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Thread: Riots in France

  1. #26
    Wrecker of Homes d'Anconia's Avatar
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    So how difficult do you think it is to evade riot police? I've always had this feeling that if I were in a riot that unless I caught a very unlucky break that I'd never get caught. Just gotta know where the riot police are, what weapons they are using, and where the gas canisters are going. Might help to have your face covered up a little bit too.

    I'm still awaiting the day another big riot occurs in the US, I can't wait. I already missed the chaos in New Orleans...
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  2. #27
    Banned spencerjrus's Avatar
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    I would riot because of the smell alone. Paris is by far the worst smelling city I've ever been to. (including Tijuana)

  3. #28
    Senior Member shootermcgavin7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MM
    The underlying cause? France has a huge immigrant population, but "The Grand Republic" hasn't been able to assimilate these people into its culture. Banning the hijab and not being able to improve stagnant unemployment in the minority Arab/Islamic communities probably hasn't helped, and neither did their initial respose to the rioting.

    The interesting point here is that the job opportunities in France are STILL a lot better than running around Darfur with an AK-47.

  4. #29
    Om. Avocado. MM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shootermcgavin7
    The interesting point here is that the job opportunities in France are STILL a lot better than running around Darfur with an AK-47.
    I don't think most of the French Arabs and Muslims are Sudanese, I think most are Algerian. Your point is well-taken, in a sense, but you can hardly blame people for feeling neglected in the immediate situation and not seeing things in a more universal sense.
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  5. #30
    Senior Member shootermcgavin7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MM
    I don't think most of the French Arabs and Muslims are Sudanese, I think most are Algerian.
    My point was more sarcastic than anything - although Algeria isn't the only source for French muslim immigrants, the Turkish population is also relatively large in Western Europe.

    Sudan was an extreme example of currently emigrating Muslims.

    Your point is well-taken, in a sense, but you can hardly blame people for feeling neglected in the immediate situation and not seeing things in a more universal sense.
    While France (and much of Western Europe) has some misguided policies that result in high unemployment (especially in the 18-30 age group), Western society as a whole has a traditionally/historically/globally low unemployment rate. Admittedly, when I spent my couple years in Europe, it was in the Czech Republic, where I didn't have as much exposure to the poorer Muslim population, although when my brother spend a couple years in Geneva, Switzerland, he had a lot more exposure to it. While I'm not 100% sure of the major underlying cause of unemployment here, my guess would be that it has to do with language and culture barriers typical to first generation immigrant groups (for a parallel, see Hispanic groups in the US currently). Every first generation immigrant group is deathly poor, but their kids usually do better, who have kids that do even better.

    You're right that the long-run is probably irrelevant here, but if you can't speak the language and/or live the culture, you likely will not assimilate there.

    I do agree with the fact that, for all their perceived openness, the French are one of the most intolerant nationalities on the planet.


    However, going back to my original point, if these are 1st generation immigrants, they are probably better off than wherever they left.

  6. #31
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    ^ They say they're 2nd and 3rd.
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  7. #32
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    If I were to give my honest beliefs on this forum I'd be banned, but to summarize it from my staindpoint:

    Blame poverty, lack of education, the federal government, etc.

    Whichever you prefer to get from the mainstream media is your option.
    Take Katrina for example, they stole because they had nothing, alright, so they steal TVs, bicycles, beer, etc. because they were in need of aide?

    This is the same situation, they take this small incident in which no one is to blame except for the 2 teenage morons who attempted to jump an electric fence while breaking the law, and pull the "I'm not White you hate me" card. People buy it, they also decide to use the "I'm poor" and "I'm uneducated" crap on us too. Of course, the mainstream media and everyone else buys it yet again and then all of a sudden we're to blame. Just as the Frenchmen and Women are saying: "France - love it or leave it".

    They don't deserve to live in France, and I hope the military is deployed to completely destroy their homes and towns.
    Last edited by sisk; 11-08-2005 at 09:35 PM.

  8. #33
    Om. Avocado. MM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisk
    If I were to give my honest beliefs on this forum I'd be banned, but to summarize it from my staindpoint:

    Blame poverty, lack of education, the federal government, etc.

    Whichever you prefer to get from the mainstream media is your option.
    Take Katrina for example, they stole because they had nothing, alright, so they steal TVs, bicycles, beer, etc. because they were in need of aide?

    This is the same situation, they take this small incident in which no one is to blame except for the 2 teenage morons who attempted to jump an electric fence while breaking the law, and pull the "I'm not White you hate me" card. People buy it, they also decide to use the "I'm poor" and "I'm uneducated" crap on us too. Of course, the mainstream media and everyone else buys it yet again and then all of a sudden we're to blame. Just as the Frenchmen and Women are saying: "France - love it or leave it".

