You can not reduce the size of an area by doing direct work to that area. It may increase the size of the area, but lowering bf% is the only thing that will make it smaller.Originally Posted by 6punisher9
I feel sorry for the people you had do "medicine ball" work, because you were actually helping them increase the size of the area where they wanted to lose.
To the OPer: Do 1 ab lift 1 time per week (decline weighted crunches 3sets 6-8reps)
Ditch the hiit unless you feel the need to eat more on any given day.
hiit burns cals....and may help your cardiovascular system/heart.
Well, medicine ball work is great, but you are right that if they still have fat there, it will not look good. However, as far as making that area bigger? Most likely that won't be happening, at least not significantly.Originally Posted by muscleup
I'm a firm believer that if you want nice "X", you work on X. Not training your abs directly is pretty stupid if you ask me, if you're tryin to attain nice abs. Do you avoid working your chest if you want a nice chest? That doesn't mean you need to work abs 7 days a week, but I would train them just as much if not more than your other bodyparts seeing as they are used in just about everything you do, and could probably handle more volume.
My brother and I were brutal. I once chased him around the house with a spoon that I put on the burner. I burned that little pricks leg. -sharkall2003
Then I saw a little african boy sleeping, and I thought...that is little Okeke. he is tired from herding all the goats and the big goat got away today - Rock
Except you're not going to build abs on a cut.
On lower cals, the best you can hope for is to maintain muscle. A few short, weighted sets of abs once or twice a week would be a good idea though. Just like any other muscle.
Uhhhh... A few points of contention here... The first is that abs get worked in several other exercises. Dead Lifts, Squats, Lat Pull Downs, Tricept Push Downs, etc... The abs get awesome training through those exercises. I have seen several people have great stomach muscles, awesome stomach muscles without every doing a situp, or for that matter, working out.Originally Posted by HahnB
The reason we work our chest is because without directly working it, it probably is a muscle that would go unused. In addition, having a large chest and smaller stomach muscles looks better than the other way around. I have seen a few people with such huge abs and no chest, it looks ridiculous, but the other way around does not. Just my personal opinion is all.
If they are not in a calorie deficit it could increase the size of the waist or very easily keep it the same size.Originally Posted by ArchAngel777
What type of medicine ball work is great during a calorie deficit, besides doing the movements in a hiit fashion only to burn cals?
CHEST N BACK=
Dumbbell Incline Press 3x9
Flat Dumbbell Flies 3x9
Wide Grip Pull Downs 3x9
Decline Barbell Bench Press 3x9
Seated Cable Row 3x9
Leg Press 2x11
Leg Extensions 2x11
Hamstring Curl 2x11
Seated/Standing Calf Raises 2x15
military press 2x9
lateral raises 2x9
behind the back barbell shrugs 2x9
Skull Crushers 3x9-11
Dumbbell Curls 3x9-11
Hammer Curls 3x9
this is my crazy plan lol
If they are not on a calorie deficit then they would be an idiot anyways, for hoping to reduce that area while eating more than that they need... I am sorry, your logic isn't very good here.Originally Posted by muscleup
I mean, here is the deal... If someone is dieting and working their abs the worst case scenario is that they overtrain and loose the muscle in that region for constantly tearing it down. I don't see how it would ever get bigger from either over training or undertraining during a diet down.
On a bulk I would agree with you, but bulking and hoping to see your abs when they are covered with fat is not only far out there, it just will not happen.
Last edited by ArchAngel777; 02-09-2006 at 11:55 AM.
Rep range is kinda high for a cut.Originally Posted by kique
Ditch the wide grips - hard on rotator cuffs, easy on lats. Narrow up the grip and the converse becomes true.
Not seing any deadlifts in there - your posterior chain (hamstring and back) development suffers because of this. Shrugs are a poor substitute for deadlifts.
so you want me to throw in deadlifts in exchange for wide grips on back day.
take into considerationg i want to widen or grow the "wings"
Ok, if we are talking "General population" then there is nothing at all wrong with my logic. Most people in the gym probably don't even know what a calorie deficit is. Unless you track everything you eat during the day, it is very hard to determine how many cals you are getting day in and day out. (Unless you have had past experience)Originally Posted by ArchAngel777
I'm sure you have seen fat guys in the gym trying to spot reduce away their lovely handles by doing side bends or leg lifts or crunches, thinking that will help the fat "fall off". Good-Game, but wrong.
