What sort of weekly weight gains should I be aiming for when attempting a clean bulk?
Depends. Too many factors involved. Figure your caloric needs based on your goals, body composition, height, weight, and so on. Put together a meal plan, and stick with it for 2 weeks, and then assess your progress and tweak your diet as you see fit. It's the only way. Track your diet http://www.fitday.com/. We need more information to properly address your inquiry.
1 pound per week is the rough guideline usually mentioned around here.
Bravo: There's a difference between aiming and expecting ... I don't think Ashley was asking what to expect.
Ashley: Most people aim for 1-2lbs / week while bulking.
might want to add stats...
bulking from 100 lbs and from 200 lbs are not the same
Anthony: Also depends on how slow(minimal fat gain) of a clean bulk may be desired. As far as expecting or aiming is concerned it depends on this persons goals, so let's not talk semantics. I aim and expect a .5-1lb a week as my goals also include minimizing fat gain. Try to understand what my point was before discrediting it. I'm not trying to argue with you here, man.
Ashley: I repeat state your goals, body composition, height, weight, and so on.
oh snap!!Originally Posted by Bravo
agreedOriginally Posted by Bravo
Bravo: it's not semantics, I just think you misunderstood the original question (which is apparent when you told him to calculate his calorie needs based on his goals ... he asked the question so he could formulate his goals) ... but I'll humor you.
Person #1: male, 25 years old, training 5 years, 5'10, 200lbs, 10% body fat, wants to clean bulk (body fat stays at 10%) to 220. What type of weekly gains should he aim for?
Person #2: male, 15 years old, training a few months, 5'10, 150lbs, 7% body fat, wants to clean bulk (body fat stays at 7%) to 175. What type of weekly gains should he aim for?
Although I'm trying to avoid arguing the point that his goals need to be determined first, I do believe that your asking me these questions proves it for me unless you'd prescribe the same weekly weight gain for both scenarios, in which case I'd have to disagree with you.Originally Posted by Anthony
Instead of our debating hypothetical situations, because we all know that fat accumlation is a very personal characteristic anyway, why doesn't the original poster just state his stats and goals as requested not only by myself in this thread?
Personally, Anthony, I just wouldn't give a generalized response to his question as you did.
Last edited by Bravo; 07-19-2005 at 02:46 AM.
Bravo, I gave you the information you requested, so give me your advice on what each person should aim for. If you need more information to determine this, ask me. If you have different advice for each individual, explain why. It's not very difficult and it will give you the opportunity to display your skills. So fire away.
I generalized because;
1) most people fall into the 1-2lbs/week category. I apologize if you felt I should break it down into quarter pounds, but most people don't use scales with such accuracy. Not to mention there are too many variables to determine if that 0.25lbs is actual gain or just left over pasta sitting in your stomach.
2) Ashley is fairly new to the game (based on reading previous posts). A general guideline is all (s)he needs at this point.
So again, answer my question about Person 1 & 2 and then we can move on.
#1 Already knows what he has to do b/c he has 10 years of experience.
#2 Is still learning and doesn't know what to do so he find a website www.wannabebig.com and comes on to ask the people that have so much more knowledge then him for some help.
Person #3: 17 years old, never lifted b4, 250 lbs+, reads this forum saying bulk first, bulk first, eat, eat, eat....so he comes on here saying he needs to clean bulk, although he obviously doesnt need to...what do u tell him?
but to humor you...both person #1 and person #2 will want to shoot for 1-2 lbs weekly
In both scenarios you have bodyfat staying the same while bulking, which only reeeeaaaalllyyy genetically gifted people will be able to do anyhow, so neither scenario is actually valid. So, I'm sorry. I refuse to argue an absolute with you. Fat gain is just so damn personal, anyway. I feel like I'm arguing with myself here. Some people can have an astronomic caloric surplus while bulking and gain hardly any fat because they have adaptive metabolisms, while others have to be carefull not have a surplus of over 200kcal a day or they gain too much fat.
I feel that I addressed his points briefly in my first post when I stated :
"Figure your caloric needs based on your goals, body composition, height, weight, and so on. Put together a meal plan, and stick with it for 2 weeks, and then assess your progress and tweak your diet as you see fit. It's the only way."
Are you following me?
An accepted equation for a clean bulk is normally LBMx15+500kcal
My point is 500kcal might fatten his a$$ right up. Gaining 1lb per week or gaining 2lbs per week might make for quite a gradual difference over the period of a bulk in this persons' bodycomposition. He's shooting for a clean bulk, and by his stating this I'm inferring he means minimal fat gain, right? So please refer to my original post.
Last edited by Bravo; 07-19-2005 at 09:58 AM.
Come on, man, quarter pounds. That's just insulting. I think as a beginner, Ashley should focus on his/her caloric needs and how his/her body responds to a certain surplus, rather than just a generalized answer of 1-2 lbs of scale weight. Remember that he/she wants to bulk cleanly(minimal fat gain)Originally Posted by Anthony
Bravo, I don't think you've listened to a word I've said.
How do you determine your goals? You pick the amount you want to gain within a certain time frame. So if you want to gain 10lbs in 2 months, you're looking at 1.25/week (love those quarter pounds!). To me, that's pretty realistic for most trainers. Well what if you have no idea what is realistic? There are plenty of examples of new guys thinking they can pack on 50lbs within 2 months and have it be pure muscle. So if they used that train of thought they'd be gaining over 6lbs a week. You and I both know this is going to result in major fat gain. So what I have been trying to explain is that in order for Ashley to determine a realistic goal based on weight and timeframe, (s)he needs to know what is generally accomplished amongest his/her peers (this is the part that you skipped when you jumped into the calorie argument). Which is exactly what (s)he asked in the original post - What's the typical amount to gain while on a clean bulk? Once (s)he has that value, THEN (s)he can determine the required calories based on body type/metabolism/level of training/activity/etc.
