The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    Westside Questions

    Some Q's for the Plers around...

    Are speed squats an acceptable subsitute for box squats. I'll be doing 10 sets of 2 on the DE day. Should the % of 1RM be altered if not using the box?

    For speed benches, I'll be doing 10x3 at 60%. Should I increase the weight a bit each week, or hold it?

    Speed benches again... I'm going to vary my grip, How wide is wide, and how narrow is narrow? (Mid grip will be my normal benching grip, ring finger on ring.) My normal close grip is index finger just on the edge of the knurling.

    ME days - any ryme or reason to how you pick the lifts, and do you use the actual core lifts at all, or do you stick with variants?
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

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  3. #2
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Re: Westside Questions

    Originally posted by Paul Stagg
    Some Q's for the Plers around...

    Are speed squats an acceptable subsitute for box squats. I'll be doing 10 sets of 2 on the DE day. Should the % of 1RM be altered if not using the box?


    I rarely do box squats because of equipment in my gym. What I do is pause squats. Seems to have the same general effect.

    For speed benches, I'll be doing 10x3 at 60%. Should I increase the weight a bit each week, or hold it?


    That depends. I keep the percentage lower, for two reasons: first, I don't use a shirt, so speed off the start is critical. Two, I find that increasing the weight lends to a drop in speed. This is one area where progression needs to take a back seat, unless you can keep the bar speed high.

    Speed benches again... I'm going to vary my grip, How wide is wide, and how narrow is narrow? (Mid grip will be my normal benching grip, ring finger on ring.) My normal close grip is index finger just on the edge of the knurling.


    My rule of thumb is pinky, ring finger, index finger. On the power ring, that is. Others may do it differently.

    ME days - any ryme or reason to how you pick the lifts, and do you use the actual core lifts at all, or do you stick with variants?


    I normally try to keep them close to the lift I want to improve-- if I want to work on the squat, I'll do a squat variant, or a dead variant for the pull. Good mornings I don't use nearly so much, but they're nice on occasion. For the BP, its pretty much random, though a weakness in a specific part can affect my decision.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  4. #3
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    Ace - I like pause squats.

    3 second pause?

    I'll be lifting raw, so the speed off the chest is crucial. I'll stick with the 60%.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

  5. #4
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Yah, 3 seconds sounds good. Westside wants you to relax your muscles at the bottom, but from what I've been reading, a static-dynamic approach might be better for speed-strength anyway.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  6. #5
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    Other Q's

    No glute ham raise or reverse hyper at my gym.

    I might be able to make the GHR work on a reagular hyperextension bench, but I'm not sure... it might be hard on the knees.

    Both are in Tate's 9 week workout.

    What would you suggest as substitutes?
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

  7. #6
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Anything that will work the posterior chain.

    I have a reverse hyper, but in that place I've used Romaninan DL's, pull throughs, and even deadlifts on a few occasions.

    The trick is to keep the reps higher and the weight lighter.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  8. #7
    King Nothing ericg's Avatar
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    Just wanted to share some info with you guys....

    The link below has an illustration of how to perform GHR's with no equipment (3/4 of the way down the page), I have never tried them so I am not sure how effective they are.

    http://www.testosterone.net/articles/166rene.html

    Another note is about the pause squats, I asked a question in another thread about relaxing the muscles during the pause, I thought I would share a piece of an article from Dr. Squat....

    "........Myth #1: Squats are bad for the knees.

    Just as calluses build up on the hands with the application of stress, ligaments, tendons and other connective tissues thicken in response to the stress imposed upon the joints during weight training. Also, strengthening the muscles that move the knee joint improves its stability, and thereís some evidence that even the portion of the bone into which the tendons insert becomes stronger, further improving the jointís integrity.

    Relaxing the muscles while in a rock-bottom position is improper and hazardous. The relaxed muscles allow the knee joint to separate slightly, placing the ligaments and cartilage under stress that may exceed their tensile strength. While proper stress produces adaptation, overly stressful exercise can cause breakdown of bodily tissue................."

    The entire article can be found here:
    http://www.drsquat.com/articles/i_ma...ow_diddley.htm
    Current Stats --------------- Training Goals: Improve athletic conditioning.
    Squat - 305lbs - 1/23/06 ----- 335
    Deadlift - 415lbs - 2/4/06 ---- 435
    Bench - 90s*7 ----------------- 100s*5
    Weight - 208 ------------------ 190
    Height - 5'10"

    My Journal|My Routine|My FitDay
    WBBB|"Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up" - Thomas Edison

  9. #8
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    That has to do with free weight squats.

    Westside promotes box squatting. Releasing the glutes, hams, and hips while resting on the box doesn't put any added stress on the knees. Additionally, the weight used is so low relative to a 1RM that it isn't heavy enough to cause any problems.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  10. #9
    King Nothing ericg's Avatar
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    Cool, thanks!!
    Current Stats --------------- Training Goals: Improve athletic conditioning.
    Squat - 305lbs - 1/23/06 ----- 335
    Deadlift - 415lbs - 2/4/06 ---- 435
    Bench - 90s*7 ----------------- 100s*5
    Weight - 208 ------------------ 190
    Height - 5'10"

    My Journal|My Routine|My FitDay
    WBBB|"Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up" - Thomas Edison

  11. #10
    Gaglione Strength Chris Rodgers's Avatar
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    Speed squats- I either read or saw on the video that Louie suggests doing more sets if you are not using the box. Say if you were gonna do 9 doubles on the box, you'd do 12 sets of speed squats.


