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Thread: could my routine be holding me back?

  1. #1
    Senior Member thajeepster's Avatar
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    could my routine be holding me back?

    I think ive got my diet in order, so the only other conclusion as to why im not putting on weight is my routine... Please critique the hell out of it, I need it. BTW im about 155lbs 5-10, trying to eventually get up to 170-175lbs.

    TRAINING

    Day 1 Back, Traps

    Deadlifts
    1 warmup 12-15
    3 x 8,6,6
    Wide Grip Chins (weighted)
    3 x 8,6,6
    Bentover BB Rows
    3 x 8,6,6
    1 arm DB rows
    2 x 8,8
    BB Shrugs
    2 x 8,6
    DB Shrugs
    2 x 8,6

    Day 2 Shoulders, Biceps

    Seated Military Press
    1 warmup 12-15
    3 x 6,5,4
    DB Side Lat raises
    2 x 8,8
    DB Front raises
    2 x 8,8
    Machine Reverse flyes
    2 x 8,8
    BB Preacher Curls (standing)
    3 x 8,6,6
    DB Hammer Curls
    2 x 8,6
    EZ bar Reverse Curls
    2 x 8,6
    Concentration Curls
    2 x 10,10

    Day 3 Cardio 30min jog followed by various abs

    Day 4 Chest, Triceps

    Flat BB Press
    1 warmup 12-15
    3 x 8,6,4
    Incline DB Press
    3 x 6,6,4
    Weighted Dips
    3 x 6,6,4
    Flat DB Flyes or High Cable Crossovers
    3 x 6,6,6
    Close Grip BB Press
    3 x 8,6,4
    Cable Pressdowns
    3 x 6,6,6
    Skull Crushers BB
    3 x 6,6,6
    Kickbacks (DB or Cable)
    2 x 10,10

    Day 5 LEGS!

    Squats
    1 warmup 12-15
    4 x 8,8,6,6
    Leg Press
    3 x 8,6,6
    Stiff Leg Deadlift
    3 x 8,6,6
    Leg Extensions (rotate with DB Lunges)
    3 x 8,8,8
    Seated Calf Raises
    3 x 8,6,4
    Standing 1 leg DB Calf Raises
    2 x 8,8

    Day 6 OFF

    Day 7 Cardio 30min jog followed by various abs

    Day 8 Repeat...

  2. #2
    Perpetual Hunger
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    Personally I think you are leaving it to long before you train each body part again. Also I see that you do only 2 sets for most exercises so try increasing that to 3 sets or 4.

    I have pretty much the same stats as you only that I am slightly heavier at 168lbs but I am the same height. About 2 months ago I was only 150lbs an was living on about 1200 cals a day. As soon as I left school I started training properly and increased my cals to around 2300 a day with about 130 grams of protein. And I have put on about 20lbs.

    I believe that you should only train each body part once a week if you are training with maximum intensity which you are clearly not.
    22 - 5'9'' - 200 lb
    PR's - Squat 300 | Bench 225 | Deadlift 400 | BW 200
    "Squat Much"?

  3. #3
    Wannabebig Member
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    A couple tips,

    - Sets of 4 - 6 are used for building strength. Sets of 8 - 12 are for building size. Increasing your repititions may help you. (remember the olympic female bodybuilder who squated 3 times her bodyweight weighed only 105 lbs and she trained in the 4-6 region)
    - How long have you been doing this program you should know that the body adapts to a program and results tend to decrease as you continue to follow the same program. It is recommeneded you change your training program every 6-8 weeks in order to prevent your muscles from adapting to the program (yes our body tends to do annoying things like that). Our body trys to find easier ways to surpass the great amounts of stress you press onto it each day!!!

  4. #4
    Senior Member smalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitnessfreak
    A couple tips,

    - Sets of 4 - 6 are used for building strength. Sets of 8 - 12 are for building size. Increasing your repititions may help you. (remember the olympic female bodybuilder who squated 3 times her bodyweight weighed only 105 lbs and she trained in the 4-6 region)
    - How long have you been doing this program you should know that the body adapts to a program and results tend to decrease as you continue to follow the same program. It is recommeneded you change your training program every 6-8 weeks in order to prevent your muscles from adapting to the program (yes our body tends to do annoying things like that). Our body trys to find easier ways to surpass the great amounts of stress you press onto it each day!!!

