The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    Wannabebig New Member
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    Need help getting Bench Press back up

    My bench press is going down and I need advice for a new workout to get it back up stronger than it originally was. I went from doing 10 reps on my first set with 165 to doing it about 15 reps in about 3 weeks. I worked on my chest every Monday and Thursday. My workout consisted of:

    Bench Press 5 sets 165lbs as many reps as I could do every set
    Military Press 5 sets of 110 lbs 12 reps each set
    Butterflies (dumbell flyes) 5 sets of 45lbs in each arm as many reps as I could do every set
    Dips 4 sets of 10 reps with no weight and 1 set of as many reps as possible.

    But recently I have dropped back down to being able to do 165lbs only about 12 times on my first set and my chest feels like it has shrunk.

    My max bench was at about 240lbs, not sure what it is now but I would be very lucky if I could even do 230lbs now.

    I have taken a break from doing any kind of chest workout for about a week except for doing about 5 sets of close grip pushups for 20 reps. I plan on starting back soon and need some advice on what I should do to get my bench press back up.

    Currently I am planning on starting over with doing this routine every Monday and Thursday:

    Bench Press 5 sets of 145lbs as many reps as I can do every set
    Military Press 5 sets of 110 12 reps every set
    Behind Neck Shoulder Press 3 sets of 90lbs 12 reps every set
    Butterflies 5 sets of 45lbs as many reps as I can do every set
    Close Grip Pushups 5 sets of 20 reps ever set

    Any advice on any other routine that might be helpful?

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  3. #2
    Volleyball is coming joberly's Avatar
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    Maybe your body doesn't like you hitting it twice a week?

  4. #3
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    It's a mistake to do "as many reps as you can do" on every set, also called "going to failure." Somebody with more expertise can elaborate on this.

  5. #4
    Bodybuilding Mythbuster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mavidatt
    My bench press is going down and I need advice for a new workout to get it back up stronger than it originally was. I went from doing 10 reps on my first set with 165 to doing it about 15 reps in about 3 weeks. I worked on my chest every Monday and Thursday. My workout consisted of:

    Bench Press 5 sets 165lbs as many reps as I could do every set
    Military Press 5 sets of 110 lbs 12 reps each set
    Butterflies (dumbell flyes) 5 sets of 45lbs in each arm as many reps as I could do every set
    Dips 4 sets of 10 reps with no weight and 1 set of as many reps as possible.

    But recently I have dropped back down to being able to do 165lbs only about 12 times on my first set and my chest feels like it has shrunk.

    My max bench was at about 240lbs, not sure what it is now but I would be very lucky if I could even do 230lbs now.

    I have taken a break from doing any kind of chest workout for about a week except for doing about 5 sets of close grip pushups for 20 reps. I plan on starting back soon and need some advice on what I should do to get my bench press back up.

    Currently I am planning on starting over with doing this routine every Monday and Thursday:

    Bench Press 5 sets of 145lbs as many reps as I can do every set
    Military Press 5 sets of 110 12 reps every set
    Behind Neck Shoulder Press 3 sets of 90lbs 12 reps every set
    Butterflies 5 sets of 45lbs as many reps as I can do every set
    Close Grip Pushups 5 sets of 20 reps ever set

    Any advice on any other routine that might be helpful?
    The KISS routine is an excellent one. Not flaming you but your routine is too much work. Way too much sets and way way too many reps if you are trying to gain strength. Keep doing this and you are looking at shoulder surgery in your future.

    Very often in bodybuilding less is more. Drop the butterflies they are not a particularly good mass or strength builder. Drop the behind the neck shoulder press. Those can destroy your rotator cuff. Drop the pushups. Pushups are only really good for...well doing pushups.

    Cut back your reps to five on the bench and military press. Increase the weight. Do this ONCE a week. If you MUST train chest twice a week, go with dips the second training day. Do not train again if still sore from your previous workout.
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 11-29-2005 at 08:46 PM.

