Check this out
Just read the first entry on the page entitled "Hardgainers". Pretty interesting.
So he's saying hardgainers should eat less protein?
He doesnt really make any clear point to be honest
I think the clear point is to lower insulin first, and then add extra protein, while keeping the insulin down.
But isn't that obvious? :S
Seeing as most hardgainers are usually told to just eat, eat, and eat as much as they can, almost regardless of glycemic index, this is not obvious at all in my opinion... They will keep downing shakes, hamburgers, pasta and icecream and fall into the trap that Mr. De Vany describes.
I don't think Mr. DeVany is the first to state this... there have been a number of studies about the right amounts of protein... too much, too little... and I don't think there has ever really been anything more exact then between 1 and 1.5 grams per kg bodyweight...
But there have been displayed instances where many strong, muscular men have done so on much less... and there others that have required musch more...
The plain simple matter is that you have to find your own balance... a lot of advice on WBB and other resources says the same thing... start with a base number.. and work yourself one way or the other until you find the results you are looking for.
You will find your body's magical points.. by learning and experimenting..
The consistent factors are:
Lift, Eat, Sleep..
Lift hard, Eat right, Sleep enough..
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okay, fair enough!Originally Posted by Mikael
I dont do that and I was never told to do that. I'd call myself a hardgainer (high maintenance calories, finds it hard to gain muscle) but I eat complex carbs, healthy fats etc. I still stay away from sugars too.
That's probably why what he said didnt strike me at all.
LOL people still believe there's such a thing as a hardgainer?
They're called ectomorphs. They don't gain because they don't eat. That's just how it is! No I'm not saying they should eat potato chips all day, but they should be eating much more food in general.
Or they might be eating enough but not optimizing their muscle gains because they're essentially sugarburners instead of fatburners. Insulin sensitivity is too low. I'm an ectomorph myself and over the years I've tried a lot of things. It's never been better than this year: I'm eating fewer calories, but I am optimizing my metabolism's reaction to added protein and its reaction to build new muscle. I've essentially drastically reduced my carb intake, especially carbs with high glycemic load (such as starches). I'm almost on a paleo diet.
Compare that with early last year, when I went with the general advice given to ectomorphs who struggle with weight gain: I just upped calories, ate a lot of carbs and proteins... I gained weight, but a lot of it was fat. The more I was gaining weight and increasing my calories, the more the ratio of muscle gain/fat gain was shrinking. Turns out my insulin levels were increasing all the time, and this made a lot of the protein become useless and lead to increased fat instead of increased muscle.
We might actually be agreeing... I just really think that it is essential to stress the importance of insulin when giving advice to "hardgainers". Otherwise they might make the same mistakes as me last year and just go overboard with carb/protein intake.
Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
"hardgainers" are simply people who have a hard time putting on muscle. And this article explains why the classic reply of "eat more" simply doesn't make sense for some people. Eating more in my case simply puts on fat.
Yes there are hardgainers. I am one of them. Back in the day I used to consume 4000+ calories a day and train for 2 hours. Never got anywhere. Finally when I bought the training down to 45 minutes I started making progress...but it's always been slow.
So youre saying that you didnt put on muscle bc you worked out 2 hours a day. Well that could be why you put on a lot of fat. If you eat right, do some cardio, and lift compound movements and gain strenght by inc all your maxes, idont see why you would gain more muscle then fat. And if you do, then lower the ratio at which you gain from 2 to 1 or half a pound a week. Its not THAT difficult.Originally Posted by ExtremeAnabolic
Then you should eat more.Originally Posted by ExtremeAnabolic
The problem these days is that people are too caught up in this and that am I doing this right or wrong, how many supplements should I take. Bottom line eat and train intense. If you don't gain eat more. simple as that
Originally Posted by RBC13
I never said I put on a lot of fat. Not sure where you are getting that. As for the rest of your post it doesn't make much sense. Who wouldn't want to gain more muscle than fat? And if I were gaining muscle why would I lower the ratio at which I was gaining?
Originally Posted by imageD
(1) Eating more just added unwanted fat.
(2)As the article shows sometimes eating more just adds fat. Rarely in life is anything as "simple as that" Read the article again.
There is no one answer for ALL problems. And while eating more is probably the answer to most people's quest for size it was not for me.
Last edited by Songsangnim; 01-01-2006 at 02:36 AM.
Seriously, listen how absurd you sound.Originally Posted by ExtremeAnabolic
"And while eating more is probably the answer to most people's quest for size it was not for me"
That is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard someone say in regards to bodybuilding. If you found you were putting on too much fat 1) change your macros up and/or 2) give your body a greater growth stimulus (more intense training)
people make bodybuilding more complex than it has to be
I think there IS such a thing as a hardgainer.
