mean by 'in many cases leads to nutrient deficiencies"

    "There is no moral or ethical reason to stop eating meat. "

    Morals and ethics are a very personal thing. Since you seem interested and since you are the moderator, I will give you some ammunition that will help you debate with vegetarians:

    Our lives are filled with choices between necessary violence (living in cities built on demolished wildlife, wearing leather, eating eggs/milk/meat) and unnecessary violence (wearing fur, hunting for recreation, eating your neighbour because you don't like him). Where everyone draws the line is a tradeoff between what they deem is necessary or convenient vs what they deem as unnecessary. Certainly, if someone went around cutting the legs off of squirrels and watching them suffer you would question them on a moral or ethical basis. But perhaps not.

    It is impossible to be completely violence free if you live in society. Thus when you encounter a militant vegetarian, remember that they are simply drawing the line in a different place. There is always someone taking more steps towards non-violence (whom we should appreciate as long as they are not 'violent' in how they preach it to you) and there is always someone not taking things as far as you do (whom you should not judge because you wouldn't want the people doing more to judge you).

    Hope this helps it has been informative, hopefully for both of us.

  18. #17
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    I' only briefly skimmed that website, but I caught some things that don't look right at all.

    Manufacure AAs out of glucose? I don't think so... I have to check on that.

    I also noticed the very typical 'too much protein is bad for your kidneys', which as we all know, has never been demonstrated in humans with normal, healthy kidney function.

    Thos two things make me question the rest of the info.

    Hopefully I'll have time to look into the information further.

  19. #18
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    "Manufacure AAs out of glucose? I don't think so... I have to check on that. "

    Seems fishy to me too. Not sure it's relevant. The only thing I pulled from that website was the reference to the National Academy of Sciences essential amino acids requirements. I'll try to go directly to the academy and get the info direct to rule out any misrepresentation.


    "I also noticed the very typical 'too much protein is bad for your kidneys', which as we all know, has never been demonstrated in humans with normal, healthy kidney function. "

    How can you demonstrate kidney failure in humans with normal, healthy kidney function? On another thread I posted information on the link between excess protein consumption and kidney failure, which as most of us don't all know, HAS been demonstrated.

    Furthermore, studies have shown that meat protein taxes the kidneys more than milk protein and that whey protein did not tax the kidneys at all.

  20. #19
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    OK.

    I think this will be my last post on this subject.

    I missed the study you are referencing.

    AFAIK, no study, ever, has shown a link between high protein intake and kidney damage in otherwise healthy adults.

    All of the studies are either animal studies (my favorite was rats fed their bodywieght in protein - that would equate to me eating over 100,000 grams of protein in a day), or studies performed on humans who already have kidney problems.

    I'd like to see the studies you are mentioning.

    Now - I do not have any formal nutrition training, I'm just an average dude with a little common sence. Watch how much I can pick some of the information on that website (which is a vegetarian website) apart.

    The quoted material is all from the page in your previous post. My comments are prefaced by "**"

    "What affects these requirements? Are they always the same? Definitly not. Our protein requirements can change dramatically when we are injured or sick. Now these are the minimum requirements for the amino acids themselves, and proteins in foods contain variable amounts of these amino acids. So requirements, expressed in terms of a protein requirement not an amino acid requirement, have to take into consideration things like variable quantities of amino acids, and variable amino acid requirements. "

    ** Yes. And this statement essentially says that these minimum requirements are almost meaningless - especially for someone who routinely requires more protein due to weight training.

    "The protein requirement can also be affected by the amount of carbohydrate in the diet. Nonessential amino acids can be made from glucose, for example. Sometimes a significant amount is made."

    ** I need to check on this, but mistakes such as this really hurt the credibility of the author.

    "Adequate carbohydrate supplies reduces the need for the liver to synthesize glucose from amino acids. The liver will make sure the blood sugar is at a minimum level, and it will break down proteins to supply glucose if the glycogen reserves aren't kept at an adequate level. Brain tissue and red blood cells use 140 to 150 grams of glucose over the period of a day for example. These two tissues require glucose and the liver will make sure they get it, either from food or from converting internal protein to sugar. Long duration exercise can also lead to the burning of BCAAs. One of the effects of carbohydrates, then, is to "spare" protein."