    I'm going to try to say this in the nicest way possible. Most of what you just stated in that post is extremely narrow minded and the rest is misguided at best. You seem to be trying to take a very specific and exact aproach to something that never is.

    Who says the body takes 6-8 weeks to adapt and in what way? Adaptation to imposed demand is WHAT WE WANT. Like the adaption to using heavier weigths or more reps. THAT is how your routine should change, not changing everything up the "shock" the body.

    Set's of 4-6 can induce hypertrophy and 15 reps can build strength. Guidelines are just that, so try not to use them as cut and dry, exact, cookie cutter, one way to get the job done, specifics.

    To jeepster. Having your diet "in order" does not ensure weight gain. Eating more calories than you burn does, that's it. Personally I say cut your volume way back and increase your calories by 750 minimum per day and watch your wieght on your body and the bar increase.
    Diet is key, the calorie is king

    "Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be."
    --Abraham Lincoln

    "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
    Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination
    alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'press on' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
    Calvin Coolidge (1872-1933)
    30th U.S. President

    "If you want to look abnormal you have to eat abnormal,lol."--ST

  5. #5
    Senior Member DNL's Avatar
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    yeah dude your volume is really high from my point of view. It is not really about the amount of work you do, but rather about the effort you put in each time you do it.

    If it was me, this is what i would do.
    -- i think you should switch and do back/bis and shoulders/trap. I mean your bis should be pretty beat up from all those pulling movements.
    -- Just 3 sets of either BB shrug or DB shrugs (i don't see the need to do both in the same session. The traps is also being worked during deadlift).
    -- i wouldn't do 4 different biceps exercises. I usually only do about 3-6 sets for bis. Again my bis are already getting worked from back movements.
    -- You don't really need 4 tris exercises (unless you're a professional bodybuilder, well i should say advance BB), especially if you are training them after chest.
    -- eliiminate kickback.
    -- I dont think you need squat, leg press, and leg extension all in one day. may be do squat one week with high foot placemeng leg press follow by STDL. And do leg press and leg extension next week or so.

    I gained weight from doing as little cardio as possible. I usually do 10 mins of short burst of speed... push/jump or running suicide on the court.

    Anyway goodluck.
    Last edited by DNL; 08-02-2005 at 03:32 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalls
    I'm going to try to say this in the nicest way possible. Most of what you just stated in that post is extremely narrow minded and the rest is misguided at best. You seem to be trying to take a very specific and exact aproach to something that never is.

    Who says the body takes 6-8 weeks to adapt and in what way? Adaptation to imposed demand is WHAT WE WANT. Like the adaption to using heavier weigths or more reps. THAT is how your routine should change, not changing everything up the "shock" the body.

    Set's of 4-6 can induce hypertrophy and 15 reps can build strength. Guidelines are just that, so try not to use them as cut and dry, exact, cookie cutter, one way to get the job done, specifics.
    Actually smalls I did not state that he needed to change up his entire routine if he has been following it for a year then changing up things in the program can get him out of a rut if he has hit a plateau or seen no progression. This includes changing the volume, changing the repititions, switching the days or even switching to try new types of exercises. Even professional bodybuilders follow a periodizartion program that helps them to undergo cointinuous progression. Adaptations can occur in the muscle at the neuromuscular level, the myofibrils as well as in the contractile protein.

    And the 4-6 repititions are actually best for strength, I prefer to use the 8-12 for hypertrophy which is best. It is true that hypertrophy occurs at all levels it always depends on whether you reach failure at the last repititon and whether you continue to increase the weight. However, fatiguing in the 8-12 range is proven as best for hypertrophy/ size gains.

