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Thread: New to powerlifting

  1. #1
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    New to powerlifting

    After a long hard cut its time to put that strength back on and then some, Ill be placing most of my emphasis on strength with hypertrophy coming in a close second... uh duh ? ok so just wanted to get the opinions on my template I plan on starting this weekend.. also I throw in a little cardio after each training session about 15-20 minutes nothing to strenuous. Off days maybe a little longer jogging sessions or cardio equipment rotated with intervals on some days usually about 10 100m sprints, will try and incorporate different sled dragging techniques soon... I know cardio is kind of counterproductive but I will compensate with enough food and will limit it if I feel that it is halting my progress...

    Day 1 Max effort upper body

    Close Grip Bench Press: (using the maximal effort method): Start with a light weight and work up in weight using sets of three reps. When three reps become difficult drop the reps to one and keep increasing the weight until a one rep max is reached.

    Barbell Triceps Extensions: 6 sets of 5 to 8 reps

    One Arm Dumbbell Presses: 4 sets of 10 reps

    Barbell Rows: 4 sets of 6 reps

    Day 2 Max effort Lower body

    Good mornings/ or possibly front squats (using the maximal effort method): Start with a light weight and work up in weight using sets of three reps. When three reps becomes difficult drop the reps to one and keep increasing the weight until a one rep max is reached.

    Close stance low box squats: 4 to 5 sets of 5 reps

    Pull throughs: 4 to 5 sets of 8 reps

    Hanging Leg Raises: 6 sets of 6 to 8 reps

    Day 3 Dynamic effort upper body

    Bench Press: (using the dynamic effort method): warm up to a weight that is 60 to 70 percent of your current one rep max. Perform 8 sets of 3 reps in an explosive fashion using three different grips. Rest only 1 minute between sets)

    Dumbbell Triceps Extensions: 6 to 8 sets of 10 reps

    Pushdowns: 3 sets of 10 reps

    Rear Deltoid Dumbbell Raises: 3 sets of 10 reps

    Dumbbell Rows: 5 sets of 8 reps

    Day 4 Dyanmic effort lower body

    Box Squats: (using the dynamic effort method): warm up to a weight that is 60 to 70 percent of your current one rep max. Perform 8 sets of 2 reps in an explosive fashion. Rest only 1 minute between sets)

    Lunges: 5 sets of 5 reps each leg

    Pull throughs: 5 sets of 5 to 8 reps

    Pull Down Abs: 5 sets of 6 to 8 reps

    thoughts.... changes?

  2. #2
    Back in business WBBIRL's Avatar
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    I really dont see any back work in there, I would suggest deadlifting and or SLDLing. I would also can the cardio, up your protein intake to about 2g per lb of bodyweight and increase cals to about 120-125% of your maintance calories.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    I think what you have looks fine. You may find that you need to cut some of the volume (I would...).

    Quote Originally Posted by WBBIRL
    I really dont see any back work in there, I would suggest deadlifting and or SLDLing.
    He's doing rows and good mornings. Where are you looking?

  4. #4
    Senior Member debussy's Avatar
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    Yeah looks pretty solid. Volume might be too high... but thats individual. The ME exercise usually takes a lot out of you, I'm only able to do 2 assistance exercises afterwards. Back work looks ok. Are you going to be rotating ME exercises? Either you didn't mention that or maybe I don't know how to read.

    Oh yeah... I would do deadlifts once in a while just for practice (nothing too heavy).
    Last edited by debussy; 08-25-2005 at 07:11 PM.

  5. #5
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    Do you know your weak points?
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
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    Quote Originally Posted by debussy
    Yeah looks pretty solid. Volume might be too high... but thats individual. The ME exercise usually takes a lot out of you, I'm only able to do 2 assistance exercises afterwards. Back work looks ok. Are you going to be rotating ME exercises? Either you didn't mention that or maybe I don't know how to read.

