The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
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    ATF Squats and Knee Wraps

    In the last 2 months I've added 50lbs to my repping ATF squats. Current best is 275 x 8 and it seems to be rising quickly.

    I recently encountered some problems with the muscles / cartilage around my knees and I think this quick progression might be the cause. I've had many experienced people watching my form all the time and they say its good. This problem is nothing major and not painful. It is unnoticable when I do squats, I can only feel a slight popping on my lower quad when I lift my heel to my ass.

    Anyways, I did squats with knee wraps today and they felt absolutely great. I was able to match my old PR and went much deeper on every rep.

    I'm just concerned this could effect leg development. What do knee wraps take away from muscle-wise? Am I going to see problems further down the road if I keep relying on knee wraps? I was only using them on the 3 of 7 sets (the heavy ones).

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Do you bounce at the bottom at all? Do you actually sit on your calves? If so, going ATF IS NOT good for your knee's. Be careful, preserve what you have, and experiment to find the range of motion and form that is most comfortable for your joints. That way you can progress consistently without undue stress on your tendons and ligaments, not to mention possible muscle strains/pulls.
    Last edited by Meat_Head; 10-31-2005 at 06:45 PM.
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  4. #3
    Formerly Nick Hatfield SW's Avatar
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    Or it could be quick progression, as you've stated. Give some lighter sets of 8-10 a chance for about 3 weeks and then try it again. Could be you're not adapting as fast as you'd like.
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  5. #4
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Hatfield
    Or it could be quick progression, as you've stated. Give some lighter sets of 8-10 a chance for about 3 weeks and then try it again. Could be you're not adapting as fast as you'd like.
    Indication that he needs to go easy on his knees, as well as possibly start taking a supplement for his joints(e.g. chondroitin, glucosomine, etc.).
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  6. #5
    Formerly Nick Hatfield SW's Avatar
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  7. #6
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    I do not bounce at the bottom, I also do not pause for very long at the bottom, I come to a controlled stop for approximately 1 second, then I fire back up. I wouldn't say I sit on my calves, my hamstrings do touch the very top of my calves when I am at full depth though.

    I've basically been staying in the 8-10 range for the last 6 months, occasionally I'll dip down to 6-8 reps for a heavy set.

    Glucosomine and other joint suppliments are something I will definately look into.

  8. #7
    Senior Member levronefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
    Do you bounce at the bottom at all? Do you actually sit on your calves? If so, going ATF IS NOT good for your knee's. Be careful, preserve what you have, and experiment to find the range of motion and form that is most comfortable for your joints. That way you can progress consistently without undue stress on your tendons and ligaments, not to mention possible muscle strains/pulls.

    It is perfectly safe to do atg squats....

  9. #8
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by levronefan
    It is perfectly safe to do atg squats....
    Anyone can say that, I'd like to hear you back it up. Tell me how bouncing off your calves, springloading the weight of the bar from your tendons and ligaments immediately to your muscles at their most stretched position is perfectly safe...
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  10. #9
    Senior Member Canadian Crippler's Avatar
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    That's not a proper ATG squat, smarty.
    "I added some db curls with the pink weights for a bit of a burn." - Rookiebldr

    "im assuming the holy (big) 3 are: curls, bench, legs?" - Saggas

    "had a huge ass burn on my triceps while I was doing those kickbacks, so they'll likely be staying with my exercise program." - Zearoth

    "most of my burned calories coming from something called Basal. Wtf does a leaf have to do with any of it?" - Votorx

    "We have a lot of people like that on our campus, all hippies and things, that go around preaching against corporations, jocks, preps, accountants, and anyone else that feels the need to shower more than occasionally." - Shankerr

    "Damn man why are some women just so demonic and evil.. its like you wanna get a stake and mallet and an erection at the same time." - WBBIRL

  11. #10
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Exactly what I stated earlier, but it IS an ATG squat, making his statement a bit ambiguous.
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  12. #11
    Senior Member Canadian Crippler's Avatar
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    Not at all. He said ATG squats are safe. They are, point blank.

