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Thread: super slow training

  1. #1
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    super slow training

    Okay guys, I couldnt find the article I was planning on posting here, but I am gonna give yall a rough description of it anway. This is probably for any upper-body guys in here like me, but you may want to try this with your squats too. Could it help the vert out? I dont know.

    In 1995, a team of reaserchers took a group of 70 men to find out what the effects of super-slow training are compared to regular workouts.

    Super-slow is a regimen of using only 4-6 reps, at a 14 second per rep minimum. That is 4 seconds lowering the weight, and 10 seconds lifting it. Regular trainng was done at 10 reps and 7 second increments.

    They split the men into groups of 35. Group A did normal workouts over the course of 3 months, and were monitored for their progress. Group B did the super-slow training, over the same period of time.

    When the 3 months had completed, Group B had shown 50% more progress as a group than group A.

    They repeated this study in 1998 and got the exact same results. Group B once again had 50% better workout results.

    In 2001, the trainer for the Baltimore Ravens put the entire team on this program, based on what he read from the previous studies. That was the year that they became probably the best defense in the history of the NFL. Coincidence...?

    Now any of yall that are worried about only working the slow twitch fibers, and that it wont help your vert, thin about this: Football is all about fast twitch and explosive power. Endurance need not apply. The Ravens did this program the year they won the superbowl. I've been doing this at the end of my benchpress workouts lately, and I'll tell ya, 14 second reps are intense. I have noticed immediate results also. I don't think it is 50%, but I haven't been doing it like the study said to, though.

    Just food for thought yall. I am thinking about converting to this for a month just to see what I can do, and maybe you should think about it too. Peace.

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    i've never heard of that.. but it sounds intense.. i think i would be scared to do that.. you know that intense feeling you get when you get close to your 1rom and you just struggle with the bar for 5-6 seconds.. its kinda scary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thetrain27
    In 2001, the trainer for the Baltimore Ravens put the entire team on this program, based on what he read from the previous studies. That was the year that they became probably the best defense in the history of the NFL. Coincidence...?

    Now any of yall that are worried about only working the slow twitch fibers, and that it wont help your vert, thin about this: Football is all about fast twitch and explosive power. Endurance need not apply. The Ravens did this program the year they won the superbowl. I've been doing this at the end of my benchpress workouts lately, and I'll tell ya, 14 second reps are intense. I have noticed immediate results also. I don't think it is 50%, but I haven't been doing it like the study said to, though.
    I wouldn't try it just because the Ravens did it and won the superbowl. If that was the reason they won, wouldn't they win it every year (assuming they didn't change the program again)? Try it if you want, this just sounds like more garbage from a muscle mag IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thetrain27
    In 1995, a team of reaserchers took a group of 70 men to find out what the effects of super-slow training are compared to regular workouts..
    Where these untrained athletes or highly trianed athletes before begining the research?

    Quote Originally Posted by thetrain27
    Super-slow is a regimen of using only 4-6 reps, at a 14 second per rep minimum. That is 4 seconds lowering the weight, and 10 seconds lifting it. Regular trainng was done at 10 reps and 7 second increments.
    ]They split the men into groups of 35. Group A did normal workouts over the course of 3 months, and were monitored for their progress. Group B did the super-slow training, over the same period of time.

    When the 3 months had completed, Group B had shown 50% more progress as a group than group A.
    But in that they kept the tension time roughly the same. You have to also compare what happens if they did 4 reps at much quciker tempo eg 4 seconds total rep. SO that would be a test of 4 slow reps versus 4 fast reps. WHich is more a gauge of whether super slow works.
    To really say if super slow works they should test same number of reps not tension time.

    Aslo what progress did they test it on? Hypertophy, strenght, endurance etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by thetrain27
    They repeated this study in 1998 and got the exact same results. Group B once again had 50% better workout results.

    In 2001, the trainer for the Baltimore Ravens put the entire team on this program, based on what he read from the previous studies. That was the year that they became probably the best defense in the history of the NFL. Coincidence...?.
    Did they have the best attack as well? I have no idea about NFL. (non american).
    What trianing programme did they use before they did slow trianing. they may have won even better if they had done a better training programme.