    ** And??

    "So what's the daily protein requirement? Well, the average theoretical losses amount to about 0.34 g of protein per kg body weight per day. Clearly a recommendation to replace this loss has to have an adequate safety margin. With 2 standard deviations added to this value, it comes to 0.45 g/kg per day of "ideal" protein. Adding safety margins for digestibility and protein quality, the requirement is thus in the region of 0.75g/kg. "

    ** This is NOT for an athlete.

    ** In the Chart comparying AA intake of veges and non veges, note how much more of each aa is present. For you and I, that's a good thing.

    "It is true that animal proteins tend to have more essential amino acids per gram of protein, in general, than plant protein. But so what?"

    ** So what?? So animal proteins are superior, that's what. That means you need LESS grams of protein to get the same amino acids if you eat meat!! That's less calories! Less stress on the kidneys, right?!?!

    "We get too much protein in our diets anyway. A 12 oz T-bone steak supplies a whopping 70 grams of protein. Pity our poor kidneys. It's worthwhile to note that excessive amounts of the sulphur containing amino-acids (methionine and cysteine) have having adverse health effects. "

    ** Study? Too much for whom?

    "Generally only animal proteins contain large quantities of this amino acid. Many studies indict excessive protein intake by linking chronic diseases to excess protein in the diet. There is also a limit to the amount of protein we asimilate at any one time. This limit is around 25 grams. Excess protein is broken down and stored as fat. So are animal proteins at an advantage? Maybe not. What do we get from a 12 oz T-Bone? Fat and probably sick."

    ** This is beyond wrong. First, cite one of these studies. Second, this limit to the amount of protein you can assimilate is a load of crap. Third, excess protein above maintenance caloric intake is stored as fat... otherwise, it is used to rebuild tissue (build muscle) or converted to glucose.

    "What we need to do is to replenish our amino acid pool, and the amino acids do not, repeat, do not have to come from the same protein. Not even from the same meal. Soy protein can supply the lysine at lunch, wheat protein can supply the methionine at dinner."

    ** Unless, in the case of a weight trainer, your protein needs are significantly higher than that of the average person.

    "The half-life of amino acids in this pool vary, but the life of the essential amino acids is at least 4 to 6 hours after digestion."

    ** This statement refutes the limit on assimilation, doesn't it?

    "So our digestive system will not allow much protein to slip through the body undigested."

    ** I thought only 25g could be assimilated?

    "And it doesn't matter a great deal what the source of the protein is. What does it matter if the digestibility of wheat is 91% and that of eggs is 97% since the amount of protein we eat is in excess of our minimum requirements anyway?"

    ** It matters indeed. This minimum requirement argument is really problematic.

    "Diets high in protein stress the kidneys, because the kidneys have to get rid of the protein breakdown by-products, which can be very toxic if left to accumulate."

    ** Never proven. What toxic byproducts?

    "The protein requirements of humans can be readily met by a vegetarian diet with no particular effort required to combine proteins or to carefully select foods for each particular meal."

    ** Yep, if you define 'requirements' as the amount to keep you alive.

    "Plant proteins may be less digestible because of intrinsic differences in the nature of the protein and the presence of other factors such as fibre, which may reduce protein digestibility by as much as 10%. Nevertheless, dietary studies show the adequacy of plant foods, as sole sources of protein (see Combining Proteins below), as does the experience of healthy vegans of all ages."

    ** Adequate? Sure. Do you want to be adequate?

    "Protein combining may reduce the amount of protein required to keep the body in positive protein balance (6),"

    ** This sentence sites a study...

    "but several human studies have indicated that this is certainly not always the case."

    ** So, what are these studies?

    "For example, over a 60-day period seven human subjects were fed diets in which protein was derived solely either from beans, corn and refined wheat; beans, rice and refined wheat; or a combination of the plant foods with the addition of cow's milk (8). All subjects remained in positive nitrogen balance (a measure of the adequacy of dietary protein), and there were no significant differences in nitrogen balance between the subjects eating only plant foods and those whose diet was supplemented with milk. "

    **OK, here is an outstanding example of a seriously flawed study. First, if n<30, especially with humans (a P of several billion), nothing in the study is statistically significant. The study is essentially meaningless. A positive nitrogen balance just means they are getting enough protein, but we don't know some other very important things, like the difference in caloric levels.

