Check this out
Just read the first entry on the page entitled "Hardgainers". Pretty interesting.
So he's saying hardgainers should eat less protein?
He doesnt really make any clear point to be honest
I think the clear point is to lower insulin first, and then add extra protein, while keeping the insulin down.
But isn't that obvious? :S
Seeing as most hardgainers are usually told to just eat, eat, and eat as much as they can, almost regardless of glycemic index, this is not obvious at all in my opinion... They will keep downing shakes, hamburgers, pasta and icecream and fall into the trap that Mr. De Vany describes.
okay, fair enough!Originally Posted by Mikael
I dont do that and I was never told to do that. I'd call myself a hardgainer (high maintenance calories, finds it hard to gain muscle) but I eat complex carbs, healthy fats etc. I still stay away from sugars too.
That's probably why what he said didnt strike me at all.
I don't think Mr. DeVany is the first to state this... there have been a number of studies about the right amounts of protein... too much, too little... and I don't think there has ever really been anything more exact then between 1 and 1.5 grams per kg bodyweight...
But there have been displayed instances where many strong, muscular men have done so on much less... and there others that have required musch more...
The plain simple matter is that you have to find your own balance... a lot of advice on WBB and other resources says the same thing... start with a base number.. and work yourself one way or the other until you find the results you are looking for.
You will find your body's magical points.. by learning and experimenting..
The consistent factors are:
Lift, Eat, Sleep..
Lift hard, Eat right, Sleep enough..
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LOL people still believe there's such a thing as a hardgainer?
They're called ectomorphs. They don't gain because they don't eat. That's just how it is! No I'm not saying they should eat potato chips all day, but they should be eating much more food in general.
Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
"hardgainers" are simply people who have a hard time putting on muscle. And this article explains why the classic reply of "eat more" simply doesn't make sense for some people. Eating more in my case simply puts on fat.
Yes there are hardgainers. I am one of them. Back in the day I used to consume 4000+ calories a day and train for 2 hours. Never got anywhere. Finally when I bought the training down to 45 minutes I started making progress...but it's always been slow.
So youre saying that you didnt put on muscle bc you worked out 2 hours a day. Well that could be why you put on a lot of fat. If you eat right, do some cardio, and lift compound movements and gain strenght by inc all your maxes, idont see why you would gain more muscle then fat. And if you do, then lower the ratio at which you gain from 2 to 1 or half a pound a week. Its not THAT difficult.Originally Posted by ExtremeAnabolic
Originally Posted by RBC13
I never said I put on a lot of fat. Not sure where you are getting that. As for the rest of your post it doesn't make much sense. Who wouldn't want to gain more muscle than fat? And if I were gaining muscle why would I lower the ratio at which I was gaining?
How does working out for 2 hours/day promote fat accumulation/retention?Originally Posted by RBC13
What does bodyfat have to do with ExtremeAnabolic's post ayway. I didn't see him bring it up (?)
Then you should eat more.Originally Posted by ExtremeAnabolic
The problem these days is that people are too caught up in this and that am I doing this right or wrong, how many supplements should I take. Bottom line eat and train intense. If you don't gain eat more. simple as that
Originally Posted by imageD
(1) Eating more just added unwanted fat.
(2)As the article shows sometimes eating more just adds fat. Rarely in life is anything as "simple as that" Read the article again.
There is no one answer for ALL problems. And while eating more is probably the answer to most people's quest for size it was not for me.
Last edited by Songsangnim; 01-01-2006 at 03:36 AM.
Seriously, listen how absurd you sound.Originally Posted by ExtremeAnabolic
"And while eating more is probably the answer to most people's quest for size it was not for me"
That is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard someone say in regards to bodybuilding. If you found you were putting on too much fat 1) change your macros up and/or 2) give your body a greater growth stimulus (more intense training)
people make bodybuilding more complex than it has to be
OK, Extreme Anabolic. You said that you were a hardgainer. We agreed that the definition was not being able to put on as much muscle and putting on more fat. I quote,"Eating more in my case simply puts on fat." This is where the bf issue comes into Slim. And i figure that 2 hours a day on top of this is not helping out very much. Bc if you overtrain youre muscles, and force yourself to gain at a certain weight...well its not gonna be all muscle that you gain if you dont have a chance to repair your muscle tissue.Originally Posted by ExtremeAnabolic
So now back to your post:
You said that eating more in your case puts on fat. Well, i assume that you have bulked and put on a lot of fat, or it makes no sense at all why you would say that. I figured since youre gaining fat, that you arent gaining much muscle since youre a "hard gainer" and that you were gaining too much not in muscle. You out to do some more reading on here.I never said I put on a lot of fat. Not sure where you are getting that. As for the rest of your post it doesn't make much sense. Who wouldn't want to gain more muscle than fat? And if I were gaining muscle why would I lower the ratio at which I was gaining?