    Quote Originally Posted by thetrain27
    Now any of yall that are worried about only working the slow twitch fibers, and that it wont help your vert, thin about this: Football is all about fast twitch and explosive power. Endurance need not apply. The Ravens did this program the year they won the superbowl. I've been doing this at the end of my benchpress workouts lately, and I'll tell ya, 14 second reps are intense. I have noticed immediate results also. I don't think it is 50%, but I haven't been doing it like the study said to, though.

    Just food for thought yall. I am thinking about converting to this for a month just to see what I can do, and maybe you should think about it too. Peace.
    so what was your immediate results you noticed? #
    aslo the 50% better workout is unlikely to be a 50% increase. but the results were 50% better than group A.

    eg group B increased there bench press by 5 pounds over peroid X. while gorups A increased there bench press by 2.5 pounds over same peroid. Thus reuslt were 50% better.
    rather than people in gorup B having a bench off 200 pounds and now they are benching 300 pounds.
    my exprience - joined gym 10 years ago, 6 1/2 years hard weight training exprience.

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    That study was done incorrectly.

    First off, Super slow training is done by doing 10 seconds on the positive and 10 seconds on the negative portion of the rep. Not 4 and 10. This isn't your fault, it is the flaw of the study.

    Second. If you truly are working out at a true super slow gym the training is very technical, and I mean technical in the fact that there aren't any mirrors in the gym, no music, your trainer is wearing a suit and a tie, and the temperature is 60 degrees in the gym at all times. There is only one person allowed to workout at one time. It is very clinical, and you feel like you are going to the doctors' office. These people don't believe in any cardio work at all. They are very against it. They think it is the dumbest thing you can do.

    Next, you only workout ONCE a WEEK for 20 minutes at a time. That is just crazy. They believe that because you workout at such a high intensity you need this insane amount of rest between workouts. I've seen some of these workouts, and they are good, but they aren't working any harder than my clients who come in 2-3 times a week. And for the most part my clients work harder than theirs.

    If you really are into technical, and clinical training this workout is for you, but I really don't agree with their stance on frequency of workouts, and their STUPID stance on cardio.

    Will you get a benefit from training this way? Maybe. There are a ton of ways to strength train, but super slow training is not really ideal in my eyes. You could do about 50 better routines than this one. I would advise to stay away from it.
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    I'm not a fan of it at all, I personally believe it makes athletes slower. There's a prof at my University here that touts it. We go back and forth (good-naturedly) once in a while.

    Can you progress on it? Sure. Realistically, if someone is lifting weights, they'll see more progress than someone who isn't, almost depsite the program. I just don't feel it's optimal for training, and especially not for athletes.

    A guy I used to work with did an internship with the Ravens. They still use HIT training, although it's not quite as regimented as super-slow. He's a huge fan, despite that a lot of the team doesn't work out with the staff (they do their own thing, have their own trainers, etc). The system is big on machines to prevent the balance issues with the bar that someone mentioned.

    Basically, this guy's whole attitude towards training pro athletes (and I thus assume the staff that he interned under) is "Don't hurt them". He'd prefer to train them poorly in the slowest, most deliberate style to avoid injuring them rather than actually make them better. He feels that "by the time they get to that (NFL) level, you can't make them any better anyway". I feel that is absolutely ludicrous.
    Last edited by Isaac Wilkins; 03-26-2005 at 09:19 AM.
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    Actually, RealTO, superslow as described by Darden is with a 10 second concentric and 5 second eccentric ROM.

    Now, the progress noted is great but completely expected when someone undertakes a new form of training. The S.A.I.D. (Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demand) principle always applies to training. Superslow (SS) training imposes a very different demand on the body than standard training. For someone to note great progress when following a SS program would be entirely expected as the body adapts to this new form of training.

    SS training is a viable form of training and one that I practiced exclusively for an extended period of time. That said, I chose to return to a more standard form of training because I feel it works best overall for size and strength.


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    Actually Super Slow was developed in the late seventies-early eighties as a result of an osteoporosis study. It was developed in order to increase the tension on the muscle and decrease the force on the joints and connective tissue.