    "Another study looked at the nutritive value of a plant-based diet in which wheat provided 76% of the protein (9). The aim was to determine whether this regime could be improved by adding other sources of plant protein - such as pinto beans, rice and peanut butter. The diets were entirely vegan, containing only 46g of protein, and were fed to 12 young men over a 60 day period, during which they continued their normal daily activities. The researchers found that all subjects remained in nitrogen balance, and that replacement of 20% of the wheat protein with beans, rice or peanut butter did not result in significant changes in the levels of essential amino acids in the bloodstream."

    ** Again, n<30. All this study shows is that varying protein sources didn't change the AA in the blood. If these folks stayed in positive Nitrogen balance at 46g of protein, they are not comparable to you or I.

    "Even more startling perhaps were the findings of a 59-day investigation with six male subjects who consumed diets in which virtually the sole source of protein was rice (10). At two protein levels (36g and 48g per day) the diets comprised rice as the sol source of protein, or regimes where 15 and 30% of the rice protein was replaced with chicken. The partial replacement of rice with chicken protein did not significantly affect the nitrogen balance of the volunteers (in contrast to earlier experiments with rats which showed that a rice diet did not sustain normal growth). In this human study, even on the low-protein diet rice as the sole source provided between 2 and 4.5 times the WHO-recommended amounts of all essential amino acids, except lysine - of which it supplied 1.5 times the suggested level. On the higher protein diet, rice alone provided between two and six times the essential amino acid levels suggested by the WHO, and all subjects were in positive nitrogen balance."

    ** n<30. Same comments with protein intake.

    "The 1988 position paper of the American Dietetic Association (12) emphasized that, because amino acids obtained from food can combine with amino acids made in the body it is not necessary to combine protein foods at each meal. Adequate amounts of amino acids will be obtained if a varied vegan diet - containing unrefined grains, legumes, seeds, nuts and vegetables - is eaten on a daily basis."

    ** OK, I'll concede there is no requirment to mix foods at each meal if various foods are consumed. How many calories do you end up eating to get 225g of protein via grains, legumes, seeds, nuts, and vegatables?

    "These and other similar experiments show clearly that diets based solely on plant sources of protein can be quite adequate and supply the recommended amounts of all essential amino acids for adults, even when a single plant food, such as rice, is virtually the sole source of protein. The American Dietetic Association emphasizes that protein combining at each meal is unnecessary, as long as a range of protein rich foods is eaten during the day."

    ** there's that 'adequate' again. I think this is a responsible paragraph. Again, certainly vegetarians can be healthy, and can get enough protein to survive... but none of this applys to lifters.

    "Thus, if a potato weighing 100 grams contains 76 calories and 2.1 grams of protein, we say that it contains 2.1*4 = 8.4 calories as protein, or about 11% calories as protein. According to the National Research Council, an adult male requires 2700 calories and 56 grams of protein per day. The 56 grams of protein represent 224 calories, or about 8.3% of calories as protein. For the adult female, the figure is about the same : 2000 calories and 44 grams of protein, or about 8.8% of calories as protein.

    ** Do you see the problem? Do these ratios apply to you? For ME to get my 225g of protein, I need to eat 107 potatoes a day. That's 8132 calories. Where's my steak?

    "Another way to become protein deficient is to get almost all of your calories from alcohol and/or sugar. Sugar contains no protein ! Hard liquor contains virtually no protein (beer contains very small amounts.) So if you are an alcoholic sugar junkie, you may be in danger of protein deficiency. Another possible source of deficiency is that infants may be fed foods which they cannot digest."

    ** But wait.. The other author said we can make AAs out of glucose?

    "Because of the sufficiency, or overabundance, of plant protein, animal products (milk, cheese, and eggs as well as meat, fish, and poultry) are completely unnecessary for adequate protein nutrition. Breast milk, incidentally, which has provided human infants with adequate protein for hundreds of thousands of years, provides 6% of calories as protein - far less than that of whole cow's milk, which contains 22% of calories as protein."

    ** Typical partial information. How many calories does a baby eat in a day, per pound? This has NOTHING to do with adult nutrition.

    "Not only is plant protein sufficient, it is often SUPERIOR to animal protein."

    ** Source?

    "So for preventing calcium loss and the possibility of osteoporosis, plant protein is superior to animal protein."

    ** I see. Of course, this is not an issue if adequate calcium is consumed (Milk?)

    ** To sum it up, do I think you can survive as a vegetarian? Of course. Do I think you can be healthy? Sure, why not. Do I think a vegetarian lifter can reach his potential? Nope.