  6. #5
    Wannabebig Member
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    Everyone on every internet site will have a different idea on "training to failure" Facts are if you want to build the most amount of muscle possible in the least amount of time then you must push to failure on every single set. You will still build muscle if you go close but not as much as if you reach failure. If you lift 3 times a week for one hour each time for a year there will only be about a total of 4 hours in that whole year that you will create the spark that allow decent muscle to be built. [Given diet and rest} It is at that time when you struggle to get that last rep from any given lift or pull.

  7. #6
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Last edited by ZenMonkey; 09-14-2007 at 09:10 PM.
    Sarvamangalam!

  8. #7
    Ex-Manwhore KingWilder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ribs View Post
    Everyone on every internet site will have a different idea on "training to failure" Facts are if you want to build the most amount of muscle possible in the least amount of time then you must push to failure on every single set. You will still build muscle if you go close but not as much as if you reach failure. If you lift 3 times a week for one hour each time for a year there will only be about a total of 4 hours in that whole year that you will create the spark that allow decent muscle to be built. [Given diet and rest} It is at that time when you struggle to get that last rep from any given lift or pull.
    care to elaborate on this magical 4 total hours in the whole year that will create decent muscle growth? Feel free to submit any kind of study that backs up exactly what you're saying.

    And yes, training to "failure" is a tricky subject because people tend to have different ideas of what exactly failure is. As long as you're overloading your muscle, I don't believe it's necessary to go to failure on every single set every single time you train (this is what it sounds like you're suggesting). Sounds like a sure fire way to burn out and fry your CNS to me.
    5'10", 170lbs, 10% bf

    Bench:255 Squat:295 Dead:400
    Snatch:145 C&J: 205
    Chin-Up: +135 Dip: +100
    Max Pull-Ups: 44

    CrossFit Lv. 1, ACE-CPT

    You want our weapons!? Come and get them!

  9. #8
    Watchya talkn bout willis
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    So i'm spending 2-3 hours a week when only 1 minute of that counts? damn it.
    Weight:207
    375/300/365 Goal by summer:415/315/415

  10. #9
    Bodybuilding Mythbuster
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    Quote Originally Posted by ribs View Post
    Everyone on every internet site will have a different idea on "training to failure" Facts are if you want to build the most amount of muscle possible in the least amount of time then you must push to failure on every single set.
    Regardless of what training to "failure" means, your above sentence is not a fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by ribs View Post
    You will still build muscle if you go close but not as much as if you reach failure.
    Wrong. Where did you read this stuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by ribs View Post
    If you lift 3 times a week for one hour each time for a year there will only be about a total of 4 hours in that whole year that you will create the spark that allow decent muscle to be built. [Given diet and rest}
    WHAT? You can only build muscle over 4 hours over a whole year? Ludicrous. Utterly so.



    Quote Originally Posted by ribs View Post
    It is at that time when you struggle to get that last rep from any given lift or pull.
    STOP giving "advice" please. You failed to make a single correct point. Not only that, you reactivated a nearly 2 year old thread. What's up with that?

  11. #10
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    :withstupi yeah........ stop giving advice

    why would you restart a 2 yearold thread? Especially when you are wrong?
    Last edited by ZenMonkey; 09-15-2007 at 12:11 PM.
    Sarvamangalam!

  12. #11
    Senior Member KoolDrew's Avatar
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    Going to failure is your problem. Lower your reps, up the weight, and don't train to failure.

    EDIT - WTF... this thread is two years old. Oh well.. lol
    Last edited by KoolDrew; 09-15-2007 at 11:59 AM.

  13. #12
    Wannabebig Member
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    You don't have to agree with me. Just because i have different view to you does not mean it is wrong. 4 hours a year? well actually its less than that. What i am saying is that if you do 1 set of 5-7 reps of whatever than the first 1 to 4 reps are only there to get you to the last couple of reps where real muscle break down happens. Add up the time it takes to do those last couple of reps on every set in your workout and its a lot less than 4 hours a year that trully stimulates muscle breakdown. Thats all i'm saying

    Fried CNS? Doing endless sets and reps and spending to long in the gym may
    do that. Small sets and low reps will not. I train to failure. What you do is up to you.