Think of how many people waist their time in the gym doing these exercises. Now think of why they tend to quit. The area they went into the gym to improve, either A) stayed the same or B)increased in size because they were not in a calorie deficit and those lifts actually increased the muscle mass under the blubber.
Originally Posted by muscleup
Well, this isn't the general population here. People that are uninformed will continue to do things that have no affect and their composition. That doesn't they should cease to do those exercises, it just means they have to do more research on weight loss.
But beyond that we are dealing within this forum and specifically in this post. Therefore we are dealing with people that have the right information... So I see no problem.
I only posted because punisher was recomending spot reduction medicine ball exercises as if it would work.Originally Posted by ArchAngel777
Specific to this thread, regarding the love handle question. That question has nothing to do with routine and everything to do with calorie intake. Want to lose the love handles? keep on cutting...simple.
I mentioned to do 1 ab lift 1 time each week...weighted decline crunches.
and that is only because the oper is so adament about doing ab work.
Squats, deads and chins should have enough ab work involvement to keep that muscle during the cut duration, so in all reality, ab work on a cut is really not even needed.
Working them on a bulk makes sense if you want them to grow.
But like someone already said, big abs and small chest looks odd. Big chest and small abs looks good. Keeping them small but strong can usually be acheived with no direct work at all.
Exchange narrow grips or shoulder width grips for wide grips on back day.Originally Posted by kique
Do deadlifts instead of shrugs.
Wide grip won't make you wide. A wide grip sends more stress to the rotator cuff and LESS to the lats. You want the stress on the lats to grow wings, not on the rotator cuff.
Wide grips for width is one of those myths, unfortunately:
Back & Biceps (It's Not What You Think!)
by Paul Sorace, M.S.Exercise Physiologist
Many people who strength train develop the habit of "doing the exercise". A good example to examine would be chin-ups and pulldowns. People "do" chin-ups because "it" targets the back with assisting work from the biceps. Depending on your strength level, chin-ups can either be performed with your bodyweight or with added weight attached to your body. If you cannot perform chin-ups with your full bodyweight, there are machines (i.e.- Gravitron) that have a counter weight to assist you. Chin-ups are more difficult than pulldowns. A good rule of thumb is to perform pulldowns with a supinated grip (palms facing you) until you can use 10% more than your bodyweight for reps. At that point, you should be ready to perform chin-ups with your bodyweight. If doing this, remember to perform the pulldowns the same way you will the chin-ups. Pulldowns can be done in a number of ways, using a number of different bars \ handles. Chin-ups are also performed in a variety of ways but they are most commonly performed with shoulder extension using a supinated grip.
If you don't understand how the body works, you are likely to do the exercise improperly. Someone who doesn't understand proper biomechanics will likely pull up until his or her chin is above the bar (not to mention with the shoulders shrugged). Is this the end point of the concentric (lifting) phase? For most it won't be. Why? Well, this exercise requires shoulder extension, scapular retraction \ depression, and elbow flexion. However, the major movement is shoulder extension, which is performed primarily by the latissimus dorsi (FYI- other muscles involved in shoulder extension include the teres major, posterior deltoids, sternal head of the pectoralis major, and the long head of the triceps). Full shoulder extension is when the upper arm (humerus) is in line with rib cage (torso).
Shoulder hyperextension, performed primarily by the posterior deltoid, is when the arm and elbow go behind the torso, past the anatomical position. Almost always with chin-ups, the chest must come into contact with the bar to complete a full range of motion (ROM). With only the chin over the bar, the humerus will usually be several inches forward of the torso. "Doing" the exercise this way neglects a full ROM. Lacking a full ROM will create a muscle imbalance within the muscle. The muscle(s) will not be strengthened in the fully contracted position and joint flexibility can be reduced. Maybe the exercise should be re-named chest-ups?