    Speed benches- I usually see 60% mentioned when most guys talk about it. I've been using 60% of my expected max for the past few weeks and speed doesn't seem to be an issue. I'll be maxing raw as well.


    Speed benches- I use different grips from Power. I use my close-grip bench grip for close, a few inches in from bench grip for medium and a little wider than bench grip for wide.


    As far as ME days, I kind of did a weird approach to mine. As you may have noticed, my routine was a bit opposite what those guys do. Most of the Westsiders are built to squat/bench, where I am a better puller and actually focused way more on pulling than they do. It worked a ton for my pull, but only managed to gain 20 lbs on the squat(which I'm not complaining about). I would definitely do exercises you think would have a direct affect on what you want to work on. Goodmornings are always a good choice, I prefer heavy pulling too, not sure what you would substitute a max box squat with, perhaps another squat variation. For bench, I love floor presses, if you can do board presses, I even did inclines and close-grip for ME days.


    Good luck with it!

    Westsiiiiiiiiiidddddeeeee!!!!!!!!!!
    Best Meet Lifts(Raw w/wraps):
    @165- 435 SQ 270 BE 560 DL.....1255 total
    @181- 515 SQ 295 BE 570 DL.....1375 total
    Best Meet Lifts(Multi-ply):
    @148- 575 SQ 315 BE 515 DL.....1400 total
    @165- 680 SQ 380 BE 540 DL.....1555 total
    @181- 700 SQ 375 BE 535 DL.....1605 total
    Best Gym Lifts(Raw w/wraps)
    515 SQ 302.5 BE 585 DL

  12. #11
    Moderator Adam's Avatar
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    Re: Westside Questions

    Are speed squats an acceptable subsitute for box squats. I'll be doing 10 sets of 2 on the DE day. Should the % of 1RM be altered if not using the box?

    Try to get a box if possible. If you have to go without one I would advise keeping the sets the same and percents the same too.


    For speed benches, I'll be doing 10x3 at 60%. Should I increase the weight a bit each week, or hold it?

    You only increase weight on speed days after you have a new max. If you want you could wave your days with 50,55,60%.


    Speed benches again... I'm going to vary my grip, How wide is wide, and how narrow is narrow? (Mid grip will be my normal benching grip, ring finger on ring.) My normal close grip is index finger just on the edge of the knurling.

    Since you are going raw your sets should be diveded into different grips. 3 sets of close (pointer touching smooth) 3 sets 2 inches wider then that and another 3 sets with 4 inches out from the smooth.


    ME days - any ryme or reason to how you pick the lifts, and do you use the actual core lifts at all, or do you stick with variants?

    For ME days on the squat deadlift workout you should be concentrating on good mornings. About 60%good ams, 20%squats 20%deadlifts.
    When about 6 weeks out from the meet it helps alot to do 6 sinlges on speed deadlifts with about 50% of your max with 15 second rests.

    Instead of ghr you can do pull thrus, dimel deads, good ams, regular hypers. One lift that helped my deadlift a ton was zerchers. There realy good for your squat too.
    Best Meet @ Lifts@181:...............Best gym lifts
    Squat...- 403..........................Squat....- 395 w/belt
    Bench...- 303..........................Bench....- 300....Paused in meet - 281
    Deadlift.- 503.....Unofficial 513...Deadlift..- 490
    Total....- 1,203...IPF Class II......All done raw, Touch'n go bench

    "Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly" Robert F. Kennedy

    "A man can fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he gives up"

    "However beautiful the strategy you should occasionally look at the results" John Berardi

    Powerlifting Westside Style

  13. #12
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Yeah, as you can tell, I don't take the orthodox Westside approach. What I listed came from my personal experience playing with it.

    I use Dave and Louie as a starting point, but I personally modify it for my personal needs. I'd suggest anyone else using it do the same.

    Latty's done the same, modifying it to emphasize the DL.

    That's Westside's major flaw-- it can build a strong squatter, or a strong puller, but rarely both in equal proportion, despite their claims.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  14. #13
    Wannabebig Member
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    The whole reason box squats are used is to break up the eccentric and concenrtic movements of the squat.

    using the box squat builds the muscles in such a way that the can trigger quicker than normal providing explosive strength.

    can you sneak a milk crate into the gym?
    can you squat onto a flat bench?


    as for the speed bench.......use whatever percentage gives you the best speed.

    you should complete the three reps within 3 seconds......if not lower the weight.

    If you have a problem with not beating 3 seconds on some of the grips.....focus on the slow grips for a while.