  14. #13
    Senior Member KoolDrew's Avatar
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    ribs, it's not a matter of opinion or views. You stated the following...

    Facts are if you want to build the most amount of muscle possible in the least amount of time then you must push to failure on every single set. You will still build muscle if you go close but not as much as if you reach failure.
    You stated something as a fact when it is completely false. That's what makes you wrong.

    You can train to failure all you want, but you're not helping hypertrophy. Instead all you're doing is causing way more neural fatigue than necessary, simply prolonging how long it takes your body to recover from the workout.
    Last edited by KoolDrew; 09-15-2007 at 07:38 PM.

  15. #14
    Ex-Manwhore KingWilder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ribs View Post
    Fried CNS? Doing endless sets and reps and spending to long in the gym may
    do that. Small sets and low reps will not. I train to failure. What you do is up to you.
    who said anything about doing endless sets of reps?

    you can lift heavy with low reps WITHOUT training to failure and still make gains
    5'10", 170lbs, 10% bf

    Bench:255 Squat:295 Dead:400
    Snatch:145 C&J: 205
    Chin-Up: +135 Dip: +100
    Max Pull-Ups: 44

    CrossFit Lv. 1, ACE-CPT

    You want our weapons!? Come and get them!

  16. #15
    Bodybuilding Mythbuster
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    Quote Originally Posted by ribs View Post
    You don't have to agree with me. (1) Just because i have different view to you does not mean it is wrong.


    4 hours a year? well actually its less than that. What i am saying is that if you do 1 set of 5-7 reps of whatever than the (2) first 1 to 4 reps are only there to get you to the last couple of reps where real muscle break down happens. (3) Add up the time it takes to do those last couple of reps on every set in your workout and its a lot less than 4 hours a year that trully stimulates muscle breakdown. Thats all i'm saying

    Fried CNS? Doing endless sets and reps and spending to long in the gym may
    do that. Small sets and low reps will not. (4) I train to failure. What you do is up to you.
    (numbers are mine)

    1. As another poster said it has nothing to do with a different view. You stated an opinion as fact. At best it is unprovable and at worst false as there are people who have made BETTER gains going short of "failure" by any standards.

    2. So if you are doing your one rep max...or triple max, it is impossible to experience "real muscle breakdown"?

    3. What is the magic range of reps...how many do you have to do before experiencing "real muscle breakdown"?

    4. Training to "failure" EVERY time (if by failure you mean you can not do another rep no matter what) is very likely overload your CNS eventually. Unless of course you are doing only a few sets (for example 2,3,4.. sets) per workout. Then you might get away with it.

    But if you are training with 15-20 sets per workout and going to complete failure on all of them (failure in this case means where you can not possibly do another rep) and you train 3-4 days a week in this fashion you are extremely likely to experience CNS burnout at some point in the future.

    BTW you might want to define "failure"...what it means to you.
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 09-15-2007 at 09:55 PM.

  17. #16
    Hulk Smash! LouPac's Avatar
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    He must have a magic workout because when I trained to failure I couldn't get passed benching 275.

  18. #17
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    That's because it doesn't work as well as he says. The OP has no clue what he is talking about, and by now that is evident. All the OP has to know is that he will not be regarded with any credibility here. We all know he is wrong because we have been there done that, or at least I have, and we know the road goes nowhere. If he cannot man-up to accept that then fine. He will waste some time training to failure, then will (should) do some reading on wannabebig.com and then maybe revise his preconcieved notions. Then, friends, he will realize that though this be madness, there be method in't where as his is simply madness.
    Last edited by ZenMonkey; 09-15-2007 at 11:04 PM.
    Sarvamangalam!

  19. #18
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    Try telling Sean Nalewanyj that you don't have to train to failure.
    MuscleGainTruth,com. Its one of the must do's in his program.

  20. #19
    Senior Member KoolDrew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ribs View Post
    Try telling Sean Nalewanyj that you don't have to train to failure.
    MuscleGainTruth,com. Its one of the must do's in his program.
    Could you at least give us an idea on how it is structured? It really depends on how it is implemented into the routine. If there are rest periods within the program to help with recovery then it's likely training to failure won't negatively effect you that much. However, this does not mean it is necessary, nor that it helps hypertrophy.