    As for calling me narrow-minded and misguided. That was not required and a definite insult. Don't act like a know it all and insult others who only mean't to have good intentions.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Jorge Sanchez's Avatar
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    If you are not gaining WEIGHT, it is because you are not eating enough. If you are gaining weight, but not muscle, then it might be your routine.
    quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur

  8. #8
    Senior Member Canadian Crippler's Avatar
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    What's with all these weird splits? Shoulders and bi's?

    Anyways, why not try an upper/lower? I found my best gains with that routine by far... God knows why I'm doing something loserific right now.
    "I added some db curls with the pink weights for a bit of a burn." - Rookiebldr

    "im assuming the holy (big) 3 are: curls, bench, legs?" - Saggas

    "had a huge ass burn on my triceps while I was doing those kickbacks, so they'll likely be staying with my exercise program." - Zearoth

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  9. #9
    Senior Member smalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitnessfreak
    Actually smalls I did not state that he needed to change up his entire routine if he has been following it for a year then changing up things in the program can get him out of a rut if he has hit a plateau or seen no progression. This includes changing the volume, changing the repititions, switching the days or even switching to try new types of exercises. Even professional bodybuilders follow a periodizartion program that helps them to undergo cointinuous progression. Adaptations can occur in the muscle at the neuromuscular level, the myofibrils as well as in the contractile protein.

    And the 4-6 repititions are actually best for strength, I prefer to use the 8-12 for hypertrophy which is best. It is true that hypertrophy occurs at all levels it always depends on whether you reach failure at the last repititon and whether you continue to increase the weight. However, fatiguing in the 8-12 range is proven as best for hypertrophy/ size gains.

    As for calling me narrow-minded and misguided. That was not required and a definite insult. Don't act like a know it all and insult others who only mean't to have good intentions.
    I didnt call YOU narrow-minded or misguided, I was talking about the information in your post. You used specific numbers as though they are set in stone and the only way to get the job done. I just read about 10 posts from you and they all seemed very exact, so I picked this one to display my disagreement with your approach. I wasnt trying to be a jerk, just trying to get you to see the more broad view.

    You didnt address my questions about when adaptation occurs and how that is possibly a bad thing.

    Whatever classes you have taken or books you have read, you should be taking the information with a grain of salt. Saying one thing is best for all peoples in all situtations is a bit silly. There are many impressionable noobie lifters here and I feel it's best to teach basic principles and not sound like a textbook.
    Hypertrophy does not depend on failure and I would like to know where you found that info.

    To the original poster: Gains are so much more dependent on diet than routine it's not even funny. Keep your routine basic and intense and eat until you are gaining weight.
    Diet is key, the calorie is king

    "Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be."
    --Abraham Lincoln

    "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
    Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination
    alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'press on' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
    Calvin Coolidge (1872-1933)
    30th U.S. President

    "If you want to look abnormal you have to eat abnormal,lol."--ST

  10. #10
    Senior Member djreef's Avatar
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    The big problem I see is that you're burning up the muscle as fast as you're creating it with all that volume. If you don't make up your calorie deficits with food then your body will burn your own muscle tissue for energy. It's a cannibalistic conundrum, and a nasty trap to fall into. Dial back the volume and eat more food like those before have stated. You may want to cut a day of training per week also, just to see if your strength goes up. You may be overtrained - do a search on overtraining to get more info. You grow only when you've recovered properly.

    DJ

  11. #11
    Mint
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalls
    To the original poster: Gains are so much more dependent on diet than routine it's not even funny. Keep your routine basic and intense and eat until you are gaining weight.
    And that's the truth.

    Case closed.
    "To make a big training like Dimas, you can not be a pussy." - Christos Iakovou

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalls
    I didnt call YOU narrow-minded or misguided, I was talking about the information in your post. You used specific numbers as though they are set in stone and the only way to get the job done. I just read about 10 posts from you and they all seemed very exact, so I picked this one to display my disagreement with your approach. I wasnt trying to be a jerk, just trying to get you to see the more broad view.

    You didnt address my questions about when adaptation occurs and how that is possibly a bad thing.

