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Thread: Ahhhh, a bit of vindication...

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  1. #1
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Ahhhh, a bit of vindication...

    Was thumbing through the latest (January) issue of Musclemag International at the store today, and what did I find? An article on Sergio Oliva. It was an interview. Found some very interesting stuff in there...

    A little bit of history first. Sergio was a 3 time Mr. Olympia. He is the only man to defeat Arnold in the Olympia, and he probably should have beaten him twice. He is ~5'10" and weighed 245 in contest shape at his best (1972). Of course contest shape then wasn't quite what it is now, but he was incredible. Check out these pics:

    http://www.darkwoods.com/bodybuilder...ze/oliva09.jpg

    http://www.darkwoods.com/bodybuilder...ze/oliva05.jpg

    the above pic is from 1972---his best

    Well, you get the idea, he was one of the biggest, best shaped, most amazing bodybuilders ever.

    Now, the interesting part. Sergio was invited to Arthur Jones' Florida compound in the early 70s. I had read about this in some of Jones' and Ellington Darden's writings. Of course, I took whatever I read there concerning Sergio with a bit of a grain of salt, because of the obvious bias. I had subsequently read that Sergio's training was this incredibly high volume affair. This sort of thing was often used to discredit Jones and his training techniques. Basically the idea gets presented that if Jones' training was so effective, Sergio would have stayed on with it etc.

    Well, surprise, surprise! I had never read an account of Sergio's training under Arthur from Sergio himself. In the previously mentioned article, I finally had the chance. So, here are a few excerpts:


    "Oh man! Arthur Jones believes in high-intensity training, and just beats the crap out of you in only 20 or 25 minutes. There's no resting between exercises- you just keep going. It's the worst pain. I took a while to adjust to it plus the new machines,
    but that was when I was my biggest, when I trained with Arthur [emphasis mine]. "

    "In '72 I had been training with Arthur Jones. I was so big and freaky that when I saw myself in the mirror backstage, I said, 'I'm ******* huge!' Everyone knew I was the winner, even Arnold.'"

    A little food for thought. For all of the people who run around saying that Arthur only espoused his beliefs to get people through his gyms faster etc. This is a recent interview. Sergio had absolutely no reason to lie about his experiences. It's not like he is under contract, or has any financial reason to do so. Sometimes the truth speaks volumes... Again, I find it ohhh so interesting that literally everything Arthur expressed in the late 60s and early 70s is now being written about as "new findings" etc. The truth just takes a while to get out, especially when money is on the line. It is also funny how many of the writers don't give Jones credit when they write about his ideas, or they say "I don't agree with Arthur Jones for the most part, but he was right about....", as if they have to somehow disassociate themselves from him even as they agree with him.
    Last edited by chris mason; 11-22-2001 at 08:29 AM.

  2. #2
    Hmmmm..... Spiderman's Avatar
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    Am I the only one who has no CLUE who Arthur Jones is?

    "Success is never behind you, it is always, always in front of you."

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    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    hahahaha-

    Artie was/is the inventor of the Nautilus accomodating resistance machines, and also one of the co-founders of HIT-style training, along with Darden and Mentzer.

    There's a lot of myth and drama surrounding him, and for the sake of not starting Flame War VIII, Chris vs. Power Take 12, I won't go into it.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

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    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Actually he was the founder. Darden and Mentzer both met him and got their ideas from him. Darden became a protege, basically. Mentzer took his ideas and called it Heavy Duty. Jones poplarized low volume taken to failure training in the late 60s and early 70s. What I have always respected about him was that he told the truth, as he saw it, and he forged his own place in bodybuidling.

  6. #6
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Well, that's admirable even if I don't agree with a lot of what he says.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

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    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    Well Powerman, what are your opinions of Sergio's statements? You needn't agree about the techniques. I think some may be missing my point. My point with this thread is that the people who wish to discredit Arthur and his techniques always like to present the picture that the people that trained under him/were used to promote his ideas, either didn't really use his techniques, or they did not make good progress while using them. For example, Arnold and Franco even trained at his Deland Florida facilities during the Nautilus heyday. Now, Arnold was Weider's golden boy and obviously could not bite the hand that fed him (at that time-early 70s), so Arnold went on to say that the training techniques, while they may work for some, did not work for him and made him weaker and smaller. I have seen photos from that time and it is obvious from the photos that Arnold and Franco were both not juicing at the time, so it would surprise me greatly if they got bigger and stronger than when then were juicing. If Arnold had told the whole truth, that would have been a very bad thing for Weider, and Arnold was smart enough to ally himself with the right person. Sergio, on the other hand, has absolutely no reason to lie. He gets very little exposure in Weider's magazines, and generates essentially no money due to Weider. Sergio is famous for using extremely high volume training, yet he himself says he was his largest ever when training under Jones' tutelage, using 1-2 sets to failure (and beyond). I have never seen a bodybuilder, who had any sort of a lasting relationship with Arthur, say a bad thing about him after the fact. In other words, now that any association with him can generate them no benefit they all have good things to say about him. In fact, they all say he was/is a genius. Mike and Ray Mentzer, Boyer Coe, Sergio Oliva, Casey Viator, and others. To me, that says something.

    One more thing, all of the above listed bodybuilding associates of Jones' also happen to be some of the strongest bodybuilders ever. Coincidence?
    Last edited by chris mason; 11-22-2001 at 11:24 AM.

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    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    I'm not going to get into all the politics and drama of whether or not Jones was right, whether his methods work, etc etc.

    Whether or not HIT works isn't what I question. It does work, and hell, even I use some of Jones' methods.

    I'm no Weider fan either. I think that bodybuilding and iron sports in general would be much better off without his monopoly. Then again, he's done a lot to popularize it. It could be argued that without Weider, the bodybuilding craze we have now wouldn't exist.

    I have no doubt that many people, including elite BB's, have used Jones' training and done great things with it. Does that mean that you should train that way and that way alone? Certainly not. Its an effective tool for training, so use it when its needed.

    And hey, if Artie can get someone in that great of shape, more power to him.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  9. #9
    Administrator chris mason's Avatar
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    No, no, I want to know your opinions on how the bodybuilding "establishment" gives credit to those who agree with them, and tries to discredit those who go against them, and the irony of the Jones situation and how most of the magazines and writers, even today, will print something that agrees with Arthurs' viewpoints, yet they don't want to seem like they are really agreeing with him. It still isn't fashionable to say that one agrees with his viewpoints...

  10. #10
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Oh.

    Well screw that. I hate any kind of BS like that.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

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    Senior Member Accipiter's Avatar
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    jigga wha?

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    jigga who .............oh wait thats degeneration of a thread. Oops.
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    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
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