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  1. #1
    Wrecker of Homes d'Anconia's Avatar
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    Riots in France

    Well it must be due to the fact that I don't have a TV and rarely look at the news but DAMN. I guess it's the 12th night of these riots and the nation hasn't seen this much destruction since WWII.

    I'm still not 100% positive as to why the riots occurred but I believe they said that some minority teenagers accidentally electrocuted themselves while hiding from the police. Don't ask me how that sparks nation-wide riots but it did. Anyway I think it has to do with the general discrimination of government or something to that effect.

    I'm still reading some more on it, am I missing something? Crazy stuff over there.

    Edit: Here's one link to an article that I read, didn't quite explain exactly why the riots started though
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9891709/
    and I'm just now reading this one
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9938406/site/newsweek/
    Last edited by d'Anconia; 11-08-2005 at 02:05 PM.
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  2. #2
    General of Froot Soldiers TwiloMike's Avatar
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    I've been loosely following the story. It sounds unbelievable.
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  3. #3
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    i'm with you in that i haven't heard a clear explanation for the cause. at least i feel like i'm missing it...
    Last edited by squat it all!; 11-08-2005 at 02:17 PM.
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    Senior Member Manveet's Avatar
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    I hope they storm the bastille!
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  5. #5
    Om. Avocado. MM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manveet
    I hope they storm the bastille!
    Ahahaha!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manveet
    I hope they storm the bastille!
    hahaha nice

    that will lead to ANOTHER treaty of versaille haha

  7. #7
    Om. Avocado. MM's Avatar
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    The underlying cause? France has a huge immigrant population, but "The Grand Republic" hasn't been able to assimilate these people into its culture. Banning the hijab and not being able to improve stagnant unemployment in the minority Arab/Islamic communities probably hasn't helped, and neither did their initial respose to the rioting.

    I've been fairly interested in the overall lack of targeting Jewish symbols during the rioting, which goes a long way towards convincinig me that this is a mini-institutional rebellion of sorts. My guess is that France isn't so much going to solve the riots as will the riots run out of vandals.
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    Senior Member shootermcgavin7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MM
    The underlying cause? France has a huge immigrant population, but "The Grand Republic" hasn't been able to assimilate these people into its culture. Banning the hijab and not being able to improve stagnant unemployment in the minority Arab/Islamic communities probably hasn't helped, and neither did their initial respose to the rioting.

    The interesting point here is that the job opportunities in France are STILL a lot better than running around Darfur with an AK-47.

  9. #9
    Om. Avocado. MM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shootermcgavin7
    The interesting point here is that the job opportunities in France are STILL a lot better than running around Darfur with an AK-47.
    I don't think most of the French Arabs and Muslims are Sudanese, I think most are Algerian. Your point is well-taken, in a sense, but you can hardly blame people for feeling neglected in the immediate situation and not seeing things in a more universal sense.
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    Senior Member shootermcgavin7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MM
    I don't think most of the French Arabs and Muslims are Sudanese, I think most are Algerian.
    My point was more sarcastic than anything - although Algeria isn't the only source for French muslim immigrants, the Turkish population is also relatively large in Western Europe.

    Sudan was an extreme example of currently emigrating Muslims.

    Your point is well-taken, in a sense, but you can hardly blame people for feeling neglected in the immediate situation and not seeing things in a more universal sense.
    While France (and much of Western Europe) has some misguided policies that result in high unemployment (especially in the 18-30 age group), Western society as a whole has a traditionally/historically/globally low unemployment rate. Admittedly, when I spent my couple years in Europe, it was in the Czech Republic, where I didn't have as much exposure to the poorer Muslim population, although when my brother spend a couple years in Geneva, Switzerland, he had a lot more exposure to it. While I'm not 100% sure of the major underlying cause of unemployment here, my guess would be that it has to do with language and culture barriers typical to first generation immigrant groups (for a parallel, see Hispanic groups in the US currently). Every first generation immigrant group is deathly poor, but their kids usually do better, who have kids that do even better.

    You're right that the long-run is probably irrelevant here, but if you can't speak the language and/or live the culture, you likely will not assimilate there.

    I do agree with the fact that, for all their perceived openness, the French are one of the most intolerant nationalities on the planet.


    However, going back to my original point, if these are 1st generation immigrants, they are probably better off than wherever they left.