    Whatever classes you have taken or books you have read, you should be taking the information with a grain of salt. Saying one thing is best for all peoples in all situtations is a bit silly. There are many impressionable noobie lifters here and I feel it's best to teach basic principles and not sound like a textbook.
    Hypertrophy does not depend on failure and I would like to know where you found that info.
    Smalls I understand your viewpoint and why you may thing I use numbers that are set in stone. You have to understand that what I use personally in my training program and when informing others, I provide information that has been scientifically proven to work best for the greater number of people. Often in my training program I tend to deviate from the norm and try something new. Personally I did provide information on the basic principles when I informed him (when providing information on reps - if that is not basic then what is?).

    According to my strength training instructor who has a PHD in exercise science, he informed us that the best hypertrophy gains occur when you work to fatigue or continue to increase the weights (at about 70-80% of your RM). When I switched to this type of program from my old program (which did not work to fatigue) it made such a difference I would recommend it to anyone.

    I sure wasn't too specific in providing information on adaptation. The body adapting to the stresses applied by resistance training is the good adaptation, since it causes your muscles to try to compensate for the increased stress by increasing the amount of contractile protein, in the muscle (actin, myosin etc...), increasing the number of myofibrils per fibre (ad growth of the sarcoplasm) and theres an increase of connective tissue surrounding the muscle fiber this leads to the overall "great" hypertrophy.

    The reason why I think its a good idea to add a little tweak to your program every 2 months is because you may not stress your body in specific ways or your muscles may become accustomed to a specific amount of weight and not stressing your muscles in different ways may prevent the good hypertrophy from occuring. So if you cannot seem to increase the weight at an exercise for a specific muscle group then changing up the exercise can allow you to work the same muscle but allow progression that was previously plateaued. Also not increasing the weights is most likely to cause you to plateau as your muscle adapts to increase only that weight and not more than that.

    I think I confused myself by mixing up plateau with adaptations. Does that make sense..

  13. #13
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thajeepster
    I think ive got my diet in order, so the only other conclusion as to why im not putting on weight is my routine... Please critique the hell out of it, I need it. BTW im about 155lbs 5-10, trying to eventually get up to 170-175lbs.

    TRAINING

    Day 1 Back, Traps

    Day 2 Shoulders, Biceps

    Day 3 Cardio 30min jog followed by various abs

    Day 4 Chest, Triceps

    Day 5 LEGS!

    Day 6 OFF

    Day 7 Cardio 30min jog followed by various abs

    Day 8 Repeat...
    Eat more. Sleep more. Get stronger. Train 3 or 4x/week. Train squats, bench, and rows every week.
    Do these things and you will get much, much bigger.

  14. #14
    Senior Member brewski053's Avatar
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    TRAINING

    Day 1 Back, Traps

    Deadlifts (SLDL or Sumo)
    1 warmup 12
    3 x 8,7,6
    Wide Grip Chins (weighted)
    3 x 8,7,6
    Bentover BB Rows or Single DB Row
    3 x 8,7,6
    BB or DB Shrugs
    2 x 8,6
    Cardio

    Day 2 Shoulders, Biceps

    Seated Military Press
    1 warmup 12
    3 x 8,7,6
    DB Side Lat raises
    2 x 8,6
    Machine Reverse flyes
    2 x 8,6
    BB Preacher Curls (standing) or Concen Curl
    3 x 8,7,6
    DB Hammer Curls or Reverse Curl
    3 x 8,7,6
    Cardio


    Day 3 OFF

    Day 4 Chest, Triceps

    Flat BB Press
    1 warmup 12
    3 x 8,7,6
    Incline DB Press
    3 x 8,7,6
    Flat DB Flyes or High Cable Crossovers
    3 x 8,7,6

    Dips or Close Grip BB Press or Skull Crushers
    3 x 8,7,6
    Cable Pressdowns or Kickbacks
    3 x 8,7,6
    Cardio

    Day 5 LEGS!