    Most of the vegetarian argument is based on saying essentially that non-animal protein sources are adequate, or OK, even though they are not as good, complete, whatever, as animal sources. I think that's a lame argument.

  21. #20
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    Paul,

    "I'd like to see the studies you are mentioning. "

    Most of the info I have on the connection between excess protein consumption are from discussions from my brother in law who is a Urologist. From what I know excess protein means what you do not utilize. Thus, as a lifter, the meaning of excess is much different than it is for the average sedentary American who according to the FDA needs only about 50g per day.

    Nevertheless, it is off topic but it has been discussed here if you want more info. I believe Big Worm can speak more to the toxicity of protein products more than me

    http://wannabebig.com/forums/showthr...p?threadid=616


    "***...Watch how much I can pick some of the information on that website "

    Forget the website. I only provided the link so you could see the essential amino acid requirements according to the National Academy of Sciences.

    If you don't accept those requirements for a bodybuilder, have you determined what the essential amino acid requirements are for a bodybuilder? Have you ensured that your diet is providing you with enough? I somehow doubt it. If you show me what you think a bodybuilders requirements are I can guarantee you that any normal vegetarian diet with enough protein that includes milk products will have enough of the essential amino acids. This is simply a myth. I will demonstrate it if necessary.

    "Do I think a vegetarian lifter can reach his potential? Nope. "

    Again, you're just a common dude with common sense. I don't understand where this belief comes from.

    Is it the amino acid argument? I would welcome some evidence.

    Is it the biological value argument? In terms of biological value, the most superior form of protein is whey, followed by egg white, followed by milk, followed by fish and foul, followed by tofu and red meat followed by vegetables, nuts etc.

    Is it just something you've always believed that no one ever challenged? Or is it just that the challengers have always been militants with lame arguments.

    I know you are not convinced and you do have strong beliefs and I welcome some evidence to support those.

    BTW, I do think it would be difficult (but not impossible) for a vegan (ie. no milk products or eggs) to reach their genetic potential in a tasty fashion

  22. #21
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    Have a great weekend all. Not sure when I'll get to post this weekend so I thought I would include the following info to clear up any amino acid myths once and for all.

    Essential aa..................... mg per 10g of protein
    .........................................Chicken Milk Tuna Soy

    Tryptophan ......................117 134 112 138
    Lysine .............................850 752 919 661
    Methionine.......................277 240 296 140
    Phenylaline......................397 459 391 570
    Threonine........................422 428 439 389
    Valine..............................496 635 516 508
    Leucine.............................750 930 814 842
    IsoLeucine.........................528 574 461 528

    Paul if you want to verify any of the info you can go to

    http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/cgi-bin/nut_search.pl

    If you're like me you will not notice any vast differences in the content per 10 g of essential amino acids.

    What I would conclude from this is that any diet that is balanced in macronutrients with sufficient protein (~1g per lb of bodyweight) will have enough essential amino acids EVEN for a bodybuilder. I would welcome FACTS to the contrary.

    Of course, if Paul requires 225g of protein then he probably weighs 250lbs (to my 180lb) and I should just drop the subject and consider myself lucky
    Last edited by hemants; 02-23-2001 at 03:31 PM.

  23. #22
    Wannabebig New Member
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    1. The linkages between excess protein and kidney failure are not entirely clear. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

    2. There are moral and ethical arguments for not eating meat but it's very personal (I eat meat but I can see how someone would want not to)

    3. The need for protein combining is a red herring as far as my knowledge goes. Any diet with enough protein will more than likely be rich essential amino acids.

    4. Most animal proteins are superior to plant proteins but whey, egg white, and milk are animal proteins so hemants and Paul are both correct.

    5. Thanks to both for the information now get off the web and go work out!

  24. #23
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    1. The linkages between excess protein and kidney failure are not entirely clear. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

    ** My point exactly.

    2. There are moral and ethical arguments for not eating meat but it's very personal (I eat meat but I can see how someone would want not to)

    ** Very true... unfortunately, much like religion, this leats to militant behavior.

    3. The need for protein combining is a red herring as far as my knowledge goes. Any diet with enough protein will more than likely be rich essential amino acids.

    ** I concede that. The rub is getting enough protein

    4. Most animal proteins are superior to plant proteins but whey, egg white, and milk are animal proteins so hemants and Paul are both correct.