Now no offense, but i really dont believe in hardgainers. You can always eat more than your maintenence and just get a decent routine. If youre not gaining well, look at the little things like water, sleep, cardio, etc youll find a weak link. Our body is one of the most efficient things in this world with all it can do. Gaining muscle isnt rocket science. ITs a lot more fun
(numbers are mine)Originally Posted by RBC13
1. We did? No we didn't. I said that a hardgainer is someone who has a hard time putting on muscle. As for fat I said "in MY case". As for the 2 hours I eventually figured out that was not working and switched to a lower volume 1-2 bodyparts per day routine.
2. Again I never said "a lot of fat". A few inches around the waist though is noticeable if you are quite slim to begin with. But over time if you have gained fat, why continue on the same path? Funny that you should say "reading" (see point 3).
3. I recommend Stuart McRobert's book "Beyond Brawn". You might change your mind about hardgainers after reading that.
Even eating more than maintance and having a decent even great routine, with plenty of rest, water and sleep, a person can still grow very slowly. If your genetics dictate that you will be small, you can still look quite muscular, but it will take a lot more time than someone who has say Ronnie Coleman or Jay Cutler genetics. Genetics affect everything from how big you get to how fast you gain. If you have very bad genetics, it will take a long time to get big, if indeed you ever do. Someone at five feet one inch, with a very small bone structure does just not have the potential to be big (at least to the point where people take a second look)
Last edited by Songsangnim; 01-02-2006 at 02:01 AM.
Or they might be eating enough but not optimizing their muscle gains because they're essentially sugarburners instead of fatburners. Insulin sensitivity is too low. I'm an ectomorph myself and over the years I've tried a lot of things. It's never been better than this year: I'm eating fewer calories, but I am optimizing my metabolism's reaction to added protein and its reaction to build new muscle. I've essentially drastically reduced my carb intake, especially carbs with high glycemic load (such as starches). I'm almost on a paleo diet.
Compare that with early last year, when I went with the general advice given to ectomorphs who struggle with weight gain: I just upped calories, ate a lot of carbs and proteins... I gained weight, but a lot of it was fat. The more I was gaining weight and increasing my calories, the more the ratio of muscle gain/fat gain was shrinking. Turns out my insulin levels were increasing all the time, and this made a lot of the protein become useless and lead to increased fat instead of increased muscle.
We might actually be agreeing... I just really think that it is essential to stress the importance of insulin when giving advice to "hardgainers". Otherwise they might make the same mistakes as me last year and just go overboard with carb/protein intake.
This is RIDICULOUS! We are all humans - homo sapiens. There aren't 'sugarburners' and 'fatburners'(not to any significant degree). You're a sugar burner if you eat too much sugar! Fix your diet.Originally Posted by Mikael
Here's the thing... Regardless of genetics, virtually any untrained individual can put on 15-20lbs of muscle with proper training, EATING, and recovery. If you put 2 guys on a high calorie, high protein/fat diet while training them on a routine based on heavy compound movements, they'll both get bigger and stronger regardless of 'hardgainers' and 'sugar burners'.
Sorry, but that's incorrect.Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
Last edited by Slim Schaedle; 01-01-2006 at 04:51 PM.
If you eat more sugar, your body gets better at metabolizing it...Originally Posted by Slim Schaedle
First, where did you get this?Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
Second, what direct relevance does this have to your comment "You're a sugar burner if you eat too much sugar! Fix your diet" and my response "Sorry, but that's incorrect."
No. This is absolutely incorrect. Sugar LEACHES vitamins and minerals from your body. The more you eat of it, the more vitamins and minerals it depletes from your body. If your body then has a deficit of vitamins and minerals it will not be better at anything ESPECIALLY metabolizing food.Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
Please read up on this subject BEFORE speaking about it. Thank you
I never said that some people were born "sugarburners" and others "fatburners" like it's a different species or something. It's all about what you feed to your body (and actually, now that I think about it, genetics do obviously play a role in this).Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
You're completely right, "fix your diet" is the proper advice for a sugarburner. The problem is that some hardgainers/ectomorphs/skinny bastards/whatever you want to call them will come to this forum and most of the time they'll be told to "shut up and eat" or something similar. That's what happened to me last year. I completely overdid it, I was thinking in very linear terms (more calories: more muscle, less calories: less muscle, lots and lots of protein and carbs necessary) forgetting about other crucial variables like insulin. I could've made the same muscle gains without the added fat, with less calories, by priming my metabolism for muscle building and fat burning; instead of sugar burning and fat storage.
Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
So because we are all "homo sapiens" one person can't have high insulin levels and another person have low levels? Given that then both people would respond to your above mentioned diet differently. Some people have to eat differently than others. Ever hear of lactose intolerance? Just as some people have lactose intolerance so do some people's bodies convert protein to sugar more readily than do others.
They will both get bigger and stronger, but who's to say that they wouldn't have gotten even bigger and stronger on a different diet?
Last edited by Songsangnim; 01-02-2006 at 02:10 AM.