    Squats or High foot position leg presses
    1 warmup 12
    3x 8,7,6
    Seated Calf Raises
    3 x 8,7,6
    Leg Extensions (rotate with DB Lunges)
    3 x 8,7,6
    Leg Curl
    2x 8,6

    Day 6 OFF

    Day 7 OFF



    thats just how i would change the reps and exercises. I dont like shoulders and bi's tho just my personal preference....
    Last edited by brewski053; 08-03-2005 at 01:12 PM.
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  15. #15
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brewski053
    Wide Grip Chins (weighted)

    Don't do wide grip chins. Ever.

    Normal, comfortable width is better for muscular development and safer.

    The journal / I live here.

    If I were to start from scratch as a young 13 year old again, I would do every press, squat, and perhaps deadlifts, for my entire career with chains. -- Dan John

  16. #16

  17. #17
    Senior Member brewski053's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash
    Don't do wide grip chins. Ever.

    Normal, comfortable width is better for muscular development and safer.
    i just left that one was is....
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  18. #18
    Senior Member Sidior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian Crippler
    What's with all these weird splits? Shoulders and bi's?

    Anyways, why not try an upper/lower? I found my best gains with that routine by far... God knows why I'm doing something loserific right now.
    nothing wrong with shoulders and bis, I usually run a 4 day split
    Day 1: Chest and abs(sometimes heh)
    Day 2: Back and tris
    Day 3: Shoulders and bis
    Day 4: Legs and traps
    day off

    seems to work well for me
    PRs: 655/525/645 = 1825 Total
    Meet PRs: Bench Only 525

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  19. #19
    Senior Member Doobs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitnessfreak
    ...According to my strength training instructor who has a PHD in exercise science...
    You don't need no f-in PHD for this, it's not that complicated. Ya gotta eat more if you're not gaining weight. I don't like Bis the day after back, and I'd cut a little volume like others said. As far as reps goes, 4-6 is fine for size.

  20. #20
    Wannabebig Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doobs
    You don't need no f-in PHD for this, it's not that complicated. Ya gotta eat more if you're not gaining weight. I don't like Bis the day after back, and I'd cut a little volume like others said. As far as reps goes, 4-6 is fine for size.
    LOL...I think that was off topic I was just explaining a different concept not related to the origional note.


    Jeepster - I think you should post your diet cause it definetly is a pretty big issue. Although you think you might have it "in order" it might not be coordinated to match your program (your burning a lot of calories!!)

    Ditto.. on the wide grip chins. I still wonder why some cable machines have those big wide grip handles...just ignore them and do normal confortable grips.

  21. #21
    Wannabebig Member
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    if i were to use this routine, but switch to back/bi traps/shoulder... would this setup be optimal?

    monday back bi
    tues chest tri
    wed off
    thurs traps shoulder
    fri leg


    if i were to do deads on monday and sldls on fri, is this enough space in between to let my hammies recover? also, shrugs target traps correct? if thats so, currently im doin back/bi/traps and chest/tri/shoulders. im wondering if it would be beneficial to add another day in.

  22. #22
    Just watch me ... Built's Avatar
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    Recovery for hammies from deads to sldls is fine.

    Your traps will get another little hit from SLDLs. I'd leave it alone.

  23. #23
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    Jeepster- I had a routine similar to yours when I started, and everyone told me I had too much volume and I needed to stick to the lifts that would put size on me the best and go really heavy.
    Here is the split I decided on:

    Chest/tris
    flat bench 3sets 8-12reps
    Incline (rotate weekly with decline)
    Dips
    Skull crushers/close grip bench
    Seated Tri Extentions

    Legs/abs
    Sqauts 3sets 8-12 reps
    Leg press
    Lunges
    seated calf raises
    1 legged standing calf raises
    weighted decline crunches
    cable crunches/oblique cable crunches


    Back/bis
    Deads 3sets 8-12reps
    pullups (rotated with negative pullups every week)
    T-bar or bent over row
    Seated Row
    Standing BB curls
    Concentration DB curls

    Currently shoulders are on their own day because i dont feel right about mixing them in anywhere else.
    Seated DB presses or Arnold presses
    Side laterals
    Reverse flys
    BB shrugs

    I take 2 days off out of 7 purposely spacing out squats away from deads and shoulders away from chest/tris.

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