    It has become more popular in the last ten years as a viable training method for healthy individuals.

    Super Slow does not give a specific rep cadence as every exercise has a different stroke length and therefore makes it difficult to set an exact rep cadence. However generally speaking a 10 sec. positive and 10 sec. negative is recommended in a general sense.

    Super Slow advocates do not recommend only 1 workout a week but rather the number of workouts needed to create a maximum stimulus and facilitate total recovery.
    This is generally 2-3 workouts a week. A typical workout would last approximately 30 minutes.

    The stance on aerobic work is basically that not much is needed in order to address the heart and lungs and that through proper strength training,the stimulus to the heart and lungs is adequate.

    Not all super slow practioners wear a shirt and tie.

    Real TO what would you recommend instead of super slow?

    I have been practicing super slow for 10 years and have found no other training methodology to be as safe or superior for strength, size, and most important to me total body conditioning!

    Also Real TO have you read the Super Slow Manual?

    One more thought: lifting slowly does not make you slow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Intensity
    One more thought: lifting slowly does not make you slow.

    I misspoke. My statement was off the cuff, and it shouldn't have been.

    I should have worded it as: "To be fast, practice being fast", despite that I wrote the opposite. I agree, lifting slow does not necessarily make one slow. I feel it does not optimize speed or power for the athlete, however.

    I do feel super slow training is a legitimate hypertrophy program, although again probably not the first one I'd recommend.
    Last edited by Isaac Wilkins; 03-26-2005 at 11:14 AM.
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    Borris,

    Your point is well taken. I always learned that a stronger muscle is a faster muscle. Then to get fast at a specific task or skill, practice that task or skill at game speed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Intensity
    Borris,

    Your point is well taken. I always learned that a stronger muscle is a faster muscle. Then to get fast at a specific task or skill, practice that task or skill at game speed.
    That's pretty much true. A stronger muscle tends to be a faster muscle, although there's an element of speed recruitment in there that would be lacking. In general it works out that stronger = faster until one get's very unbalanced in either direction.

    If I take a relatively untrained athlete (say a high school kid with decent skills and ability but little weight room experience as many have) and put him on a super slow routine where he goes from leg pressing 200 for a ten-second cadence (I'm throwing out some numbers) for 8 reps, and after a year he's doing 325 for the same cadence and 8 reps, then he will probably be faster and a better jumper by virtue of being much stronger. After a few weeks of training in sprinting or jumping or whatever then he'd probably be faster still.

    He'll also probably have some much more impressive wheels.

    I think I could progress him faster with a Westside or olympic lifting program, but that's not really what super slow is all about. The prof at my school does try to push it on to athletes, though.
    Last edited by Isaac Wilkins; 03-26-2005 at 11:24 AM.
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    The official super slow program, as opposed to generic slow tempo technique, has some very dedicated adherents. Some say they exhibit almost cult like behavior. I tend to mistrust anyone who thinks that their method is superior to all others and then go to extreme lengths to prove it.

    And quite frankly, many of the super slow techniques and strictures are just plain weird. Their language and obsession is even more weird.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Intensity
    Actually Super Slow was developed in the late seventies-early eighties as a result of an osteoporosis study. It was developed in order to increase the tension on the muscle and decrease the force on the joints and connective tissue..
    Are you saying a slow movement put more tension on a muscle than a fast movement (well explosive movement that is quick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Intensity

    I have been practicing super slow for 10 years and have found no other training methodology to be as safe or superior for strength, size, and most important to me total body conditioning!
    .
    before you did super slow trianing. What other methods of trianing did you try?
    What top athletes in the world of body building, storng men and powerlifitng have based there routine on super slow training?
    my exprience - joined gym 10 years ago, 6 1/2 years hard weight training exprience.

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    body,

    With a fast lifting speed you create a great amount of undesirable momentum. By slowing the movement down you actually put alot more tension on the working muscle therefore increasing the demand placed on the muscle. Simply put it is alot more effective. Just try it sometime. Any exercise you want, then lift in slow motion.

    I have done every protocol under the sun mainly as a result of playing alot of sports.