  11. #11
    Om. Avocado. MM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shootermcgavin7
    My point was more sarcastic than anything - although Algeria isn't the only source for French muslim immigrants, the Turkish population is also relatively large in Western Europe.

    Sudan was an extreme example of currently emigrating Muslims.



    While France (and much of Western Europe) has some misguided policies that result in high unemployment (especially in the 18-30 age group), Western society as a whole has a traditionally/historically/globally low unemployment rate. Admittedly, when I spent my couple years in Europe, it was in the Czech Republic, where I didn't have as much exposure to the poorer Muslim population, although when my brother spend a couple years in Geneva, Switzerland, he had a lot more exposure to it. While I'm not 100% sure of the major underlying cause of unemployment here, my guess would be that it has to do with language and culture barriers typical to first generation immigrant groups (for a parallel, see Hispanic groups in the US currently). Every first generation immigrant group is deathly poor, but their kids usually do better, who have kids that do even better.

    You're right that the long-run is probably irrelevant here, but if you can't speak the language and/or live the culture, you likely will not assimilate there.

    I do agree with the fact that, for all their perceived openness, the French are one of the most intolerant nationalities on the planet.


    However, going back to my original point, if these are 1st generation immigrants, they are probably better off than wherever they left.

    I don't disagree with anything that you're saying. I don't think most of those who are rioting are first generation immigrants, but I do think the clash of a conservative culture (Arab) and a uninclusive (relatively) privleged culture has probably had a lot to do with the underlying problems. I will suggest that even if these aren't first generation immigrants, the poverty of the first generation was likely just passed down to the latter generations, even if that generation is now "better off".
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    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that setting cars on fire is the national sport of France. On an average New Years Eve, 300+ cars are lit up. The reason this is such a big deal is the volume and duration of the rioting.

    The "explanation" for the riots is quite complex, and includes economic and political disenfranchisement, perceived and actual religious persecution, racism, crazy religious fanaticism, lack of opportunity, moron responses by the government, etc. There is no single cause.

    The cites are actually pretty calm during the day, and very people have been seriously injured or killed. I'd call it on par with the Rodney King LA riots. Lots of morons, lots of grievances, lot of innocent people lose their property.

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  13. #13
    Om. Avocado. MM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash
    The cites are actually pretty calm during the day, and very people have been seriously injured or killed. I'd call it on par with the Rodney King LA riots. Lots of morons, lots of grievances, lot of innocent people lose their property.
    The LA Riots took 50 lives, compared to one death here. The other significant difference is the regional nature of these riots, which have spread throughout the country. Certainly on a tragic level, I'd say the LA Riots take the prize. On the otherhand, I'd consider these riots far more significant.
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  14. #14
    Professional hobbit Focused70's Avatar
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    30% unemployment for French/Arab and French/North African immigrants, coupled with deeply ingrained racism and widespread discrimination in a supposedly "progressive" society are the causes.

    They have a long long way to go and comments by Marine Le Pen (daughter of the founder of the National Front) such as the one below don't help:

    The state-of-emergency law was last used in 1985 to restore order in the French overseas territory of New Caledonia during the presidency of Francois Mitterrand. The first call for it to be imposed now came from a senior official of the extreme-right National Front. Marine Le Pen, daughter of the group's veteran leader, said last Thursday that only the 1955 law would allow order to be restored.
    The 1955 law Mme. Le Pen is referring to is this:

    The law itself states that emergency measures can be enacted by government decree for up to 12 days on all or part of the territory of France. Beyond a curfew, the law gives the authorities powers to conduct raids without a warrant; to restrict freedom of the press and freedom of assembly; to shut down theaters; to close bars; and to put under house arrest any individual whose activities are deemed dangerous to the maintenance of law and order.
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    Still likes women a lot. voodazz's Avatar
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    Well, I guess I can scratch France off my European tour. Last thing I need to be maced and locked up because "I fit the profile" of a rioter. I can do that in this country!

    Besides, everyone knows it's dem pesky durn terrists who are behind this rukus!
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  16. #16
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    to everyone who offered explanations as to the cause: thanks, cuz i haven't been following the story closely until now. i'll definitely be watching the news over the next few days.
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  17. #17
    Banned Praetorian's Avatar
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    There has been several small riots and dissent among the immigrant population in France for a time now due to the reasons MM stated, and the Inner-minister of France have used stupid rhetoric a couple of times, saying stuff like "we're gonna clean the streets of trash". Trash refering to the immigrant youth criminals. The whole thing was set off when a couple of immigrants youths got fried when they hid in one of those voltage sheds while trying to escape from the cops.

