The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Its no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    Senior Member neartaigh's Avatar
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    Flu shot, arm hurts.

    I just got a flu shot this morning. The arm that was jabbed is just ACHING. Any suggestions on how to make this go away quicker?
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  3. #2
    Ash "Money" Hegde Y2A's Avatar
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    Same thing happened to me when I got one last year. It goes away by the next day if I remember correctly, no big deal.
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  4. #3
    el imposible ectx's Avatar
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    agreed. It's part of the inflammatory response to the antigen you just received. You're bound to get local inflammation. Take some advil/motrin and possibly ice it.
    ecDoesIt

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  5. #4
    AM MMA Fighter crazedwombat's Avatar
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    lol suck it up
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  6. #5
    Panic Prone waynis's Avatar
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    it's your bodies reaction saying I don't want it. Flu shots are bs.
    Never Giving In.

  7. #6
    Beefcake razorcut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waynis
    Flu shots are bs.
    So is the flu. I'm not a big believer in the germ theory.
    I know you're half-crazy, but I wish you'd go all the way.

    "Razorcut, as usual, is 100% correct." --- ectx

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  8. #7
    AM MMA Fighter crazedwombat's Avatar
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  9. #8
    Senior Member accuFLEX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razorbrain
    So is the flu. I'm not a big believer in the germ theory.
    What do you mean? I have the flu right now.....

  10. #9
    el imposible ectx's Avatar
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    It's called sarcasm.

    Razorbrain is replying to Waynis who probably has no clue on how vaccines work. Sorry, buddy, you don't. You want your body to react to it. It means it's working. You're developing an immune response to a foreign compound...only in vaccine form this foreign compound won't really make you sick. It will, however, prime your body to be ready in the future when it is exposed to the flu, or whatever.

    Waynis, you realize it's vaccines that got rid of things like small pox and polio, right?
    ecDoesIt

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  11. #10
    Panic Prone waynis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ectx
    It's called sarcasm.

    Razorbrain is replying to Waynis who probably has no clue on how vaccines work. Sorry, buddy, you don't. You want your body to react to it. It means it's working. You're developing an immune response to a foreign compound...only in vaccine form this foreign compound won't really make you sick. It will, however, prime your body to be ready in the future when it is exposed to the flu, or whatever.

    Waynis, you realize it's vaccines that got rid of things like small pox and polio, right?
    haha I don't? It's always wonderful when people come to conclusions about someone when they don't know them personally or know anything about them. Also It's nice when people put words in my mouth like I said every vaccine is bad. Whose talking about small pox and polio? I'am not.

    The flu is completly preventable. Just another money making vaccine which you take a risk of hurting your body. That is all. You like the flu shot and I don't OK..I wasn't planning on starting a arguement cause I can probably guess what your opinion would be. Neither was I going to question your education on the way you felt. A better way to go about it would be to ask me why I feel that way. I will tell you and we can have a intelligent conversation. I merely stated my opinion. You don't like it skip over it and move on with your life. If you question my opinion great, but don't act like you know me or my intentions.
    Last edited by waynis; 02-16-2005 at 05:33 PM.
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  12. #11
    AM MMA Fighter crazedwombat's Avatar
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    Last edited by crazedwombat; 02-18-2005 at 06:36 AM.
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  13. #12
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    do some research before you get vaccinated for ANYTHING

    I'm not saying that all vaccines are worthless, but:
    - there is a small but significant chance of vaccines CAUSING the disease (especially reference the effects of the polio vaccine CAUSING paralytic polio when it was introduced. In recent years, the VAST majority of all reported cases of polio are CAUSED by the vaccine)
    - vaccinationrates have been related to rates of SIDS and autism in the population
    - especially for the generalized vaccinations they push on all children (i.e. the MMR vaccine), while the vaccines have usually been tested individually, rarely are the COMBINED vaccination shots properly tested for safety
    - Vaccine ingredients include known toxicants and carcinogens such as thimersol (a mercury derivative), aluminum phosphate, formaldehyde (for which the Poisons Information Centre in Australia claims there is no acceptable safe amount that can be injected into a living human body), and phenoxyethanol (commonly known as antifreeze).

    The clinical evidence for vaccines is their ability to stimulate antibody production in the vaccine recipient. What I have never understood, is whether or not antibody production constitutes immunity.

    And not to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but the production of vaccines is ENORMOUSLY PROFITABLE. Don't think for a minute that the companies that make the vaccines haven't been helping lobby to make the shots mandatory/etc.

  14. #13
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    P.S.

    ectx, in reference to your comments about "it's vaccines that got rid of things like small pox and polio, right?" I would respectfully disagree. I've read a number of reports that indicate that these diseases were already in decline BEFORE the vaccinations and that in some cases, they caused a resurgence of the diseases, for various reasons.