    It's the same as saying touching your chest on flat bench press is safe. Is it still safe if you have a .5 second negative and bounce it off your chest with your ass in the air? No... but that doesn't make full ROM on the bench press unsafe.
    "I added some db curls with the pink weights for a bit of a burn." - Rookiebldr

    "im assuming the holy (big) 3 are: curls, bench, legs?" - Saggas

    "had a huge ass burn on my triceps while I was doing those kickbacks, so they'll likely be staying with my exercise program." - Zearoth

    "most of my burned calories coming from something called Basal. Wtf does a leaf have to do with any of it?" - Votorx

    "We have a lot of people like that on our campus, all hippies and things, that go around preaching against corporations, jocks, preps, accountants, and anyone else that feels the need to shower more than occasionally." - Shankerr

    "Damn man why are some women just so demonic and evil.. its like you wanna get a stake and mallet and an erection at the same time." - WBBIRL

  13. #12
    Senior Member AzBboy's Avatar
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    I've read the opposite of what some of you foo dawgs are sayin. Paralel, is in fact the worse for the knees. The knee joint, according to an orthopedic surgeon, is the most unstable at 90 degrees. Add the fact that you can lift a load more weight by going paralal instead of full range squatting and you just increased damage risk. I've squatted ATF my whole life and never once felt any discomfort in the knee whatsoever. I never have and never will go paralal, seems to me like a cop out to all-out squatting.

  14. #13
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzBboy
    I've read the opposite of what some of you foo dawgs are sayin. Paralel, is in fact the worse for the knees. The knee joint, according to an orthopedic surgeon, is the most unstable at 90 degrees. Add the fact that you can lift a load more weight by going paralal instead of full range squatting and you just increased damage risk. I've squatted ATF my whole life and never once felt any discomfort in the knee whatsoever. I never have and never will go paralal, seems to me like a cop out to all-out squatting.
    No one said parallel is better for the knees foo dawg. The problem is with FORM.
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  15. #14
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian Crippler
    Not at all. He said ATG squats are safe. They are, point blank.

    It's the same as saying touching your chest on flat bench press is safe. Is it still safe if you have a .5 second negative and bounce it off your chest with your ass in the air? No... but that doesn't make full ROM on the bench press unsafe.
    I've seen alot of ATG squats, and 80-90% of what I've seen in the gym is asking for a knee injury somewhere along the line. To perform ATG squats in a way that minimizes the likelihood of knee injury involves great lowerbody flexibility, good form, good balance, and good stabilizer strength. If you are deficient in any of those aspects, don't be suprised if you get a knee injury a couple years or even months down the line.

    Same goes for bench press. What do you think is a proper bench press form? Slight arch in the back, elbows in, slow descent, pause at the bottom, and press. What do you see 80-90% of the guys bench pressing in the gym doing? Getting a weight too heavy to handle, dropping it on and bouncing it off their chest, then getting an upright row from the spotter to finish the rep/set. "ATG squats and bench presses are safe" isn't enough as it doesn't imply what I stated above...
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  16. #15
    Senior Member Canadian Crippler's Avatar
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    Why must you be stubborn and complicate something so simple?

    When someone states "X exercise is safe" it is OBVIOUS they are referring to using proper form. No one is going to recommend doing an exercise improperly, so your assumption is negated. Are you gonna tell me I'm wrong to say curls are safe, because I didn't state not to sway and use the lower back? Stop being ridiculous.
    "I added some db curls with the pink weights for a bit of a burn." - Rookiebldr

    "im assuming the holy (big) 3 are: curls, bench, legs?" - Saggas

    "had a huge ass burn on my triceps while I was doing those kickbacks, so they'll likely be staying with my exercise program." - Zearoth

    "most of my burned calories coming from something called Basal. Wtf does a leaf have to do with any of it?" - Votorx

    "We have a lot of people like that on our campus, all hippies and things, that go around preaching against corporations, jocks, preps, accountants, and anyone else that feels the need to shower more than occasionally." - Shankerr

    "Damn man why are some women just so demonic and evil.. its like you wanna get a stake and mallet and an erection at the same time." - WBBIRL

  17. #16
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
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    Whenever someone on here posts ATF squats I just assume it means 4" above parallel.
    Deadlifts are like women, they'll hurt you everytime, but they'll also make you a man. - Me

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    I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

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  18. #17
    King Nothing ericg's Avatar
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    Whenever someone on here posts ATF squats I just assume it means 4" above parallel.
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TOBART
    In the last 2 months I've added 50lbs to my repping ATF squats....Anyways, I did squats with knee wraps today and they felt absolutely great. I was able to match my old PR and went much deeper on every rep...
    Yeah. If someone was doing ATF squats, suddenly adds knee wraps, and squats "much" deeper with them on, their ass must have went through the floor.
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  19. #18
    eater of food dw06wu's Avatar
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    You shouldn't train in powerlifting style knee wraps. They are meant to boost a 1RM while competing. What you are doing is similar to squatting with a squat suit, only to a less extent. Why not drop weight a little? I think the reason your knees don't hurt with the wraps on is because they allow the use of a heavier weight. The time will come when your knees will hurt with the wraps applied. Better to avoid that outcome now by changing up your rep routine or taking a small two week break. If the pain still persists then visit a chiropractor or have a professional critique your form.
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  20. #19
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    Thank you dw06wu. I wasn't sure if these kneewraps were a solution to or just a bandaid to my problem. I'll drop the weight back some next week, maybe do a single set with kneewraps.

    ericg, my wording was bad there. With knee wraps I was getting about 1" more depth, and I was bringing my ass as close to the floor as my body allows (hamstring touching calves) on every rep. I was under the assumption that ATF doesn't actually mean your ass touches the floor at full depth. I'm getting my ass about 5" from the ground with my hamstrings approximately 30 degrees past parallel.