    They don't deserve to live in France, and I hope the military is deployed to completely destroy their homes and towns.

    I'd use the Socratic method in a humble attempt to bring you to a greater understanding, but I imagine it would just end with me popping a few prozacs and washing it down with Hemlock nectar.

    PS -- Their towns are the towns in France.
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  9. #34
    Om. Avocado. MM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shootermcgavin7
    My point was more sarcastic than anything - although Algeria isn't the only source for French muslim immigrants, the Turkish population is also relatively large in Western Europe.

    Sudan was an extreme example of currently emigrating Muslims.



    While France (and much of Western Europe) has some misguided policies that result in high unemployment (especially in the 18-30 age group), Western society as a whole has a traditionally/historically/globally low unemployment rate. Admittedly, when I spent my couple years in Europe, it was in the Czech Republic, where I didn't have as much exposure to the poorer Muslim population, although when my brother spend a couple years in Geneva, Switzerland, he had a lot more exposure to it. While I'm not 100% sure of the major underlying cause of unemployment here, my guess would be that it has to do with language and culture barriers typical to first generation immigrant groups (for a parallel, see Hispanic groups in the US currently). Every first generation immigrant group is deathly poor, but their kids usually do better, who have kids that do even better.

    You're right that the long-run is probably irrelevant here, but if you can't speak the language and/or live the culture, you likely will not assimilate there.

    I do agree with the fact that, for all their perceived openness, the French are one of the most intolerant nationalities on the planet.


    However, going back to my original point, if these are 1st generation immigrants, they are probably better off than wherever they left.

    I don't disagree with anything that you're saying. I don't think most of those who are rioting are first generation immigrants, but I do think the clash of a conservative culture (Arab) and a uninclusive (relatively) privleged culture has probably had a lot to do with the underlying problems. I will suggest that even if these aren't first generation immigrants, the poverty of the first generation was likely just passed down to the latter generations, even if that generation is now "better off".
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  10. #35
    Senior Member Canadian Crippler's Avatar
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    The underlying problem is deadorant. I'd be angry too if I smelled as bad as the French do and the government wasn't supplying 2 free sticks a day.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MM
    I'd use the Socratic method in a humble attempt to bring you to a greater understanding, but I imagine it would just end with me popping a few prozacs and washing it down with Hemlock nectar.

    PS -- Their towns are the towns in France.
    What's your point.. their towns are in France?

    Of course they are....

    Bring me your almighty understanding

  12. #37
    Banned Praetorian's Avatar
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    Forget it MM, he's 17..

    Anyways, all the problems that are experienced in Central Europe today, steams from the ridiculous open border immigration policies the European countries had in the aftermath of WWII.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Praetorian
    Forget it MM, he's 17..

    Anyways, all the problems that are experienced in Central Europe today, steams from the ridiculous open border immigration policies the European countries had in the aftermath of WWII.

    I knew I'd get that eventually

    What's your point? I'll have the same type of civilized debate as someone who is older. Dismissing me because I'm 17 just shows immaturity and arrogance on your part, sir.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisk
    I knew I'd get that eventually

    What's your point? I'll have the same type of civilized debate as someone who is older. Dismissing me because I'm 17 just shows immaturity and arrogance on your part, sir.
    You right. We should dismiss you because you lack the moral fiber to deadlift.

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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash
    You right. We should dismiss you because you lack the moral fiber to deadlift.

    Can't right now

    I have a broken joint and growth plate in my toe and have been wearing a boot for the last 3 weeks.

  16. #41
    Wrecker of Homes d'Anconia's Avatar
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    IMO I would find it stupid to say that I, if in the place of the French Muslims (who, unless I am mistaken, seem to make up the majority of rioters) I would probably do the same thing. It is an opportunity to force the government to see that your group is unhappy. Might as well take that opportunity, especially if the chances of you getting caught are next to nothing.
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  17. #42
    Too Beaucoup -sin-'s Avatar
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    Eurosocialists need to wake up and stop thinking it is somehow the state's fault Muslims want no part of integrating into Western society. If they don't take serious action now countries like Holland and France are going to end up looking like the Balkans in a few decades.

  18. #43
    Wrecker of Homes d'Anconia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -sin-
    Muslims want no part of integrating into Western society.
    Nailed it bro. You could expect me to go crazy if Muslims tried to make me follow their culture, in this case, and in many cases, I understand where they are coming from.
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  19. #44
    Senior Member IdaMAN's Avatar
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  20. #45
    General of Froot Soldiers TwiloMike's Avatar
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    Disclaimer: my understanding of French national policy is limited to generalizations.

    From what I can tell there is plenty of blame to go around in the French debacle. I can't imagine that stifling socialist policies make it easy for people to move up financially, and from having visited Paris and knowing some French citizens I sympathize with the immigrants who have cards stacked against them before they even hit the French border.