    Further, there were also declines in polio rates in countries that refused the vaccines at the same time...

    I recognize that this is an area of your expertise but I also don't understand how anyone in the biomedical field can fail to take into account the criticisms of vaccines, or for that matter completely accept the claims made by the manufacturers of these products... by and large the clinical trial processes required when many vaccines were formulated, decades and decades ago, are NOTHING compared to what the FDA requires today. However, these are 'cash cows' for the companies that make them and I am willing to bet that these companies are fighting tooth and nail against any attempt to critically reexamine their efficacy and/or their dangers!

  15. #14
    el imposible ectx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waynis
    haha I don't? It's always wonderful when people come to conclusions about someone when they don't know them personally or know anything about them. Also It's nice when people put words in my mouth like I said every vaccine is bad. Whose talking about small pox and polio? I'am not.

    The flu is completly preventable. Just another money making vaccine which you take a risk of hurting your body. That is all. You like the flu shot and I don't OK..I wasn't planning on starting a arguement cause I can probably guess what your opinion would be. Neither was I going to question your education on the way you felt. A better way to go about it would be to ask me why I feel that way. I will tell you and we can have a intelligent conversation. I merely stated my opinion. You don't like it skip over it and move on with your life. If you question my opinion great, but don't act like you know me or my intentions.
    I don't think I was rude. Heck, I even called you buddy! I do know you're anti traditional medicine. If you make a comment like "if your body is reacting saying I don't want it" then I have to assume you don't know how a vaccine works. That reaction is what illicits the antibody response. Most vaccines, especially recombinant ones use components that will boost the immune response. Heck, if we used the adjuvant that we use in animals to produce monoclonal antibodies you'd get a huge welt at the sight of injection...most likely you already do.


    Yes, the flu is preventable...by boosting your immune system, by sleeping and eating right...and....
    by taking a flu vaccine.

    It's not that I don't respect your opinion. I respect your opinion when it comes to wholistic medicine, I've read all of your posts. I don't always agree with them, but I respect your opinion.

    Here you said that if you're body was reacting to the vaccine then you shouldn't take it. That's not an opinion, it's a false statement.
    ecDoesIt

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  16. #15
    Banned briancurran01's Avatar
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    my arm hurt after my flu shot too...just make sure to move the arm around as much as you can. Mine went away like 2 days after and the day after the shot wasnt as bad as the day of the shot.

  17. #16
    el imposible ectx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callahan
    The clinical evidence for vaccines is their ability to stimulate antibody production in the vaccine recipient. What I have never understood, is whether or not antibody production constitutes immunity.
    Cal, vaccines work based on adaptive immunity. We have 2 types of immunity...innate (macrophages, complement, oxidative bursts, etc) and adaptive (T-cells, B-cells, antibody). Adaptive immunity has memory. It's not antibody production that gives you immunity, but the creation of a subset of B cells and/or T-cells that have the clonal capacity of creating antibody specific to the particular interfering agent. When an individual is exposed to this agent again, that subset of cells will come into action and produce antibody or opsonize infected cells and prevent an infection from ever taking hold. This doesn't work with every disease because some viruses have a high mutation rate, and some bacteria undergo antigenic variation or mimicry. This means that they change themselves a lot, or make themselves look like the host.



    Quote Originally Posted by Callahan
    And not to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but the production of vaccines is ENORMOUSLY PROFITABLE. Don't think for a minute that the companies that make the vaccines haven't been helping lobby to make the shots mandatory/etc.
    Not true! There are only 2 major vaccine makers left in the states...Possibly only 1. This is part of the reason there was a flu vaccine shortage. Making vaccines is not very profitable. In essence you're creating a product that will render its own obsolecence. The R&D costs for vaccine dev. are prohibitive, the production process expensive and tedious, and the profit margins are usually very low. Trust me, it's a lot more profitable to make antidepressants and antibiotics than it is to make vaccines.
    ecDoesIt

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  18. #17
    el imposible ectx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callahan
    P.S.

    ectx, in reference to your comments about "it's vaccines that got rid of things like small pox and polio, right?" I would respectfully disagree. I've read a number of reports that indicate that these diseases were already in decline BEFORE the vaccinations and that in some cases, they caused a resurgence of the diseases, for various reasons.

    Further, there were also declines in polio rates in countries that refused the vaccines at the same time...