    I'll quote a t-nation article...

    5. Donít Train to Failure

    Failure training (appropriately named) mandates extended rest periods. One of the most evident downfalls of training to failure is the amount of fatigue it induces. The cardiovascular demand, excessive lactic acid build-up, and nervous system fatigue caused by a single set of squats or deadlifts to failure is enough to have you hurling and trembling like Linda Blair. When youíre pushing the clock, thereís no time to sit around and wait for your muscles to pull themselves out of the hole youíve dug for them.

    In addition to longer rest periods that must be incorporated within the workout, failure training also extends your recovery time between workouts. My empirical evidence has shown this increase in recovery time to be upwards of an additional 48 hours! This is bad news for those who are interested in multiple total-body sessions throughout the week. Therefore, you shouldn't approach failure until the last rep of the last set of each exercise, if at all.
    Not to mention, going to failure on heavy compounds just leaves you more prone to injury. I couldn't imagine going to failure on heavy deadlifts.

  21. #20
    SchModerator ZenMonkey's Avatar
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    Arnold condones kickbacks in some articles. Do you believe everything you read or have you had good results training to failure? How do these results compare to the results that are from advice e have given you? The problem is that: YOU DON'T KNOW. You obviously have not spent nearly as much time in the gym with REAL experience as others here have.

    First things first though, anwser these before we go on further:
    1. How long have you been SERIOUSLY lifting?
    2. What are you current stats? (age, weight, height, bf, bench, DL, squat, we need proof on the lifts)
    3. What were your stats before you began training to failure?
    4. Have you tried any other programs for an appropriate amount of time?
    Sarvamangalam!

  22. #21
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ribs View Post
    Try telling Sean Nalewanyj that you don't have to train to failure.
    MuscleGainTruth,com. Its one of the must do's in his program.
    Yet another flaw in your logic.

    Welcome to WBB
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

  23. #22
    DeaTH BeFoRe WeaKNeSs sCaRz*Of*PaiN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ribs View Post
    Try telling Sean Nalewanyj that you don't have to train to failure.
    MuscleGainTruth,com. Its one of the must do's in his program.
    How long can you keep this going before you try and open your mind and let new and possibly better information seep into that skull of yours? There is not one and only one way to train. You need to understand this and you need to let it absorb into your brain. Seriously...this is getting ridiculous.
    "The only easy day was yesterday."

  24. #23
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    Hmm, maybe this is why I've been feeling a bit weak lately, like CNS weak. I think because I"ve been training to failure for each set that I"ve been doing.

    I think I'll try not to train to failure on each set. I wasn't doing forced reps but was training to failure.

    SHould I at least do 1 set to failure for each exercise? What is a good way to go about this?

  25. #24
    Ex-Manwhore KingWilder's Avatar
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    you shouldn't be going to failure on every set, don't even worry about that...train sets and reps (based on your goals) and worry about increasing the weight each week.

    For example:

    You're doing bench press today and you're going to use the 5x5 method

    here's how it went...

    205x5
    205x5
    205x5
    205x4
    205x4

    technically on the last two sets you "failed" (to get the 5th rep anyway)..it's not absolute failure, but it is failure (structured at least). The next week you would aim to get all sets of 5 reps...when you could do that you'd up the weight 5-10 lbs and start over, trying to get 5 reps on all sets
    5'10", 170lbs, 10% bf

    Bench:255 Squat:295 Dead:400
    Snatch:145 C&J: 205
    Chin-Up: +135 Dip: +100
    Max Pull-Ups: 44

    CrossFit Lv. 1, ACE-CPT

    You want our weapons!? Come and get them!

  26. #25
    Bodybuilding Mythbuster
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    As Paul Chek (and others have said) "Training to failure is training to fail"

    While a bit tongue in cheek, it does illustrate the misplaced focus. Progression, (whether that's in weight or reps, or sets, or body composition...et cetera)...that's what's most important.
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 09-17-2007 at 11:57 PM.

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