    I'll try and get a video of my squatting sometime soon to show the depth I'm using.

  21. #20
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian Crippler
    Why must you be stubborn and complicate something so simple?

    When someone states "X exercise is safe" it is OBVIOUS they are referring to using proper form. No one is going to recommend doing an exercise improperly, so your assumption is negated. Are you gonna tell me I'm wrong to say curls are safe, because I didn't state not to sway and use the lower back? Stop being ridiculous.
    Safety isn't ridiculous... My whole point was that most people DO NOT use proper form on those exercises, but most of them think they do or at least think their form is good enough. While completely oblivious to their form defects, theystill claim the exercises are safe because of statements like "X exercise is safe". Then they wonder why they made progress for months, then all the sudden lost it all from a joint injury; after all, those exercises are SAFE right?
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  22. #21
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
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    Yeah, if you aren't competing, don't bother with the knee wraps. They aren't really a safety device, but more to aid off the bottom on max squat attempts that you normally couldn't achieve without them.
    Deadlifts are like women, they'll hurt you everytime, but they'll also make you a man. - Me

    Friends don't let friends do dumbell kickbacks. - Me

    ElP is the smartest man in the world. - Gyno Rhino

    A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls. -- Dan Quayle

    If do right, no can defense. -- Mr. Miyagi

    Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey:

    I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

    Is there anything more beautiful than a beautiful, beautiful flamingo, flying across in front of a beautiful sunset? And he's carrying a beautiful rose in his beak, and also he's carrying a very beautiful painting with his feet. And also, you're drunk.

    Current FFFA Enforcer

  23. #22
    Senior Member Canadian Crippler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
    Safety isn't ridiculous... My whole point was that most people DO NOT use proper form on those exercises, but most of them think they do or at least think their form is good enough. While completely oblivious to their form defects, theystill claim the exercises are safe because of statements like "X exercise is safe". Then they wonder why they made progress for months, then all the sudden lost it all from a joint injury; after all, those exercises are SAFE right?
    Can you show me one example of "they" on WBB?
    "I added some db curls with the pink weights for a bit of a burn." - Rookiebldr

    "im assuming the holy (big) 3 are: curls, bench, legs?" - Saggas

    "had a huge ass burn on my triceps while I was doing those kickbacks, so they'll likely be staying with my exercise program." - Zearoth

    "most of my burned calories coming from something called Basal. Wtf does a leaf have to do with any of it?" - Votorx

    "We have a lot of people like that on our campus, all hippies and things, that go around preaching against corporations, jocks, preps, accountants, and anyone else that feels the need to shower more than occasionally." - Shankerr

    "Damn man why are some women just so demonic and evil.. its like you wanna get a stake and mallet and an erection at the same time." - WBBIRL

  24. #23
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
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    Ok, enough nitpick arguments. The exercise is safe, but learning form on the exercise can take months even with a coach that knows what they are doing.

    I'd be conservative estimating 90% of people that squat use horrid form, so one could argue that squats as generally performed on average are dangerous due to lack of proper form. Yet the movement in and of itself when performed properly is not.
    Deadlifts are like women, they'll hurt you everytime, but they'll also make you a man. - Me

    Friends don't let friends do dumbell kickbacks. - Me

    ElP is the smartest man in the world. - Gyno Rhino

    A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls. -- Dan Quayle

    If do right, no can defense. -- Mr. Miyagi

    Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey:

    I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

    Is there anything more beautiful than a beautiful, beautiful flamingo, flying across in front of a beautiful sunset? And he's carrying a beautiful rose in his beak, and also he's carrying a very beautiful painting with his feet. And also, you're drunk.

    Current FFFA Enforcer

  25. #24
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian Crippler
    Can you show me one example of "they" on WBB?
    I wouldn't be suprised if there are a bunch of people on this website who have injuries from improper ATG squat form. Can I point them out to ya? No. That doesn't matter, you only get 2 knees in life, and they happen to be possibly the most injury-prone joints in your body... BE CAREFUL with them.
    Last edited by Meat_Head; 11-02-2005 at 02:52 PM.
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  26. #25
    is way too skinny!
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    I had this problem when I began to squat 185 consistently at first. What I did was take fish oil tablets from Wal-Mart, along with better stretching, and I haven't had any problem since.
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