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Thread: Interesting article on "hard gainers" and diet - not the usual recommendations

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by imageD
    (1)Seriously, listen how absurd you sound.

    "And while eating more is probably the answer to most people's quest for size it was not for me"

    (2) That is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard someone say in regards to bodybuilding. If you found you were putting on too much fat 1) change your macros up and/or 2) give your body a greater growth stimulus (more intense training)

    people make bodybuilding more complex than it has to be
    (numbers are mine)

    1. Check your first post please.

    2. Changing macros will work ONLY and ONLY if caloric content is lowered as a result. As for giving my body a greater growth stimulus I was training 2 hours a day at that point with full body workouts. The point I was making, which you apparently failed to grasp is that sometimes better results can be had with lower calories and less training. More is not always better and many cases even less (overeating and overtraining)
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 01-02-2006 at 12:41 AM.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBC13
    OK, Extreme Anabolic. You said that you were a hardgainer. (1) We agreed that the definition was not being able to put on as much muscle and putting on more fat. I quote,"Eating more in my case simply puts on fat." This is where the bf issue comes into Slim. And i figure that 2 hours a day on top of this is not helping out very much. Bc if you overtrain youre muscles, and force yourself to gain at a certain weight...well its not gonna be all muscle that you gain if you dont have a chance to repair your muscle tissue.

    So now back to your post:


    (2) You said that eating more in your case puts on fat. Well, i assume that you have bulked and put on a lot of fat, or it makes no sense at all why you would say that. I figured since youre gaining fat, that you arent gaining much muscle since youre a "hard gainer" and that you were gaining too much not in muscle. You out to do some more reading on here.

    (3) Now no offense, but i really dont believe in hardgainers. You can always eat more than your maintenence and just get a decent routine. If youre not gaining well, look at the little things like water, sleep, cardio, etc youll find a weak link. Our body is one of the most efficient things in this world with all it can do. Gaining muscle isnt rocket science. ITs a lot more fun
    (numbers are mine)

    1. We did? No we didn't. I said that a hardgainer is someone who has a hard time putting on muscle. As for fat I said "in MY case". As for the 2 hours I eventually figured out that was not working and switched to a lower volume 1-2 bodyparts per day routine.

    2. Again I never said "a lot of fat". A few inches around the waist though is noticeable if you are quite slim to begin with. But over time if you have gained fat, why continue on the same path? Funny that you should say "reading" (see point 3).


    3. I recommend Stuart McRobert's book "Beyond Brawn". You might change your mind about hardgainers after reading that.
    Even eating more than maintance and having a decent even great routine, with plenty of rest, water and sleep, a person can still grow very slowly. If your genetics dictate that you will be small, you can still look quite muscular, but it will take a lot more time than someone who has say Ronnie Coleman or Jay Cutler genetics. Genetics affect everything from how big you get to how fast you gain. If you have very bad genetics, it will take a long time to get big, if indeed you ever do. Someone at five feet one inch, with a very small bone structure does just not have the potential to be big (at least to the point where people take a second look)
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 01-02-2006 at 01:01 AM.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
    This is RIDICULOUS! We are all humans - homo sapiens. There aren't 'sugarburners' and 'fatburners'(not to any significant degree). You're a sugar burner if you eat too much sugar! Fix your diet.

    Here's the thing... Regardless of genetics, virtually any untrained individual can put on 15-20lbs of muscle with proper training, EATING, and recovery. If you put 2 guys on a high calorie, high protein/fat diet while training them on a routine based on heavy compound movements, they'll both get bigger and stronger regardless of 'hardgainers' and 'sugar burners'.

    So because we are all "homo sapiens" one person can't have high insulin levels and another person have low levels? Given that then both people would respond to your above mentioned diet differently. Some people have to eat differently than others. Ever hear of lactose intolerance? Just as some people have lactose intolerance so do some people's bodies convert protein to sugar more readily than do others.

    They will both get bigger and stronger, but who's to say that they wouldn't have gotten even bigger and stronger on a different diet?
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 01-02-2006 at 01:10 AM.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExtremeAnabolic
    (numbers are mine)

    1. Check your first post please.

    2. Changing macros will work ONLY and ONLY if caloric content is lowered as a result. As for giving my body a greater growth stimulus I was training 2 hours a day at that point with full body workouts. The point I was making, which you apparently failed to grasp is that sometimes better results can be had with lower calories and less training. More is not always better and many cases even less (overeating and overtraining)
    I agree with you on the training part more is not better --- but 2 hours a day full body- sounds like you were overtraining - if you are natural that is. As far as eating goes, I really have no idea what you are talking about. You can eat as little as you want, your gains will lower even more. If you put crap food in --> crap results out.

  5. #30
    Banned Slim Schaedle's Avatar
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    There is such a great ack of reading comprehension in this thread it's disgusting.
    Last edited by Slim Schaedle; 01-02-2006 at 10:14 AM.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Stagg
    The issue is fat intake being too low, IMO. Any protein over your 'needs' is converted to glycogen, then to fat if you eat too many calories.

    But that's me.