    Oh yeah... I would do deadlifts once in a while just for practice (nothing too heavy).
    rotating me every 3-4 weeks ya thinking about lowering volume a bit...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Stagg
    Do you know your weak points?
    weak points = hammies and triceps... well biceps to

  8. #8
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Are you peaking for a meet? Otherwise I'm not so sure I'd be working with triples and singles for maxes. 4-6 might be a better working rep range for long-term strength development.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

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  9. #9
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    Well - I can share what I've learned trainig this way. You have to take it with a bit of a grain of salt, since I've not been as consistant as I should have been over the last few years, but I think I've figured a couple of things out.

    Don't get too hung up on the ME day being to a 1RM. As PMDL says, it might be a good idea to do 4-6RMs (or not even RMs). Personally, I like going over 90%, so I don't do much in that range, but I do think it might be right for you. Play around with it.

    Deadlift. Trust me. Not deadlifting to improve my deadlift had the opposite effect. At a minimum, do cycles of speed/form work on your DE squat days, and I would do at least 25% of my ME work on deads.

    Volume looks OK. You'll need to play around with what works for you, but I've found more volume = good. When I'm in condition to get more volume in, I tend to be making better progress on my main lifts. I'm sure there is a point of diminishing returns.

    I would not do low box squats as supplemental or assistance work. If you want to do squats in that spot, ditch the box. I also think you'll have a tough time doing a 1RM on a front squat, then trying to squat for several sets of 5 - you may want to rethink that. Your supplemental and assistance stuff should be to bring up what's weak. if that's your hamstrings or PC, then do SLDL, RDL, good mornings, etc.

    Listen to your body. If you feel beat down, don't want to train, etc. on an ME day - go to the gym, but don't do the primary lift. Do some light assistance/supplemental stuff, maybe something new, make it fun - but back it down a notch. Not doing that ended up with me taking long periods of time off because I get burned out from training.

    Have fun and experiment. That's a big key, along with working hard.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
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    so instead of working up in tripples and singles you guys would reccomend working with reps of 4-6? so do you recommend just working with a percentage of my max and hitting x amount of sets lets just say maybe 3 sets of 4-6 until I hit the top end of the rep range with all 3 sets of 6 then increase in weight.... and would you still recommend rotating the max effort lifts every so often?

  11. #11
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    Play around with it. Maybe work up to a set of 5 week one, 3 week 2, then a single week 3, then change the lift and do it again. Or do sets of 4-6 for 3 weeks, then change the lift and do triples for three weeks. Or you could work up to a max single, then do a couple of down sets at a lower percentage. You'll learn what works best for you.

    If you are working up close to a 1 or 3RM then yes, rotate the lifts at least every 3 weeks. Higher reps you can probably keep the same lift for longer, but you might want to change it anyway.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
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    Senior Member Manveet's Avatar
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    Just to add in my .02$

    A very good link on 5X5
    http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=375215

    Here's the program (more info on it can be obtained through the link)

    CORE DESCRIPTION

    Volume Phase 4 weeks
    Deloading Period 1 week
    Intensity Phase 4 weeks

    Mon......Volume Phase...........................................De load/Intensity Phase
    Squat.......5x5................................... ..............................3x3
    Bench.......1x5................................... ..............................1x3
    Row.........1x5................................... ...............................1x3

    Wed......Volume Phase...........................................De load/Intensity Phase
    Squat.......5x5 with 15-20% less than Monday.................drop this lift
    Deadlift.....5x5.................................. ...............................3x3
    Military......5x5................................. ................................3x3
    Pullups.......5x5................................. ...............................3x3

    Fri.........Volume Phase...........................................De load/Intensity Phase
    Squat........1x5.................................. ..............................1x3
    Bench........5x5.................................. .............................3x3
    Row...........5x5................................. ..............................3x3

    *5x5 & 3x3 = warm up to working set weight
    **1x5 & 1x3 = pyramid weights through 5x5 or 3x3 with the final set being target set weight


    I even have a copy of the original program outlined by Bill Starr. It's so ridiculously simple it's not even funny.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manveet

    I even have a copy of the original program outlined by Bill Starr. It's so ridiculously simple it's not even funny.

    Usually that's the case when it comes to old school power training.

    Too many people jump into Westside/conjugate stuff before they're ready. They're simply not strong enough to utilize the speed stuff, which I've discovered myself in regards to squatting, and I'm nearing a 500 raw squat.