My definition of hardgainer would be someone with high maintenance calories and finds it hard to develop muscle. I know people who are naturally muscular and strong and gain more muscle very easily. I'm not one of them. I also know guys much larger than me who need less calories to bulk than I do to maintain.
People may make gaining "weight" more complex than it has to be, but you are truly ingnorant to make that generalization about bodybodybuilding.Originally Posted by imageD
And yes, there are those out there can can muscle extremely easily, even on piss-poor diets. And there are others who will struggle all their life, even when doing things perfect.
Let's not get into the genetics argument, but people are pysiologically different from one another.
No, that's really not "just how it is."Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
Last edited by Slim Schaedle; 01-01-2006 at 10:48 AM.
How does working out for 2 hours/day promote fat accumulation/retention?Originally Posted by RBC13
What does bodyfat have to do with ExtremeAnabolic's post ayway. I didn't see him bring it up (?)
I just read the article and no one has addressed this yet...what pertinence does this article have to muscle anabolism. Perhaps the title should be changed because the term "hardgainer" is typically applied to those who gain muscle at a slower rate than the "average" person.
The only extremely remote correlation between the article content and muscle growth is the discussion of protein catabolism and that protein can undergo glucuneogenesis and be used for fuel. If he is implying that ALL protein you eat does this, and that is why people fail to gain, that is absurd.
Last edited by Slim Schaedle; 01-01-2006 at 10:46 AM.
The issue is fat intake being too low, IMO. Any protein over your 'needs' is converted to glycogen, then to fat if you eat too many calories.
But that's me.
Squats work better than supplements.
"You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
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This is RIDICULOUS! We are all humans - homo sapiens. There aren't 'sugarburners' and 'fatburners'(not to any significant degree). You're a sugar burner if you eat too much sugar! Fix your diet.Originally Posted by Mikael
Here's the thing... Regardless of genetics, virtually any untrained individual can put on 15-20lbs of muscle with proper training, EATING, and recovery. If you put 2 guys on a high calorie, high protein/fat diet while training them on a routine based on heavy compound movements, they'll both get bigger and stronger regardless of 'hardgainers' and 'sugar burners'.
OK, Extreme Anabolic. You said that you were a hardgainer. We agreed that the definition was not being able to put on as much muscle and putting on more fat. I quote,"Eating more in my case simply puts on fat." This is where the bf issue comes into Slim. And i figure that 2 hours a day on top of this is not helping out very much. Bc if you overtrain youre muscles, and force yourself to gain at a certain weight...well its not gonna be all muscle that you gain if you dont have a chance to repair your muscle tissue.Originally Posted by ExtremeAnabolic
So now back to your post:
You said that eating more in your case puts on fat. Well, i assume that you have bulked and put on a lot of fat, or it makes no sense at all why you would say that. I figured since youre gaining fat, that you arent gaining much muscle since youre a "hard gainer" and that you were gaining too much not in muscle. You out to do some more reading on here.I never said I put on a lot of fat. Not sure where you are getting that. As for the rest of your post it doesn't make much sense. Who wouldn't want to gain more muscle than fat? And if I were gaining muscle why would I lower the ratio at which I was gaining?
Now no offense, but i really dont believe in hardgainers. You can always eat more than your maintenence and just get a decent routine. If youre not gaining well, look at the little things like water, sleep, cardio, etc youll find a weak link. Our body is one of the most efficient things in this world with all it can do. Gaining muscle isnt rocket science. ITs a lot more fun
Sorry, but that's incorrect.Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
Last edited by Slim Schaedle; 01-01-2006 at 03:51 PM.
yea i think hes relating sugar burning in the article to more glycogen storages or something. And if you dont use all of it it goes to waste.
I never said that some people were born "sugarburners" and others "fatburners" like it's a different species or something. It's all about what you feed to your body (and actually, now that I think about it, genetics do obviously play a role in this).Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
You're completely right, "fix your diet" is the proper advice for a sugarburner. The problem is that some hardgainers/ectomorphs/skinny bastards/whatever you want to call them will come to this forum and most of the time they'll be told to "shut up and eat" or something similar. That's what happened to me last year. I completely overdid it, I was thinking in very linear terms (more calories: more muscle, less calories: less muscle, lots and lots of protein and carbs necessary) forgetting about other crucial variables like insulin. I could've made the same muscle gains without the added fat, with less calories, by priming my metabolism for muscle building and fat burning; instead of sugar burning and fat storage.