    I think Paul has it spot on. When I first joined this board, one of my best conversations was with Bradley (damn does the board miss his knowledge) and he insisted I increase my fats. Adding fats has been the key to me breaking past barriers.

    And yes I do believe in hardgainers. A hardgainer in my eyes is someone when needs 4000+ maintenance calories to gain. There are plenty of people on this board who can gain on half the calories I do. There are others that need 6-7000 cals to gain. You just need to find your maintenance calories, and eat more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Schaedle
    There is such a great ack of reading comprehension in this thread it's disgusting.

    Irony lol

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidelmo
    Irony lol
    Haha...good point

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidelmo
    Irony lol

    Not really. He wasn't talking about SPELLING, but reading comprehension. Now if he had been taking people to task over their spelling it would have been a different story.


    And I agree that there is a serious lack of reading comprehension.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by imageD
    I agree with you on the training part more is not better --- but 2 hours a day full body- sounds like you were overtraining - if you are natural that is. As far as eating goes, I really have no idea what you are talking about. You can eat as little as you want, your gains will lower even more. If you put crap food in --> crap results out.
    I was talking about overeating. Slightly increasing your calories above maintance (rather then eating everything in sight, as has been recommended) is a better way to go about it. Sure your gains will be slow but it will be nearly all muscle as opposed to a ordinary bulk where about half (or thereabouts) of that is blubber.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExtremeAnabolic
    Not really. He wasn't talking about SPELLING, but reading comprehension. Now if he had been taking people to task over their spelling it would have been a different story.


    And I agree that there is a serious lack of reading comprehension.
    I know... take a joke man! It would have been better if his sentence didnt make sense or, even better, he misinterpreted someone else but I had to work with what I got!

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExtremeAnabolic
    Not really. He wasn't talking about SPELLING, but reading comprehension. Now if he had been taking people to task over their spelling it would have been a different story.
    I realized that too....but still thought it was funny.

  13. #38
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Schaedle
    Sorry, but that's incorrect.
    If you eat more sugar, your body gets better at metabolizing it...
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
    If you eat more sugar, your body gets better at metabolizing it...
    First, where did you get this?

    Second, what direct relevance does this have to your comment "You're a sugar burner if you eat too much sugar! Fix your diet" and my response "Sorry, but that's incorrect."

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
    If you eat more sugar, your body gets better at metabolizing it...
    No. This is absolutely incorrect. Sugar LEACHES vitamins and minerals from your body. The more you eat of it, the more vitamins and minerals it depletes from your body. If your body then has a deficit of vitamins and minerals it will not be better at anything ESPECIALLY metabolizing food.
    Please read up on this subject BEFORE speaking about it. Thank you

  16. #41
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Schaedle
    First, where did you get this?

    Second, what direct relevance does this have to your comment "You're a sugar burner if you eat too much sugar! Fix your diet" and my response "Sorry, but that's incorrect."
    "I suspect hard gainers on high protein have insulin levels that are soaring and they are becoming insulin resistant (many body builders do). Excess protein intake is almost as sure a prescription for insulin resistance as excess carbohydrate intake.

    As these individuals become insulin resistant, they become sugar burners. They cease to burn fat and end up carrying too much body fat (a large percentage of people in the gym do).

    When they cease to be able to access their fat, their cells must have sugar. Where does it come from between meals and during sleep? From muscle and bone, the largest sources of protein in the body."

    Insulin sensitivity... that MIGHT have something to do with it...

    If you eat anything in excess for a long period of time, your body will adapt to it and get better at metabolizing it and getting rid of it. That's pretty obvious, don't you think?

    Ok for the "you're a sugarburner if you eat too much sugar" comment, the excess protein(which shouldn't exist in any significant amount in a good diet) causes a release of insulin(although not much) and is converted to sugar, which releases insulin as well. If individuals in that state cut down on excess sugar and protein consumption, they wouldn't be so insulin resistant... hence you're a sugarburner if you eat too much sugar.
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  17. #42
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExtremeAnabolic
    No. This is absolutely incorrect. Sugar LEACHES vitamins and minerals from your body. The more you eat of it, the more vitamins and minerals it depletes from your body. If your body then has a deficit of vitamins and minerals it will not be better at anything ESPECIALLY metabolizing food.
    Please read up on this subject BEFORE speaking about it. Thank you
    Are we discussing sugar LEECHING vitamins and minerals? No. Even if we were, do you honestly think anyone eats enough sugar to inhibit their body from metabolizing food?

    Don't start talking like you're an expert. You've got ALOT to learn.
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  18. #43
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    All of you do. And anyone who isnt willing to admit that is a pompous jackass.

    If anyone thinks the difference between them being a weak little bitch and a jacked bodybuilder is excess protein and carbs causing insulin resistance then they are a damned fool. That article carries small points of merit smeared over with absolute ****.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
    "I suspect hard gainers on high protein have insulin levels that are soaring and they are becoming insulin resistant (many body builders do). Excess protein intake is almost as sure a prescription for insulin resistance as excess carbohydrate intake.

    As these individuals become insulin resistant, they become sugar burners. They cease to burn fat and end up carrying too much body fat (a large percentage of people in the gym do).