    I'm not saying this is necessarily the case with you, Stephen, you're a fairly experienced lifter. I would spend at least 12 or 24 weeks doing a 5x5 or something similar, though. Get used to heavy weights regularly. Start working on speed in that you focus on fast concentric phases of lifts. Determine whether or not speed is a weakness.

    I had a client who was a fairly experienced lifter, and naturally very fast, although not particularly strong. After a while it became clear that he wasn't going to get much faster. When we switched over to doing a rep day instead of a dynamic effort day three weeks out of four he started gaining better.
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    thanks for the advice, taking all things into consideration I'm expirimenting and wil see what works for me, instead of working up to 3rm 1rm I figure id make the core max exercises some variation and just fo 5x5 for example bench 5x5, low box squat 5x5, etc.... took the intensity down and will load back up, then using supplemental exercises to bring up the weak points so will hit the tricep extensions and cgbp hard and will work on the posterior chain with some gm's (still working on getting the weights with this) and pull throughs. As far as speed goes I think that is something I lack so I will do some speed work on the lighter/dynamic days with box squats and benching, and up the reps on the supplemental/accessory work.

  15. #15
    Big Yoke GoHeavyLifter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryuage
    weak points = hammies and triceps... well biceps to
    one advice:

    in PL'ing never think in terms of musclegroups. you always have to think in lifts. so weak points can be technique/ sticking points/ grip problems/ lack of core-strength...
    for a beginner in PL'ing that's the biggest problem, to detect your weak points and correctly work on them.


    hope it helps, GHL
    Last edited by GoHeavyLifter; 08-29-2005 at 04:50 AM.

  16. #16
    *412* AKraut's Avatar
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    I definitely suggest adding in a glute ham raise. My deadlift went right up as I got stronger doing GHRs as my hamstrings were not nearly as strong as I thought they were.

    I would also look to do some shrugs or some type of grip work since you aren't deadlifting, I know when I did Westside for 8-weeks and didn't deadlift my grip wasn't where I wanted it.

  17. #17
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    my grip isnt really a problem although I will be incorporating deads and rack deads also I am looking for a viable way to do ghr's in my gym using some type of ghetto setup as I dont have access to the actual machine.. for now Im using cable pull throughs

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    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    I'm doing something based on the Starr/Pendlay/MadCow 5x5 myself, pretty much after coming to the same conclusions as Borris...I was benefitting more from basic progressive-overload rep work than I was from either speed-type work or typical ME work.

    Not to say that those methods weren't working, but the gains at this point are noticable more pronounced.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

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  19. #19
    I wannabebig!
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    when you guys say rep work are you referring to repetition method rather then speed/dynamic type work?

  20. #20
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    Not quite. I was referring to more of a Westside repetition method, as it is thought of, PowerMajt was referring to a different style of lifting (non-Westside), although they're not all that different. The repetition could also be thought of as using quite light weight and just totally repping out, trying for 10-15 reps.

    Here's what I've been doing on my bench: I do my normal ME work to a heavy single or triple. Then on my DE it looks like this (all with a flat BB Bench Press):

    Week 1: 225x10, 225x10, 225x10
    Week 2: 225x11, 225x11, 225x11
    Week 3: 225x12, 225x12, 225x12
    Week 4: Traditional DE Benching: 8x3 @ 50-60% (whatever I feel like, with bands/chains if I feel like it)
    Week 5: 235x10, 235x10, 235x10
    Week 6: 235x11, 235x11, 235x11
    And so on...

    PowerMajt is looking at something more like this (assuming he hits a lift once per week, some of these protocols are a little more complicated):

    Week 1: 225x5, 225x5, 225x5, 225x5, 225x5
    Week 2: 230x5, 230x5, 230x5, 230x5, 230x5
    Week 3: 235x5, 235x5, 235x5, 235x5, 235x5
    And so on...

    -Eventually he'd do some other things, but that's the thrust.

    I've had a lot of success using entirely that type of program (PowerMajt's) and I'm having success with what I'm doing now. I've also used a 3x5 or 5x5 as one of my accessory exercises. For example, today I'll be doing something like this for my DE Squat Day:

    Parallel Box Squats (DE): 8x2 @ 50% <- I haven't done DE Squats in a few months, so this will be an adventure.