    I have a slow wide grip. so 4 of the grips will be wide (i only do 8 sets though)

  15. #14
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Originally posted by geek
    The whole reason box squats are used is to break up the eccentric and concenrtic movements of the squat.

    using the box squat builds the muscles in such a way that the can trigger quicker than normal providing explosive strength.
    The more I think about this, the less it makes sense from a competitive standpoint.

    It would be a lot more "specific" to do pause squats, because that's how its done in competition. Exploding out of a paused bottom would seem to be more effective than exploding off a box, for competition purposes.

    I'll do some checking and get back on this tomorrow.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  16. #15
    Wannabebig Member
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    At the bottom of a pause squat people usually hold on with muscles.....boxs make you go from NO to GO as quick as you can......other wise you wont get off the box.

    why would westside use and advocate them if they didnt work?

  17. #16
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    The issue is not whether Westside does it.

    The issue is whether it works. Granted, Westside is based on more practical science than most things out there, and I'm a lot more likely to listen to what they have to say than others. But at the same time, if I don't see an explanation as to why or how, or at least evidence that it works, I'm not buying it.

    Like I said, I'll look into it and see. It seems likely that teaching those muscles to be explosive would carry over into the comp. movement.

    Both would probably be good to do at various stages.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  18. #17
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    I'm not sure it matters all that much, as long as the speed is there.

    Although I am going to try to get a box.

    I think there are those Reebok steps at my gym, and no one uses them, so I should be able to construct a box.

    I'd certainly have no trouble taking a box with me (my gym is hardcore (tm)), I was just trying to aviod the trip to the lumber yard.

    I think my box will be about 12 inches high, sound about right?

    I also need to make an 8 inch box for low box squats.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

  19. #18
    Canadian
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    I got a question here guys. Instead of using a box, could you just set the pins pn the power cage to a certain depth, resting the bar on the pins and exploding upwards?
    "Discipline is never an end itself, only a means to an end." - Robert Fripp

  20. #19
    Moderator Adam's Avatar
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    Its not as good mds becuase the weight is transfered through to the pins and off your body
    Paul, I use a 11" box and im 5'7 so a 12 should be good for you.
    Best Meet @ Lifts@181:...............Best gym lifts
    Squat...- 403..........................Squat....- 395 w/belt
    Bench...- 303..........................Bench....- 300....Paused in meet - 281
    Deadlift.- 503.....Unofficial 513...Deadlift..- 490
    Total....- 1,203...IPF Class II......All done raw, Touch'n go bench

    "Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly" Robert F. Kennedy

    "A man can fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he gives up"

    "However beautiful the strategy you should occasionally look at the results" John Berardi

    Powerlifting Westside Style

  21. #20
    Gaglione Strength Chris Rodgers's Avatar
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    I'm 5'7" and my box is just below 12". Depends on your build. You'd have to sit on it to know.
    Best Meet Lifts(Raw w/wraps):
    @165- 435 SQ 270 BE 560 DL.....1255 total
    @181- 515 SQ 295 BE 570 DL.....1375 total
    Best Meet Lifts(Multi-ply):
    @148- 575 SQ 315 BE 515 DL.....1400 total
    @165- 680 SQ 380 BE 540 DL.....1555 total
    @181- 700 SQ 375 BE 535 DL.....1605 total
    Best Gym Lifts(Raw w/wraps)
    515 SQ 302.5 BE 585 DL

  22. #21
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    I was running around my house with a tape measure sitting on everything i could find to see what the height should be (the dog was pissed.)... I came up with about 12 inches as a little lower than competition depth.

    For low box squats, I'll have to use an 8 or 9 inch box.

    DE squat is tonight, so I'll make due with what's in the gym.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
    "You're wrong, and I have a completely irrelevant pubmed abstract that may or may not say so." - Belial
    I has a blog.
    I has a facebook.

  23. #22
    Bespoke Super Mod
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    Ar present I squat on a box with a step on top for DE day and that comes to about 10" or so, which is just right for me. I will be using a box around about 6" when I max on the chosen ME days.
    "A + B + C = Success if, A = Hard Work, B = Hard Play, C = Keeping your mouth shut" -Albert
    Einstein


    I've always gone to the gym with the conviction that I'll be the hardest working mother****er in the joint. Make that your credo, and hope we don't lift at the same place.
    -- Adam Fahy


    "Fran is a double-hard bastard"- Clint Brewer 31/12/02

  24. #23
    Gaglione Strength Chris Rodgers's Avatar
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    Yeah, but you're only 4'11", so that's irrelevant.



    Make sure you move real fast tonight. Once you get out from under the bar, you have about enough time to sip your water and write down your reps and then get back under there. Good luck.
    Best Meet Lifts(Raw w/wraps):
    @165- 435 SQ 270 BE 560 DL.....1255 total
    @181- 515 SQ 295 BE 570 DL.....1375 total
    Best Meet Lifts(Multi-ply):
    @148- 575 SQ 315 BE 515 DL.....1400 total
    @165- 680 SQ 380 BE 540 DL.....1555 total
    @181- 700 SQ 375 BE 535 DL.....1605 total
    Best Gym Lifts(Raw w/wraps)
    515 SQ 302.5 BE 585 DL

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