The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    The Value of Bodyweight Exercises

    I thought that it was too bad that the push-up thread was locked. It would have been nice just to see the useless and inflammatory posts culled...

    I just wanted to add that bodyweight exercises CAN be mass-building exercises. Bodyweight exercises can be progressive. There are a huge variety of bodyweight exercises that can be performed and, just like w. a barbell or dumbell, literally hundreds of variations that can be performed with regard to tempo, speed, volume, range of motion, hand/foot placement - body position, etc...

    Bodyweight exercises have their uses, IMHO, even elite bodybuilder and powerlifting routines.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
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  3. #2
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    While I think pushups are(aside from a little pressing endurance) pretty useless, I agree with your premise. Bodyweight exercises aren't bad or useless by any means. Its simply a matter of what you want to accomplish. Certain bodyweight exercises can stimulate alot of gains in size and strength, but you will almost never see someone on a bodyweight only routine with impressive muscle mass/strength. Obviously, they make you very good at moving your bodyweight around, and can be quite handy for bringing up weaknesses and preventing injury. I don't beleive their affect on external resistance strength is very pronounced however, at least not for a long period of time.
    Last edited by Meat_Head; 02-07-2006 at 02:36 PM.
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  4. #3
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    I like body weight exercises. I think they can be a real test of strength.


    It's funny how people change their responses depending on the person.
    Last edited by Brink; 02-07-2006 at 02:39 PM.

  5. #4
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    There are plenty of gymnasts with amazing upper bodies. I've seen more than a few gymnasts and bicyclists who came into the gym and bench and squatted 2x bodyweight with little or no training experience...

    edit: Look at sprint cyclists' legs sometime - they are impressive.
    Last edited by Sensei; 02-07-2006 at 02:43 PM.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
    Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
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  6. #5
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brink
    I like body weight exercises. I think they can be a real test of strength.


    It's funny how people change their responses depending on the person.
    Someone ban this kid already...

    I didn't change my response about pushups, I never said anything bad about bodyweight exercises on the whole.
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  7. #6
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    What I said in the other thread:

    I found pushups quite useful when I didnt have access to a bench and weights.

    I started off struggling to do 15 but after a week and a bit I could do 50 in one go quite easily.

    I got back to the gym and my bench had gone up. I can't attribute it 100% to pushups (other factors like rest, diet, taking a break etc) but I reckon it might have helped. By building endurance you might be able to do more reps on bench press. I doubt pushups will directly increase your strength or make you grow though.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei
    There are plenty of gymnasts with amazing upper bodies. I've seen more than a few gymnasts and bicyclists who came into the gym and bench and squatted 2x bodyweight with little or no training experience...
    I believe it.

    And I wouldnt want to have a wrestling match with any of these people, because of how they train. It seems like their training tactics are really explosive, and powerful.



    and meethead....stop causing drama STILL after the first thread is closed.
    Last edited by Brink; 02-07-2006 at 02:44 PM.

  9. #8
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei
    There are plenty of gymnasts with amazing upper bodies. I've seen more than a few gymnasts and bicyclists who came into the gym and bench and squatted 2x bodyweight with little or no training experience...
    True, but their training is far from typical bodyweight training and exercises. I would attribute a great deal of their mass to pullups and dips, which they do constantly in their fitness and event training.
    Last edited by Meat_Head; 02-07-2006 at 02:43 PM.
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  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
    True, but their training is far from typical bodyweight training and exercises. I would attribute a great deal of their mass to pullups and dips, which they do constantly in their fitness and event training.

    Pullups and Dips= Non-Typical body weight exercises?


    -According to xMeat_Headx


    you contradict your self so much I wont even elaborate.

  11. #10
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
    True, but their training is far from typical bodyweight training and exercises. I would attribute a great deal of their mass to pullups and dips, which they do constantly in their fitness and event training.
    You are being argumentative. Gymnasts and cyclists are examples of what can be achieved with nothing but bodyweight exercises.

    Dips and pull-ups are bodyweight exercises, no?
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
    Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
    Blog: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei
    You are being argumentative. Gymnasts and cyclists are examples of what can be achieved with nothing but bodyweight exercises.

    Dips and pull-ups are bodyweight exercises, no?


    Meethead says their not, so they must not be. Oh yeah, im the idiot.

  13. #12
    Senior Member getfit's Avatar
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    umm ,let's keep this nice ok folks, thanks
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  14. #13
    Fury Divine RickTheDestroyer's Avatar
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    Muscle-ups on rings are probably also pretty great mass/strength builders.
    Someone posted a link to a bunch of bodyweight gymnast-style exercises a year or so ago... it was pretty interesting, although I'm not in any hurry to give up my iron.
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  15. #14
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brink
    Pullups and Dips= Non-Typical body weight exercises?


    -According to xMeat_Headx


    you contradict your self so much I wont even elaborate.
    Who is causing drama? I'm done with you, its obvious to all that you are a dip**** with nothing better to do than act like a guru online.
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  16. #15
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei
    You are being argumentative. Gymnasts and cyclists are examples of what can be achieved with nothing but bodyweight exercises.

