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Thread: Best training article EVER!

  1. #1
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Best training article EVER!

    http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do...ydra?id=880036

    What a quote:

    "T-Nation: Good point there! Back to what you said about calves. There's a lesson there for the hypertrophy oriented. I mean, a guy has 45 minutes to train during his lunch break and he spends ten minutes of that on direct calf work. Yet the biggest calves I've ever seen are on men who don't train them directly!

    Tate: Everyone wants to major in the minor ****. A lot of people love training calves because it's easy. Compare a calf raise to a bent-over row. Which one is the pussy going to choose? It makes me sick to see how most people train today.
    I still like to say that we're the most overeducated, under-producing group of trainers and coaches ever. The one thing that's never changed is that you still have to work hard. It seems that a lot of people and a lot of programs are trying to sidestep that one main issue. But you gotta go in there and you gotta bust your ass! People need to quit looking for the easy way out and get to work."
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  2. #2
    Breaker of Skulls Guido's Avatar
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    Heh. That was a good article. The man speaks the truth.
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  3. #3
    *Bingo Fuel clawhammer_33's Avatar
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    Good article

  4. #4
    Banned ROMANMAN's Avatar
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    Nice read

  5. #5
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    I didn't care much for partI. Part II is gold, absolute Gold!!!
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    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
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  6. #6
    Senior Member getfit's Avatar
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    pretty good read
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maki Riddington
    I didn't care much for partI. Part II is gold, absolute Gold!!!
    I couldn't find part II. Can you give me a link when you have a chance? Thanks.

    -Tim

  8. #8
    The Flyfisher rbtrout's Avatar
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    Excellent read. It's about time some one actually talked about getting bigger by just squatting and indrect work.
    Give chalk a chance.


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  9. #9
    Wannabe Rick James Genacide's Avatar
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    Link not working for me, anyone else have problems? Can someone post the article?
    Thx
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  10. #10
    *Bingo Fuel clawhammer_33's Avatar
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    Face it: biceps are the muscle that classifies you as a muscle man.

    Striding across the fields, carrying a vorpal blade, cometh Clawhammer! And he gives a bloodthirsty bellow:

    "As sure as predators devour prey, I shall paint the town a sanguine shade of doom!!!"
    Hilarity

  11. #11
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    I love Date Tate and I love WS, but I don't know about this...
    I worked with a taller lifter recently who was interested in overall mass. One of the problems he was having was leg mass and the overall gains he was receiving from squatting.

    I found out he was squatting with a twelve inch stance, doing rock bottom squats. Now, that's a great quad exercise, but as far as a mass building exercise, it's not going to be as good as a wide box squat.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
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  12. #12
    Senior Member noahfor123's Avatar
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    Yea. As I understand it, he is basically saying that with a shorter range of motion, a person can do a heavier weight, and the heavier weight will elicit more muscular growth, but that's true for all exercises Isn't a greater range of motion preferred over a heavier weight? I didn't get that either. Maybe I am not understanding something.

  13. #13
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noahfor123
    Yea. As I understand it, he is basically saying that with a shorter range of motion, a person can do a heavier weight, and the heavier weight will elicit more muscular growth, but that's true for all exercises Isn't a greater range of motion preferred over a heavier weight? I didn't get that either. Maybe I am not understanding something.
    Not quite. He is saying that bigger muscles (gluts and hams) are pretty much fully activated with the wide stance/smaller ROM, and to achieve maximum overall growth, hit the biggest muscles with their maximum load. Narrow rock bottom squats will necessarily be well under the maximum load of a PL style squat for those larger muscles and thus not optimal for their growth.

    What this doesn't consider is aesthetic development, but I sort of doubt that is Dave Tate's biggest concern.

    The journal / I live here.

    If I were to start from scratch as a young 13 year old again, I would do every press, squat, and perhaps deadlifts, for my entire career with chains. -- Dan John

  14. #14
    Strength & Protection Kiaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash
    Not quite. He is saying that bigger muscles (gluts and hams) are pretty much fully activated with the wide stance/smaller ROM, and to achieve maximum overall growth, hit the biggest muscles with their maximum load. Narrow rock bottom squats will necessarily be well under the maximum load of a PL style squat for those larger muscles and thus not optimal for their growth.

    What this doesn't consider is aesthetic development, but I sort of doubt that is Dave Tate's biggest concern.
    Who wants to be pretty anyway! I just want to have a pair of treetrunks.
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  15. #15
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash
    Not quite. He is saying that bigger muscles (gluts and hams) are pretty much fully activated with the wide stance/smaller ROM, and to achieve maximum overall growth, hit the biggest muscles with their maximum load. Narrow rock bottom squats will necessarily be well under the maximum load of a PL style squat for those larger muscles and thus not optimal for their growth.