If you don't know how much you are trying to gain, you have no way to determine calories. Makes sense, right?
PS - I love how you avoided the hypothetical scenarios despite the fact that I gave every piece of info you requested. Here I am trying to learn how you automagically determine the amount to gain per week based on stats and you're being modest with your wealth of info. So come on man, share it!
PPS - I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but I think you missed the point of the original post and I'm trying to highlight it for you in a polite manner.
It wasn't avoidance. It was outright refusal to take your rediculous bait and argue hypothetical absolutes. Who do you think you're dealing with?
Let's put it in simple terms so everyone understands this time. This person wants to gain weight. How do you gain weight? Well, you eat more calories, right? Right. So the process begins here.
But there is another stipulation, isn't there? Yes. What is it? Well, this person doesn't want to gain fat. So what to do? Well, you then take a generally accepted equation for bulking cleanly and you apply it.(one which I have already stated) After doing so for two weeks, you weigh yourself, measure your bodyfat, and you should also be taking pictures or at least assessing your appearance in the mirror. With this new information you then can determine how you are progressing, right? Still with me? Ok. Let's move on. If this person is gaining too much fat for their taste, they can lower their surplus. On the other hand, if they are not gaining much fat at all, they can raise their surplus in hopes that it will render a larger gain in lean body mass. Ok? Simple enough? Class is finished.
Can any of you guys actually do this?Originally Posted by Anthony
So far I have been categorically incapable of gaining weight without some concurrent fat gain. That was at approx 1lb per week at a starting weight of 175 and 10.4% bf.
If there is some advice you have for making the above scenario possible I'd love to hear it!!
One of my clearly aforementioned points. I do, however, apologize to Anthony for the condescending tone of my last post as he is a member that has proven himself knowledgable and is a repected member of this forum.Originally Posted by bigsethmeister
I gave you the examples in order to determine your process for what is an acceptable amount of weight gain per week. Despite your efforts to imply there are vast differences in what one person will gain without fat versus another, the reality is that most people will be very similar - provided their training and diet regiment is ideal for their lifestyle/body type/etc. So knowing this, it's pretty easy (and acceptable) to give a generalized range to someone starting out. This range helps determine goals. If I can gain 1-2lbs/week while my body fat stays the same, I can determine the time it will take to gain ##lbs. If I don't even have a clue what an acceptable range is for my peers, how do I determine my goals? Your last post gave a good method to determine this, but there's no way in hell you required details to describe the method. And to be honest, I don't think it's 100% necessary for someone starting out to put that much effort into counting/weighing/measuring/timing every single aspect of their routine in order to come up with a VERY similar number that could be given as a range by anyone who has every bulked/cut before. You follow?
As for your refusal, I don't think it helps your argument much. You requested certain information, implying that you would use it to determine the number requested in the original post. Would it help if I told you I know people who fit these descriptions, so it's not actually hypothetical? So let's have it. Use the info I gave you and make a recommendation or resign from your stance that you actually required the info.
edit: removed certain comments after I saw the apology.
Last edited by Anthony; 07-19-2005 at 11:31 AM.
To a certain extent yes. I bulked for approx 2 years and my body fat percentage remained virtually the same. Of course, I hit plateaus during this time frame as it wasn't a constant bulk like most do for short periods, but I knew I wasn't going to stop trying until I reached a certain weight. Keep in mind that just because the percentage remains the same, it doesn't mean you aren't gaining fat. If you go from 200 @ 10% to 225 @ 10%, you just gained 2.5lbs of fat. And if you want an idea of how much room 2.5lbs of fat takes up, go buy 5lbs of extra lean hamburger and you'll have a rough idea.Originally Posted by bigsethmeister
As for advice on how to do it, that's where Bravo's argument comes into play. It's going to be highly individualized based on your life style, training, diet, sleep pattern, age, training experience, genetics, etc.
Last edited by Anthony; 07-19-2005 at 12:49 PM. Reason: fixed math :P
We will have to agree to disagree. Metabolisms and body types differ greatly. I feel that the fact that he/she wants to bulk cleanly clearly negates the option of giving completely over-generalized information. I think it's pretty clear by now that I asked for his stats in order to give advice from a caloric standpoint which would be much more useful than a generic answer of 1-2 lbs per week . I never claimed nor implied to have some magical formula to determine how much would/could/should be gained and neither do you. 1-2 lbs a week is a rather large range for a clean bulk, anyway.
Fair enough. So based on the scenarios I gave you, which contain the info you requested, how many calories should each person consume. I'm curious.
Dont you mean that if you went from 200@ 10% to 225@10% you would have gained 2.5lbs of fat??? I've never bulked or cut before and I dont know that much about it but I find it hard to believe you can gain a pound of lean muscle mass every week (or are we talkin with the slight fat weight gain also). But still in your scenario in the post above mine, the guy would have gained 2.5lbs of fat and 17.5lbs of muscle (coupled in with water weight I guess). Now I would think that 17.5lbs of muslce would take months to pack on probably a year.
To humor you, use the formula already provided. You haven't stated LBM. Do the math. Gotta run, now. I'll check back later...Originally Posted by Anthony