    Dips and pull-ups are bodyweight exercises, no?
    I'm always argumentative! That's one of the ways I learn...

    MOST cyclists are unimpressive as far as aesthetics go. I've already admitted there are plenty of athletes who look great and train with nothing but their bodyweight. Dips and pullups are definately great bodyweight exercises, and gymnasts do them alot to build up a baseline of bodyweight strength from what I've heard. What I meant by my earlier statement is that their training on the rings, parallel bars, and other events often involve different kinds of pullups, dips, and supports at different angles and with different tecniques. THAT training is very different from just pumping out regular pullups and dips all day.
    Last edited by Meat_Head; 02-07-2006 at 02:58 PM.
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  17. #16
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    I also think bodyweight exercises are important. whats even better is when uve been overweight most of ure life or unfit for a long time and then you start being able to do dips and pull ups. then weighted dips and pull ups. At the moment i can do proper pull ups and would rather do them than anything else just because i can. Plus i think a good judgement of physical strength is being able to lift or dip your bodyweight comfortably in most shapes/form etc
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  18. #17
    In China tigo's Avatar
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    ^ very true.. i was so happy when i could do BW dips and pullups
    I don't have time. I make time.

  19. #18
    SFW! drew's Avatar
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    I have a friend who competes in Brazilian JiuJitsu and has recently started doing more BW work. I'm waiting to see how it affects his training. I'm not sure how great it would be for PLing, but for competitive martial arts, it makes a lot of sense.

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  20. #19
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Wow, there's a lot of stuff in here...
    Quote Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
    MOST cyclists are unimpressive as far as aesthetics go.
    Sprint cyclists have legs that most bodybuilders would die for. However, most modern track cyclists do train with weights.




    Quote Originally Posted by DenimDemon
    Muscle-ups on rings are probably also pretty great mass/strength builders.
    Good for strength. Not for mass. Muscle ups are hard because of the transition, not the load. Weighted dips and chins are far superior for adding mass.

    Quote Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
    True, but their training is far from typical bodyweight training and exercises. I would attribute a great deal of their mass to pullups and dips, which they do constantly in their fitness and event training.
    A chinup or dip is a trivial movement for a (male) gymnast, and much like a pushup for most people, will not do much to stimulate development. Gymnasts have impressive muscular development because they perform movements that create much higher loads on muscles than a chinup or dip, e.g. an iron cross requires extreme back, shoulder and arm strength. Note that these are almost all isometric holds after a dynamic motion, although there are plenty of press-outs from static positions as well.

    Also, gymnasts use primarily pylometric work for their legs, to build strength without mass.
    Last edited by MixmasterNash; 02-07-2006 at 03:57 PM.

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  21. #20
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash
    Wow, there's a lot of stuff in here...

    Sprint cyclists have legs that most bodybuilders would die for. However, most modern track cyclists do train with weights.


    Those are freaking massive legs... but like you said, they train with weights. I think sprint cyclists would have impressive legs either way, but you can't get close to what those guys have without some heavy ass squats!

    A chinup or dip is a trivial movement for a (male) gymnast, and much like a pushup for most people, will not do much to stimulate development. Gymnasts have impressive muscular development because they perform movements that create much higher loads on muscles than a chinup or dip, e.g. an iron cross requires extreme back, shoulder and arm strength. Note that these are almost all isometric holds after a dynamic motion, although there are plenty of press-outs from static positions as well.
    True... just to verify, that's what I meant by "What I meant by my earlier statement is that their training on the rings, parallel bars, and other events often involve different kinds of pullups, dips, and supports at different angles and with different tecniques. THAT training is very different from just pumping out regular pullups and dips all day."
    Last edited by Meat_Head; 02-07-2006 at 04:16 PM.
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  22. #21
    Fury Divine RickTheDestroyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash
    Good for strength. Not for mass. Muscle ups are hard because of the transition, not the load. Weighted dips and chins are far superior for adding mass.
    Ah. Fair enough.
    Although in my case I suspect they'd be pretty hard due to the load as well. Yay for being a fatass.

    And you weren't kidding about the beastly legs on those cyclists.
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  23. #22
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    Although I think it has to be said that gymnasts aren't actually all that big. They are incredibly strong no doubt, but gymnastics in general will never be the mass builder that weight training is.
    The gymnasts that look muscular are usually short, or genetically inclined to gain muscle easily. There are plenty of gymnasts who are quite skinny.

  24. #23
    eater of food dw06wu's Avatar
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    While I think that certain bodyweight movements/exercises definitely have their place, I do not, in any way shape or form, think that pushups belong in that category.

    Why not just go bench 1XX lbs a bunch? Same difference, basically.
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  25. #24
    Senior Member fat2fit's Avatar
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    didnt Charles Atlas use only bodyweight exersizes in his training? i know he isn't particularly big by todays standards but at the time he was pretty successful.

  26. #25
    Not Done Yet ShockBoxer's Avatar
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    Yes, sort of. He was pretty much the daddy of isometrics if you believe his biography. Body weight and body resistance excercises were what he did to train... but he would show off his strength with 'feats of strength' that involved moving heavy things just like in the World's Strongest Man contest.
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