    Top athletes and bodybuilders I don't know you could probably do a search of some sorts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by body
    Are you saying a slow movement put more tension on a muscle than a fast movement (well explosive movement that is quick)
    I think he's indicating that it will increase time under tension for the muscle with much less strain on the joints, which I agree with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Intensity
    body,

    With a fast lifting speed you create a great amount of undesirable momentum. By slowing the movement down you actually put alot more tension on the working muscle therefore increasing the demand placed on the muscle. Simply put it is alot more effective. Just try it sometime. Any exercise you want, then lift in slow motion..
    why is it "undesirable momentum"?
    Say if i squat X weight that is my 3RM. I will be lifting very explosively and trying to accelerate all the way to the top of the movement. Thus keeping the tension very high. The movement will have momentum, but the weight I am using will stop me from flying it up and using other body part to help me lift it. thus i will be getting maximum fibre recruitment that I am capable of which thus give a high tension.

    I have tried slow lifting. WHile it may feel intense that more due to the fact I get a little board while lifitng.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Intensity
    I have done every protocol under the sun mainly as a result of playing alot of sports.

    Top athletes and bodybuilders I don't know you could probably do a search of some sorts.
    How long did you give these other protocals for? As if i did any routine for ten years i would expect to get better gain out of it than other routines.

    As for asking about top athletes, Its more that if this method is clealy the best as you state above then I would expect other people to be using it.
    my exprience - joined gym 10 years ago, 6 1/2 years hard weight training exprience.

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    body,

    Good points, the weight should be so heavy that you are unable to lift fast. I tend to think that a lifting speed under 5 seconds would be creating to much momentum. You can tell if you are not creating maximum tension throughout the full range of motion.

    I did other protocols for 5-9 years. Just when I switched it was just another world.

    I don't know who is doing this type of training, I kinda don't care. I have been around alot of athletes and most (in my opinion) are great athletes despite their training.

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    body,

    Oh one more thing. I said, meant , it was the best for me.

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    [QUOTE=Mr. Intensity]body,

    Good points, the weight should be so heavy that you are unable to lift fast. I tend to think that a lifting speed under 5 seconds would be creating to much momentum. You can tell if you are not creating maximum tension throughout the full range of motion.
    QUOTE]

    I think we are not going to agree on this.

    But in trianing programme like west side on dymanic days. How do you rate them? as these are about moving the weight as quickly as possible to increase your power out put.
    my exprience - joined gym 10 years ago, 6 1/2 years hard weight training exprience.

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    Body,

    There are alot of great ways to lift weights. Alot of these get people good results. I don't know if there is any almighty best way to train for every body. With that being said I don't care for lifting weights fast, I don't understand what you are trying to do other than get hurt. But that is MY OPINION!

    It is perfectly OK to agree to disagree.

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    though in debates before we have discuses the risk levels of injuries with different tempo of lifts etc.

    Not everyone agreed, but i go for more explosive lifting as long as controlled should not really cause that great risk of injury. especially when compared to doing contact sports. which i do as well
    my exprience - joined gym 10 years ago, 6 1/2 years hard weight training exprience.

  23. #23
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    The whole idea of undesirable momentum which is advocated by HIT proponents (and I used to be one of them) is based upon an unproven premise. To say that momentum and explosive movements are undesirable is not necessarily accurate. For instance, the muscles of the lower back are incredibly developed in Olympic athletes and they primarily practice explosive movements.

    It has NOT been proven that all muscles respond better to reduced momentum...


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    Max tension on the muscle is merely maximal force the muscle is required to generate.

    Force = mass * acceleration

    If you "leave out" momentum (p = mass * velocity), then you're not generating maximal force.

    High momentum is arrived at by a high acceleration, and consequently a high force.

    This says nothing of the efficacy of the program. Merely that it's incorrect to say that slowing down the exercise somehow increases the tension, flying in the face of physical laws.
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    Chris,

    What unproven premise? I know alot of people practice explosive movements I just can't figure out why? What olympic athletes? Curling? And they do what explosive movements?

    I haven't seen it proven that muscles respond better to increased momentum...

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