    ** True, that.

    5. Thanks to both for the information now get off the web and go work out!

    ** I did. Trained back on Friday evening. Freaking outstanding workout. Broke 4 PRs, matched 1 and I'm on a TKD. Legs tonight. Taking the vomit bucket.

    Hemans - I think you and I agree on more than it seems.

    "Thus, as a lifter, the meaning of excess is much different than it is for the average sedentary American who according to the FDA needs only about 50g per day. "

    Your Urologist Bro-in-law would be a good source of information. However, he has to use the information available to him, and that information points to excess protein (undefined) leading to kidney problems. Since 'excess protein' isn't well defined, the only other info we have to go on is the RDA, which we all know doesn't apply to athletes. AFAIK, no one has determined what 'excess' protein is. Is it .75g/pound bw? 2g per pound? 12g per pound?

    Based on the info out there, I've never seen anything showing 2g/pound being dangerous to healthy adults. Would 50g per pound be? I'm not going to try it to find out. Based on my basic understanding of physiology, we don't have anything to worry about.

    "If you don't accept those requirements for a bodybuilder, have you determined what the essential amino acid requirements are for a bodybuilder? "

    Dude, if I had, I'd be selling it. I don't think anyone has. I think we've got a guideline, but it comes more from anectotal evidence than empirical evidence... mostly because this type of research isn't high on anyones' list. (It is very difficult to do, and applys to a limited population)

    "Have you ensured that your diet is providing you with enough? I somehow doubt it."

    I try to. I try to include a variety of protein sources, including whey, casien, egg, soy, beef, chicken, fish... I figure that should cover all the bases. I wish there was a number set somewhere in stone that gave us the 'perfect' aa breakdown to build muscle mass, and we could eat the correct foods to get it.

    "If you show me what you think a bodybuilders requirements are I can guarantee you that any normal vegetarian diet with enough protein that includes milk products will have enough of the essential amino acids. This is simply a myth. I will demonstrate it if necessary. "

    I think you are correct to a certain extent. The problem I see is the high amount of calories required to get the protein, but I think it can be done - I'm thinking more now in terms of efficency and in terms of variation (which, while I can't show any substantive proof, would at least logically seem to be a better idea than not.) Essentially, I think it would be harder for someone who uses milk and veg. sources to make progress than someone who eats a wider variety - given the same caloric intake and macro breakdown. (I don't think anyone has empiricly studied anything like this.)

    "Or is it just that the challengers have always been militants with lame arguments."

    There aren't many valid arguments (on either side) because there isn't much evidence. I do think, however, that logic and basic physiology support eating animal protein. But, yes, most of the challenges are from people who think it is WRONG to eat meat, and therefore lose logic. Much like someone who is a Catholic talking to somone who is a Jew. They both believe the other to be wrong about certain things, and there isn't much 'scientific' evidence to back either of them up.

    "Of course, if Paul requires 225g of protein then he probably weighs 250lbs (to my 180lb) and I should just drop the subject and consider myself lucky"

    I was 220 when I started dieting. I'm 211 now (very dehydrated and not holding much glycogen). Based on my caloric intake (about 2550 this week - 35% pro, 60% fat, 5% carbs) , I need about 225g of pro a day.

    Goal is 200+ at 8%, although at my current pace, I'll end up around 190, 195 at that bf level (I just switched to keto, so hopefully I can change that.)

  25. #24
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    DoctorBig, excellent points.

    Paul,

    RE: 1. I will speak to my brother in law again and post on a new thread regarding protein and kidney trouble.

    2. Ethical stuff. Probably doesn't belong on this forum. (Besides, it's not likely that vegetarians are going to get much sympathy here; at the same time, Paul, perhaps it's not really fair to tell vegetarians who come here that they should eat meat)

    3. Protein combining is a red-herring. We agree

    4. Animal vs vegetable proteins and macro breakdown.

    There are plenty of soy and whey based foods that are 100% protein. Similarly, there are lean meats that are 100% protein. Thus, you would be able to get 225g of protein on your 35/5/60 diet without meat. It probably wouldn't be too tasty though, I will concede that

    5. I haven't been able to work out as I've had a cold but I'm getting psyched. Currently 185lbs 16% bf. Lot of hard work ahead of me to get to 190lbs, 11%bf.

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