    Low Box Squats: 275x3 (warm-up), 315x5, 315x5, 315x5 (this will be fairly heavy after so much squatting and given that it's low)

    Other accessory work...
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  21. #21
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PowerManDL
    I'm doing something based on the Starr/Pendlay/MadCow 5x5 myself, pretty much after coming to the same conclusions as Borris...I was benefitting more from basic progressive-overload rep work than I was from either speed-type work or typical ME work.

    Not to say that those methods weren't working, but the gains at this point are noticable more pronounced.

    Matt, what's your outline look like? I'm going to give 5x5 a try and looking to find some variations.
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    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    It's based on a mod of the typical 5x5 program that I saw from Glenn Pendlay, though I further jury-rigged it for my specific goals.

    Manveet posted the workout above, which is how I'd recommend starting it out, but here's how I'm working it:

    Monday -

    Squats 5x5, flat weight (as Borris noted above)
    Row to a 5RM
    Press to a 5RM

    Wednesday -

    DL, periodized (I've got a 6 week cycle including speed work that I'm using)
    OH Press, 5x5, flat weight
    Pullups, 5x5, flat weight

    Friday -

    Squats to a 5RM
    Row, 5x5, flat weight
    Press, 5x5, flat weight

    Additionally, I throw in work for arms, shoulders, calves, some cleans and shrugs, and a little cardio either on off days or as extra workouts as time permits.

    As noted in the above post, this will eventually move to a 3x3 phase. I don't have any idea when, as that's going to depend entirely on when the progress stops on this phase. I'm also being very liberal with skipping the squat work when the deadlift cycle hits the higher weights and volumes.

    It's a little tricky to manage as the deadlift work moves on its own cycle, but so far things are working out nicely.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

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  23. #23
    Senior Member Manveet's Avatar
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    Some good information in this thread, I thought I'd add some more.

    Here's Bill Starr's original routine:

    Monday (Heavy Day)

    Power Clean: 5x5 (work up to 5RM)

    Bench: 5X5 (work up to 5RM)

    Squat: 5x5 (work up to 5RM)


    Wednesday (Light Day 80%)

    Power Clean: 5X5 (work up to 80% 5RM)

    Squat: 5X5 ""

    Bench: 5X5 ""


    Friday (Medium Day 90%)

    Power Clean: 5X5 (work up to 90%5RM)

    Squat: 5X5 ""

    Bench: 5X5""


    That's pretty much it right there. If anyone cares I can probably even post his advanced routine.
    Last edited by Manveet; 09-01-2005 at 10:32 AM.
    "It is often said, mainly by the "no-contests", that although there is no positive evidence for the existence of God, nor is there evidence against his existence. So it is best to keep an open mind and be agnostic. At first sight that seems an unassailable position, at least in the weak sense of Pascal's wager. But on second thought it seems a cop-out, because the same could be said of Father Christmas and tooth fairies. There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?"

    Richard Dawkins


    "Out of all of the sects in the world, we notice an uncanny coincidence: the overwhelming majority just happen to choose the one that their parents belong to. Not the sect that has the best evidence in its favour, the best miracles, the best moral code, the best cathedral, the best stained glass, the best music: when it comes to choosing from the smorgasbord of available religions, their potential virtues seem to count for nothing, compared to the matter of heredity. This is an unmistakable fact; nobody could seriously deny it. Yet people with full knowledge of the arbitrary nature of this heredity, somehow manage to go on believing in their religion, often with such fanaticism that they are prepared to murder people who follow a different one."


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  24. #24
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    [QUOTE=AKraut]I definitely suggest adding in a glute ham raise. My deadlift went right up as I got stronger doing GHRs as my hamstrings were not nearly as strong as I thought they were.

    i'd love to do GHRs too, but my gym doesn't have the apparatus. i know back extensions are similar, but do they add to your squat/dead as much?
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  25. #25
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manveet
    If anyone cares I can probably even post his advanced routine.
    Please do.
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