    On the other hand, there is a certain responsibility, imo, on the part of immigrants to integrate. Expecting the State to bend over backwards for immigrants to provide them with jobs, welfare, etc. while they refuse to integrate is both unrealistic and selfish. I'm certain that the mainstream French respond much better to immigrants who bother to learn the language, respct French customs, and play by the rules. This goes for immigrants in general, Muslim and otherwise.
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwiloMike
    Disclaimer: my understanding of French national policy is limited to generalizations.

    From what I can tell there is plenty of blame to go around in the French debacle. I can't imagine that stifling socialist policies make it easy for people to move up financially, and from having visited Paris and knowing some French citizens I sympathize with the immigrants who have cards stacked against them before they even hit the French border.

    On the other hand, there is a certain responsibility, imo, on the part of immigrants to integrate. Expecting the State to bend over backwards for immigrants to provide them with jobs, welfare, etc. while they refuse to integrate is both unrealistic and selfish. I'm certain that the mainstream French respond much better to immigrants who bother to learn the language, respct French customs, and play by the rules. This goes for immigrants in general, Muslim and otherwise.
    Bingo... the only thing I would add is that trying to integrate into a society and culture that spends much of its time and effort to keep you from integrating (those that honestly attempt) causes much depression, frustration and ultimately friction. France has done nothing in the last 50 years to try and help their immigrants to integrate to their society. Which I find ironic since they tend to be a socialist natured country. Canada, where I live tends to have a societal socialism and with all our troubles with our aboriginals I think we do a very good job at helping immigrants to integrate.. much to the discontent of the right thinkers and Ayn Randroids who like to use this as a crutch to blame various societal ills on.

    The problem in France is very deep rooted and one that cannot be fixed overnight with a few apologies from either side. France has a small scale civil uprising and no plan on how to deal with it. What we should all watch with caution is how like countries in Europe are affected both directly and indirectly. It is difficult enough to integrate into a new society but when your culture of birth has values that do not run parallel to your new society, turmoil is definately on the menu.. both internal to the person and external via the environment.
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  22. #47
    General of Froot Soldiers TwiloMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker
    Bingo... the only thing I would add is that trying to integrate into a society and culture that spends much of its time and effort to keep you from integrating (those that honestly attempt) causes much depression, frustration and ultimately friction.
    Full agreement there. There should be government programs to integrate immigrants if immigration is allowed. That said, these should not be indefinitely stretching programs- just enough to get people to a functional state where they can then go out and make a living for themselves.

    France has done nothing in the last 50 years to try and help their immigrants to integrate to their society. Which I find ironic since they tend to be a socialist natured country.
    LOL "tend to be"? They are the Mother of western socialist governments.

    Canada, where I live tends to have a societal socialism and with all our troubles with our aboriginals I think we do a very good job at helping immigrants to integrate.. much to the discontent of the right thinkers and Ayn Randroids who like to use this as a crutch to blame various societal ills on.
    What does Rand have to do with blaming ills on immigrants?
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  23. #48
    Lleu Llaw Gyffes Miker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwiloMike
    What does Rand have to do with blaming ills on immigrants?
    My use of Randroid is a generalization of libertarian thinking.. meaning.. libertarians would never support any sort of effort to help immigrants integrate...

    I'm no fan of Rand.. but that's another thread...lol
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  24. #49
    General of Froot Soldiers TwiloMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker
    My use of Randroid is a generalization of libertarian thinking.. meaning.. libertarians would never support any sort of effort to help immigrants integrate...
    I don't see why libertarians wouldn't help legal immigrants. Legal immigration implies controlled immigration. Perhaps the extreme libertarians don't like immigrants, but there will always be private efforts to help. The country needs fresh blood and there is no denying that.

    I'm no fan of Rand.. but that's another thread...lol
    LOL I gathered as much. I like Rand- a lot of her stances are reserved for superhumans, but she has many points which are invaluable, imo. In terms of immigration and integration there is a personal responsibility that seems to be lacking in many parts of the world among immigrants. I have a deep reluctance to give in response to "I am here and I want/demand a crutch". I am generous, however, with those who ask for help with a bridge to better life after having exhausted means available to them.

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    Last edited by TwiloMike; 11-09-2005 at 01:57 PM.
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  25. #50
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    Nuke the place they smell bad .

    The French are elitists and bigots against anyone not French . Their immigration policy was to throw them in ghettos without any form of plan . Not to mention the " perfect society" has an unemployment rate of over 10 % , immigrants are up to almost 40% .

    The muslims NEED to assimilate into whatever society they are in . You dont flee your country that is in tatters only to get to another country and not change your ways to be succesful . All the while critisizing the country you live in .

    Nuke em ...
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