    I recognize that this is an area of your expertise but I also don't understand how anyone in the biomedical field can fail to take into account the criticisms of vaccines, or for that matter completely accept the claims made by the manufacturers of these products... by and large the clinical trial processes required when many vaccines were formulated, decades and decades ago, are NOTHING compared to what the FDA requires today. However, these are 'cash cows' for the companies that make them and I am willing to bet that these companies are fighting tooth and nail against any attempt to critically reexamine their efficacy and/or their dangers!
    I never said that vaccines don't have problems. I'm well aware of the side effects present in a very small amount of the population. I'm also well aware of the compounds that are used to elicit a strong immune response. I've worked on the development of vaccines. While getting my masters I did research on what is now a very popular commercially available veterinary vaccine. The process is not infallible and any pharmaceutical agent, including aspirin, carries certain risk.

    Yes there was a decline in polio and small pox. Diseases go through flourishes or epedimic periods. You'll see a decline and rise correlated with several environmental and social factors, the truth is that by vaccinating what pretty much was the entire globe, a Task WHO once considered undoable, small pox was pretty much eradicated. Yes we see it weaponized now, but that's an entirely different problem. For an account of the process and a good review I suggest you read Laurie Garrett's The coming Plague. It is the most complete book on the history of disease that I have seen in a while. It covers everything from politics to science.

    The fact remains, a decline in some areas does not = erradication of disease...we cannot say it would have dissapeared, and in all likelyhood, it wouldn't. Vaccinations made that possible. Yes, you will see 1 or 2 rare cases in developing countries niow, but nothing compared to what we once had.
    ecDoesIt

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  19. #18
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancurran01
    my arm hurt after my flu shot too...just make sure to move the arm around as much as you can. Mine went away like 2 days after and the day after the shot wasnt as bad as the day of the shot.
    Some moderate lifting using the muscles where you got the shot will probably help. Not worth going ot the gym for, but some motion similar to active recovery is a good idea.

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  20. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ectx
    Not true! There are only 2 major vaccine makers left in the states...Possibly only 1. This is part of the reason there was a flu vaccine shortage. Making vaccines is not very profitable. In essence you're creating a product that will render its own obsolecence. The R&D costs for vaccine dev. are prohibitive, the production process expensive and tedious, and the profit margins are usually very low. Trust me, it's a lot more profitable to make antidepressants and antibiotics than it is to make vaccines.
    How does a manufacturer being in the states have anything to do with profitability?

    There are major vaccine manufacturers that may be HQed elsewhere but ultiumately are multinational companies.

    -GlaxoSmithKline
    -Chiron
    -Merck
    -Wyeth
    -Aventis

    Anyone that cares to peruse these companies' investor information will see how profitable they are. Granted they aren't vaccine-only companies but they are by and large public companies, and public companies aren't in the business of maintaining unprofitable lines of business. I should have been clearer in my comments and stated that EXISTING vaccines are profitable.

    R&D costs: I believe you when you say that R&D costs for vaccines are high. But what about stuff that has been around for DECADES (i.e. MMR)? This is surely stuff that has already paid for its own R&D costs many times over and is profitable. Add to that the highly successful lobbying to have the vaccinations made mandatory and you have a classic cash cow situation.

    "In essence you're creating a product that will render its own obsolecence." How does this apply when you have mandated vaccinations for children? As long as children keep being born, there will continue to be a demand.

    To my mind, it's highly instructive to take a look at the agendas of pharma/vaccine industry conferences. Two areas of focus are 'leveraging partnerships' (i.e. convincing government and regulatory bodies to mandate your products and 'new market development' (i.e. expanding market penetration in developing countries to help offset the eroding market in Western countries due to lower birth rates, etc.)

    The bottom line to me is that if vaccines were not profitable, companies would not engage in vaccine research. There's not much room for altruism in a public company.

  21. #20
    el imposible ectx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callahan
    How does a manufacturer being in the states have anything to do with profitability?

    There are major vaccine manufacturers that may be HQed elsewhere but ultiumately are multinational companies.

    -GlaxoSmithKline
    -Chiron
    -Merck
    -Wyeth
    -Aventis

    Anyone that cares to peruse these companies' investor information will see how profitable they are. Granted they aren't vaccine-only companies but they are by and large public companies, and public companies aren't in the business of maintaining unprofitable lines of business. I should have been clearer in my comments and stated that EXISTING vaccines are profitable.
    There use to be more vaccine companies, but they've gradually decreased because of the high cost of R&D, production, and low return. I'll try and get some references tonight. Yes, there is money in vaccines, but not as much as you'd think. If you check closely, the "cash cows" for these companies are not the vaccines, but their other products like proleukin, platinum therapy, etc.

    R&D costs: I believe you when you say that R&D costs for vaccines are high. But what about stuff that has been around for DECADES (i.e. MMR)? This is surely stuff that has already paid for its own R&D costs many times over and is profitable. Add to that the highly successful lobbying to have the vaccinations made mandatory and you have a classic cash cow situation.
    No you don't. The cost for those vaccines is relatively small when you take into consideration production costs. A single polio vaccine is all you need, and cost ranges from $15-$29. Most insurance companies will even cover that cost. A flu vaccine costs $20.