    What this doesn't consider is aesthetic development, but I sort of doubt that is Dave Tate's biggest concern.
    Yeah, I get that, but if you're a bodybuilder I really doubt you're going to be prioritizing your ass and hammies unless they are really lagging...

    Personally, I agree w. you Kiaran, but if I was training a BBer, I'm not sure I'd be putting them on a box...
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
    Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
    Blog: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

  16. #16
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei
    Yeah, I get that, but if you're a bodybuilder I really doubt you're going to be prioritizing your ass and hammies unless they are really lagging...

    Personally, I agree w. you Kiaran, but if I was training a BBer, I'm not sure I'd be putting them on a box...
    Well, yes, but I don't think Tate is psychologically capable of not thinking like a powerlifter. Which is quite clear because, indeed, virtually no bodybuilder would be prioritizing their ass and hammies over their quads.

    The journal / I live here.

    If I were to start from scratch as a young 13 year old again, I would do every press, squat, and perhaps deadlifts, for my entire career with chains. -- Dan John

  17. #17
    Senior Member
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    Excellent article. I liked the bit about intuitive training, it made a lot of sense.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash
    Well, yes, but I don't think Tate is psychologically capable of not thinking like a powerlifter. Which is quite clear because, indeed, virtually no bodybuilder would be prioritizing their ass and hammies over their quads.
    I disagree, most people have terrible hamstring development because all they do are some half-assed leg curls.
    Last edited by Deadlifter; 01-13-2006 at 03:19 PM.

  19. #19
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlifter
    I disagree, most people have terrible hamstring development because all they do are some half-assed leg curls.
    No kidding. I was talking about a trained, well developed bodybuilder.

    Everyone else needs serious PC work.

    The journal / I live here.

    If I were to start from scratch as a young 13 year old again, I would do every press, squat, and perhaps deadlifts, for my entire career with chains. -- Dan John

  20. #20
    mrelwooddowd Patz's Avatar
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    You know..I've been stressing about being able to get in the small stuff, like calves, and I'm having a hard enough time staying consistent lately as it is. I think I'm gonna write myself a new routine, and focus on the classics only. My damned calves are already 18.5..lol As usual, I've been letting the MINOR details over-complicate me.
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  21. #21
    As I Am Paul Stagg's Avatar
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    It's important to understand who Tate is talking to when he references instinctive training.

    Hint: NOT a 18 year old who weighs 170 pounds.

    I agree with him generally about building your own routine, but I think he overemphasizes the benefits of cybernetic periodization for the general bodybuiling population - most of whom can't even figure out what their weaknesses are, much less be able to really tell when they need to take a break, or change something, or whatever.
    Squats work better than supplements.
    "You know, if I thought like that, I'd never put more than one plate on the bar for anything, I'd never use bands or chains, I'd never squat to parallel or below, and I'd never let out the slightest grunt when I lift. At some point in your lifting career (assuming you're planning on getting reasonably strong and big), you're going to have to accept that most people think you are some kind of freak." -Sensei
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  22. #22
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    I think that "cybernetic" does not mean what Dave Tate thinks it means.

    The journal / I live here.

    If I were to start from scratch as a young 13 year old again, I would do every press, squat, and perhaps deadlifts, for my entire career with chains. -- Dan John

  23. #23
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei
    Yeah, I get that, but if you're a bodybuilder I really doubt you're going to be prioritizing your ass and hammies unless they are really lagging...

    Personally, I agree w. you Kiaran, but if I was training a BBer, I'm not sure I'd be putting them on a box...
    Anyone who isn't prioritizing their ass and hammies over quads is misguided. The posterior chain muscles are the biggest and strongest in the body, your overall mass and strength is dependent on their development. Your quads will only get so big if your posterior chain is underdeveloped, and that holds you back even as a bodybuilder.

    His whole idea is taking care of the essentials so you can further improve on the smaller less important things. Do the exercises that allow you to move the most poundage, as those make you bigger and stronger overall the fastest. After you've done that you can break down your weaknesses and address them with your routine.

    Besides, its virtually impossible to effectively train quads without hitting the glutes hard, and vice versa.
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  24. #24
    I wannabebig!
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    if i had a choice to do rows or calf raises i would choose rows.... i hate working calves

  25. #25
    Sculpted by Science brickt.'s Avatar
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    This is a quote from part two that I liked:

    "I talk to the average muscle magazine reader and ask him what his goals are. "Well, I wanna get bigger," he says. What the **** does that mean? You want to gain twenty pounds or what? What are your indicators? And the guy can't really tell me.

    You know what? If you want to get bigger and you want to maintain a certain degree of leanness, why not take your ****ing body fat, measure your body parts, weigh yourself, and then check these indicators every three or four weeks? If you have those indicators and some goals an inch on your arms, 10% body fat at 240, whatever and at the end of the time period nothing changed, well, guess what? It didn't ****ing work; change what you're doing!"
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