    Same thing happened in Sydney last year. There were huge ass riots a couple of blocks down from where I live.

  18. #18
    Om. Avocado. MM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Praetorian
    Same thing happened in Sydney last year. There were huge ass riots a couple of blocks down from where I live.
    What was that? The redwood district, or something like that. Again, not quite so bad as what we're seeing here, especially because the Aboriginal population is only something like 1% of the Australian population. I think those riots also began due to the death of a youth by the police.
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  19. #19
    Wrecker of Homes d'Anconia's Avatar
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    Yeah I'm starting to get how this thing unfolded.

    What surprised me, and I know these are generalizations, is that when people in our nation talk of liberals and socialism, they often consider France a stereotype of that type of government. But on the other hand just looking at the bigotry that helped cause this riot totally undoes my stereotype of France.

    I don't mean to make this a political thread but even as socialist as France is... their unemployment rate is double ours. And yeah it's even worse for some minorities.
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  20. #20
    Om. Avocado. MM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatrb38
    I don't mean to make this a political thread but even as socialist as France is... their unemployment rate is double ours. And yeah it's even worse for some minorities.
    Haha. That shouldn't be a "but" statement. Their unemployment is double ours (in large part) because of the underlying socialist policies of the 80's and 90's. Like Germany recently has, France is going to have to face the music on its federal employment policies.
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  21. #21
    Senior Member BilltheButcher's Avatar
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    Its amazing there is violence going on. I thought when violence occurs the French will surrender, but I guess if they are all french who do they surrender to?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BilltheButcher
    Its amazing there is violence going on. I thought when violence occurs the French will surrender, but I guess if they are all french who do they surrender to?
    Actually, the French have an excellent record of continuous inter-resistance. They basically fought with one another for ~100 years before they found a new partner in Prussia.
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  23. #23
    Senior Member Jorge Sanchez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatrb38
    I don't mean to make this a political thread but even as socialist as France is... their unemployment rate is double ours. And yeah it's even worse for some minorities.
    I love how technically off-base, and skewed to the right American political labels are.
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  24. #24
    Banned Praetorian's Avatar
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    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3491299.stm
    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/fe...redf-f17.shtml


    Years of pandering to Aboriginals with massive welfare payments and special privileges while simultaneously fuelling their resentment by dwelling on past grievances, blew up in the faces of the social engineers, do-gooders and the politically correct elites on a hot February night in the Aboriginal ghetto of Redfern when a horde of rampaging, rioting Aboriginals torched the Redfern railway station and then set about assaulting police with bricks, bottles and fire-bombs.

    Tension began building following the accidental death of an Aboriginal youth on the morning of Sunday 15 February. Riding his bicycle in a reckless manner, he fell off and impaled himself on a fence. Rumours spread like wildfire through the ghetto that the youth died in a police pursuit, a claim the police deny. Posters sprang up calling the police child murderers. Groups of Aboriginals started preparing Molotov cocktails and filling wheelie bins with bricks, paving slabs and bottles.

    Full scale rioting broke out after dark. It was not quelled until the early hours of Monday morning by which time, reportedly eight police were hospitalised and another forty injured.

    The politically correct pandering to Aboriginals is one of the root causes of their tragic state. Many Aboriginals feel they are not accountable for their actions or responsible for their lives. Read "Killing them softly".

    In most cases they are beyond the law - and they know it. The police were too timid in quelling the riot because they knew would be accused of racism if they acted decisively. They allowed the rioters to advance to within metres of them to throw brick, bottles and even Molotov cocktails. No wonder so many police were injured.

    Far from denouncing the riot, many of the ghetto's residents hailed it as a success.

    About 150 residents gathered in Pemulway Park next day to hear Aboriginal leader Lyall Munro urge even more violence. Residents cheered and whistled approval when Munro, using a megaphone, said "the streets were taken by our young people and we are all proud."

    Munro warned that Redfern could become the next Brixton, the scene of violent race riots in the UK. "If Palestinian kids can fight war tanks with sling shots, our kids can do the same", Munro said.
    http://www.australian-news.com.au/Redfern_riots.htm
    Last edited by Praetorian; 11-08-2005 at 03:03 PM.

  25. #25
    Om. Avocado. MM's Avatar
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    Yeah, sweet. Ghandi he's not.
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