    When they cease to be able to access their fat, their cells must have sugar. Where does it come from between meals and during sleep? From muscle and bone, the largest sources of protein in the body."

    Insulin sensitivity... that MIGHT have something to do with it...

    If you eat anything in excess for a long period of time, your body will adapt to it and get better at metabolizing it and getting rid of it. That's pretty obvious, don't you think?

    Ok for the "you're a sugarburner if you eat too much sugar" comment, the excess protein(which shouldn't exist in any significant amount in a good diet) causes a release of insulin(although not much) and is converted to sugar, which releases insulin as well. If individuals in that state cut down on excess sugar and protein consumption, they wouldn't be so insulin resistant... hence you're a sugarburner if you eat too much sugar.
    Well, the body utilizes glucose in many ways (in regards to energy production, provided that they are not in ketosis) so being a "sugar burner" does not have to do with eating too much sugar (unless you are refering specifically to the amount of glucose required to keep one out of ketosis, but I doubt that)

    If you are getting your defenses to any of our objections from the article that was orginally posted, you might want a better source.

    As for the rest, I don't know where to begin, so I probably won't. Unless I am not feeling lazy later.
    Last edited by Slim Schaedle; 01-06-2006 at 06:20 AM.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalls
    That article carries small points of merit smeared over with absolute ****.
    No kidding there.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx

    (1) Are we discussing sugar LEECHING vitamins and minerals? No. Even if we were, do you honestly think anyone eats enough sugar to inhibit their body from metabolizing food?
    Don't start talking like you're an expert. You've got ALOT to learn.
    numbers are mine

    1. You were the one who stated "if you eat more sugar your body gets better at metabolizing it" As for "do you honestly think anyone eats enough sugar to inhibit their body from metabolizing food?" Yes many people do. There is sugar in white bread, in soft drinks, (many) fruit juices and numberous everyday foods. Most sugar consumption is not nearly enough to completely inhibit the body from metabolizing food, but the more sugar you eat the harder the body has to work.

    "Are we discussing sugar LEECHING vitamins and minerals? No." Um, that's what HAPPENS when you eat sugar. Eating more sugar then would not make the body more efficient.
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 01-06-2006 at 02:28 AM.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalls
    All of you do. And anyone who isnt willing to admit that is a pompous jackass.

    (1)If anyone thinks the difference between them being a weak little bitch and a jacked bodybuilder is excess protein and carbs causing insulin resistance then they are a damned fool. (2)That article carries small points of merit smeared over with absolute ****.
    (numbers are mine)

    1. No one was saying this. This is merely one of several reasons that make up said "difference." But as natural bodybuilders we should attempt to take advantage of every natural dietary trick that might take us to the next level. Of course one has to have the rest of his diet in hand, a good training regime and plenty of rest in order to advance to this next level.

    2. Agreed.

  23. #48
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalls
    All of you do. And anyone who isnt willing to admit that is a pompous jackass.

    If anyone thinks the difference between them being a weak little bitch and a jacked bodybuilder is excess protein and carbs causing insulin resistance then they are a damned fool. That article carries small points of merit smeared over with absolute ****.
    The only parts of the article I agree with are the obvious ones... such as frequent overconsumption of sugar raises insulin sensitivity, not a good thing. Notions such as 'sugarburner' are ridiculous.
    Last edited by Meat_Head; 01-06-2006 at 03:10 PM.
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Schaedle
    Well, the body utilizes glucose in many ways (in regards to energy production, provided that they are not in ketosis) so being a "sugar burner" does not have to do with eating too much sugar (unless you are refering specifically to the amount of glucose required to keep one out of ketosis, but I doubt that)
    I wasn't talking about ketosis. Glucose is used for everything, true, which is why the body would ADAPT to high levels of glucose(that put it out of homeostasis) by metabolizing, using, and storing it faster and more efficiently. Part of that has to do with insulin sensitivity, but my point is if those individuals the article refers to as 'sugarburners' and 'hardgainers' ate less simple sugars and more fats, they would have much better results. I don't by into the excess protein crap to be honest, if you're lifting heavy you're body will be holding onto all the protein it can.
    Last edited by Meat_Head; 01-06-2006 at 03:11 PM.
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  25. #50
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExtremeAnabolic
    numbers are mine

    1. You were the one who stated "if you eat more sugar your body gets better at metabolizing it" As for "do you honestly think anyone eats enough sugar to inhibit their body from metabolizing food?" Yes many people do. There is sugar in white bread, in soft drinks, (many) fruit juices and numberous everyday foods. Most sugar consumption is not nearly enough to completely inhibit the body from metabolizing food, but the more sugar you eat the harder the body has to work.
    You know that any kind of carb you eat will be transformed into a sugar after consumption right? Humans THRIVE on sugars(and carbs in general), its a matter of moderation and eating the correct amounts of other nutrients in comparison.

    Since pretty much everyone agrees with evolution these days, let me throw this out there too - until roughly 5 million years ago our ancestors ate almost NOTHING but fruit and vegetation.... carbs. I'm not saying that's healthy for humans now, but you don't have to be terrified of sugar either.
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