    "In essence you're creating a product that will render its own obsolecence." How does this apply when you have mandated vaccinations for children? As long as children keep being born, there will continue to be a demand.

    To my mind, it's highly instructive to take a look at the agendas of pharma/vaccine industry conferences. Two areas of focus are 'leveraging partnerships' (i.e. convincing government and regulatory bodies to mandate your products and 'new market development' (i.e. expanding market penetration in developing countries to help offset the eroding market in Western countries due to lower birth rates, etc.)

    The bottom line to me is that if vaccines were not profitable, companies would not engage in vaccine research. There's not much room for altruism in a public company.
    Of course there's money to be made, just not as much as you'd think. To say that vaccines are unnecessary is untrue. Several cost benefit analyses show that treating the disease would cost (in US) Upwards of 14 times what it would cost to vaccinate individuals. This varies from disease to disease, but to say that vaccination programs are dubious and not needed is not true. Yes, there are exceptions to this. The flu vaccine is ultimately not necessary as the flu is not as debilitating and life threatening as polio, or diphteria, but it's still not a bad idea to take the vaccine.
    ecDoesIt

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  22. #21
    Panic Prone waynis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callahan
    do some research before you get vaccinated for ANYTHING

    I'm not saying that all vaccines are worthless, but:
    - there is a small but significant chance of vaccines CAUSING the disease (especially reference the effects of the polio vaccine CAUSING paralytic polio when it was introduced. In recent years, the VAST majority of all reported cases of polio are CAUSED by the vaccine)
    - vaccinationrates have been related to rates of SIDS and autism in the population
    - especially for the generalized vaccinations they push on all children (i.e. the MMR vaccine), while the vaccines have usually been tested individually, rarely are the COMBINED vaccination shots properly tested for safety
    - Vaccine ingredients include known toxicants and carcinogens such as thimersol (a mercury derivative), aluminum phosphate, formaldehyde (for which the Poisons Information Centre in Australia claims there is no acceptable safe amount that can be injected into a living human body), and phenoxyethanol (commonly known as antifreeze).

    The clinical evidence for vaccines is their ability to stimulate antibody production in the vaccine recipient. What I have never understood, is whether or not antibody production constitutes immunity.

    And not to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but the production of vaccines is ENORMOUSLY PROFITABLE. Don't think for a minute that the companies that make the vaccines haven't been helping lobby to make the shots mandatory/etc.

    Thankyou for saving my time. I agree with everything you have wrote.
    Never Giving In.

  23. #22
    Panic Prone waynis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ectx

    It's not that I don't respect your opinion. I respect your opinion when it comes to wholistic medicine, I've read all of your posts. I don't always agree with them, but I respect your opinion.

    Here you said that if you're body was reacting to the vaccine then you shouldn't take it. That's not an opinion, it's a false statement.

    But it is your bodies reaction saying I don't want it. I understand the process. believe me. Just like when you get a cold.. your bodies immune system is weakened. It doesn't want that cold so it fights it and developes anti-bodies.

    I did not tell her she shouldn't take it. That would not be my place. Again.. words put in my mouth. All I ask is for the respect I give to you. Maybe at times I seem to come out strong with my posts but in no way do I try to make my replies as if they are the only answers out there. I welcome opinions. I know I don't know everything but I won't post something without a good thought process behind it. I shouldn't have to feel like I have to hide myself from contributing when I honestly say things because I care. I don't do it for post count or try to be the big dog around the forums or try to be a attention whore. I've never been the person to say " look at me" all the time. I just want to help people that is all.
    Never Giving In.

  24. #23
    Senior Member Canadian Crippler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedwombat
    /pwnd
    That's really annoying...

    Look at me guys, I'm cool because I can type /pwned after someone else's intelligent response!!1 Everyone add me to AIM and talk to me now LOLOOLL!
    Last edited by Canadian Crippler; 02-17-2005 at 02:36 PM.
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  25. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian Crippler
    That's really annoying...

    Look at me guys, I'm cool because I can type /pwned after someone else's intelligent response!!1 Everyone add me to AIM and talk to me now LOLOOLL!
    ? I laughed...
    Last edited by BigE54; 02-17-2005 at 03:24 PM.

  26. #25
    AM MMA Fighter crazedwombat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian Crippler
    That's really annoying...

    Look at me guys, I'm cool because I can type /pwned after someone else's intelligent response!!1 Everyone add me to AIM and talk to me now LOLOOLL!
    hah after reading ectx responses, I respectfully retract my statement, I took the first one wrong like waynis did but after reading on, I was wrong
    Last edited by crazedwombat; 02-18-2005 at 06:41 AM.
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