I thought this was an interesting enough discussion to merit a new thread...
Not sure I agree with you here Meat... Most people, including athletes, have absolute horrific form on power cleans. There is no triple extension and it often little more than a short leg dip and a swing...Originally Posted by xMeat_HeadxActually power and hang olympic lifts are far more effective for athletics in general as they allow you to overload that explosive pull and shrug without the deep knee bend. The deep squat in the full oly lifts pretty much all about form, balance, and flexibility.
I'm no expert on the olympic lifts, but Gary Valentine, a many time masters national champion, is. Here is a post he made at another forum speaking about a forum member's refusal to do full cleans (the person he is talking about is, btw, a semi-regular at WBB...)
Definately food for thought....Originally Posted by Gary ValentineWell, this is pretty interesting guys, mind if i jump in?! One of the things i see often relating to OL, and seems to be XXX's view (my best guess with info provided) is that its somehow more manly to do a "power" or "muscle" clean than a squat clean! even if its with less weight than our 48 kg women do. take the following quote from XXX - "yeah but then it wouldn't be a powerclean anymore I don't consider a hamstrings down to parallel a powerclean, that's like no man's land." Now, donít misunderstand me here. any lifting is good, and people should do whatever they enjoy. But, as was sharply picked up on by Demir above in my advice "for YEARS" to XXX is true - the power clean is an assistance lift, and a poor one at that, done this way anyway. I especially donít teach it to beginners. Watching XXX is proof of why. Again, I am not knocking him at all, I am speaking purely about learning how to lift weights. For whatever reason, he is clinging to pulling the weight higher with his arms only, very, very unsafe and inefficient - NOT A POWERCLEAN!.
Watch his vids closely, especially this latest miss with 229. Right from the floor, and certainly as the bar gets to mid thigh, the hips rise faster than the head, the arms bend too soon, the mid back especially rounds out - all in preparation to use these muscles for a high pull swing jump with back and arms. YOU CANNOT SQUAT CLEAN THIS WAY! You have no idea where the bar will land if you swing it like that with your back, and any successful attempts will be lucky catches at best. The legs have straightened and are useless at this point. What really bothers me here is people think that this is strength. This is not strength. This is poor biomechanics, the continued practice of which will do nothing but dig a deeper hole motor pattern-wise and will have to be reversed, if possible, to someday lift big weight.
Please, I'm 47 and I snatch that for triples regularly at the same bodyweight. I'm not bragging, I'm pointing out that throwing around light weights inefficiently should not be called "strength". Itís ignorance of proper technique, which is nothing to be proud of. When that ignorance is on purpose, it bothers me. Again, i do not mean "ignorance" in a derogatory way. I mean he just doesnít know the right way,(which is why i tried to help him), but if thatís on purpose because of some he-man stubborness to do more weight without technique, then that is ignorance to the point of stupidity, regardless of who does it. And good points above too, that sometime this is done to avoid any real comparisons to others - the "imagine what I could do if I had technique" routine. Ridiculous.
Need more proof? Stand in a power rack with 500 or more loaded on long pins just above knee height. Try upright rowing it, or reverse curling it. Didnít move did it? Now try to just stand up and shrug it with straight arms, keeping low back tight as you come off pins. Thatís weightlifing in a nutshell. Anything you can stand up with hard like that and get moving past your bellybutton with momentum, you should be able to clean - if youíre
fast, crazy enough to jump under it, and strong enough to stand up with it. Iíve done a double with 810 standing up from the pins, and didnít go higher only because we couldnít fit more on the bar (I have photos). Is that technique, or strength???
Yes, I said he could be doing 275 if he'd learn how, but he has not learned how, and will not learn how with this technique. Put it this way, if he was power cleaning correctly, a squat clean would be a snap - the pull should not be different! And here's the crux of what Iíve learned in OL for 25 years, having done BB and PL early on. OL takes courage. great power, athletic skill, and yes courage. You have to be crazy to actually get off the ground and fly under weights that weigh much more than you. I believe this is
why people cling to the "pull it higher" mentality with baby weights. And this is why "power cleaning" this way is not power cleaning, and is detrimental. When you stand up with the weight with a solid spine and straight arms and violently jump and shrug it, you either have to get off the ground momentarily and fly under it with amazing body speed, or wimp out by standing there and pulling it up with arms and back, feet glued to the
ground. You can not do both. Period. Joe Mills called it "lifting with abandon". THAT is a different world. No spotter. Just you and the weight. This is athletic body awareness, combined with great power. I do not criticize those not willing to "go there", especially without coaching. But, it can be learned, step by step very safely with empty bar, for those who have the patience. So, if it feels good, do it. But, if you want to lift
the big weights, learn how to use your body. Itís not about competing as a weightlifter or not. Itís training correctly, efficiently and safely, and the way that gets the most weight overhead.