Another aspect to look at for proper form here is the biceps. The biceps muscle is and should be the main assisting muscle during chin-ups. While other elbow flexors include the brachioradialis, brachialis, and even the pronator teres, the biceps is the largest and strongest of the elbow flexors. However, many people have a tendency to start a pulldown \ chin-up by pulling with their biceps. Initiating or leading the movement with the hands typically does this, since the biceps have their insertion on the radius (radial tubercle, bicipital aponeurosis). This is not the proper execution. Since the back muscles are the prime mover here, you should initiate the movement by pulling or leading with the elbows and retracting your shoulder blades (scapula). This is because the "lats" insert on the upper arm (proximal anterior \ medial aspect of the intertubercular groove). Using the biceps should be secondary. After initiating the pull with the elbows and the shoulder blades, the elbows will then bend (flex) as the pull continues. Whether you hold the scapula retraction throughout or momentarily release it after each rep is optional. Regardless, if you perform the exercise properly, the biceps will naturally come into play after the back muscles initiate the movement.
The grip used also plays critical role in maximizing the effectiveness of the exercise. We all can do more chin-ups or pulldowns with palms facing you (supinated) grip compared to palms forward (pronated) grip. The biceps, along with flexing the elbow, also supinate the hand. For illustration purposes, fully flex your arm with the hand pronated. Once you complete elbow flexion, hold that position and supinate the hand. You will feel the bicep moving and changing shape. What's happening is the bicep is completing its contraction. So performing elbow flexion in a pronated position does not allow the biceps muscle to fully contract and in turn produce as much force as it is capable of (maximal muscle fiber recruitment).
Along with being able to fully contract in a supinated position, the bicep is also given a direct line or angle of pull with hand supination, which will allow for a maximal contraction. Its line of pull is poor with hand pronation. This is because the radius crosses over the ulna during pronation, changing its angle of pull to one that is less direct than with hand supination. So a pronated grip will not allow the biceps to fully contract and whatever contraction is possible will not be maximal due to the poor angle of pull.
The result is a decreased involvement from the biceps during elbow flexion. A supinated grip places your biceps in a "position of strength". You will be able to achieve more reps \ weight and ultimately work your back muscles to a deeper level of fatigue using a supinated grip. Hand supination will allow you to use about 15% more weight during pulldowns \ chin-ups as compared to a pronated grip. From a personal standpoint, I can currently perform pulldowns to the chest (shoulder extension) with 190 lbs. for 8-10 reps using a supinated grip. If I perform the exact same pulldown with a pronated grip, I can only get 160 lbs. for 8-10 reps. Do the math. During arm curls, it's more towards a 40% increase in strength with a supinated vs. pronated grip.
Regardless of hand grip uses, the biceps will inevitably fatigue first during pulldowns, chin-ups, rows, or any compound back exercise. So why make the weak link even weaker by placing the biceps in a disadvantageous position? A supinated grip is more desirable.
One more example of matching biomechanics to proper exercise technique is hand spacing. Many like to use a wide-grip for pulldowns \ chin-ups. For this purpose, I am referring to pulldowns \ chin-ups to the chest using shoulder adduction as the primary function. The "concept" is that using a wide grip will make your back wide?! The hand placement used should be shoulder-width or slightly wider and I do mean slightly. When you go to the extreme outside, as most do when doing "wide-grip" pulldowns, the movement of the humerus is restricted. The back muscles will not achieve a full stretch or a full contraction. This is an interesting point because many claim that a wide grip is good to "stretch" the back. Yet a narrower grip will stretch the back more. Narrow the hand spacing to shoulder-width or slightly wider and notice how much greater the movement of the humerus becomes. The degree of movement by the humerus determines the degree to which the "lats" are worked. More humerus movement equals greater "lat" work. If one switches from an excessively wide hand placement to a narrower one, their weight will almost certainly be lessened but the exercise will now be considerably more productive. By the way, don't swing back as you pulldown just so you can "use" more weight. You will "use" more weight but you won't work your muscles any harder. In fact, it will be just the opposite, not to mention higher risk for muscoskeletal injury.
thats good info thx.
one quetion ive had in mind before he didnt mention.
while doing pull downs which is best over the back or front to top of chest?
oh another thing lol , why do are you suggesting to do deadlifts on shoulder days, reason i do shrugs is for my traps so i dont want to cancel that if i can do deadlifts on back day
GEEZ, MUSCLEUP, the next thing you're gonna tell me is that there isn't a Santa Claus. I never said to spot train, if I was gonna tell him that then I would have thrown in the whole "get the electric ab shocker to reduce fat and add muscle". Or rap plastic around the part of your body you want to get smaller so you sweat it out faster. I mean that's what I told ALL my clients. Was that bad? People need to relax on this site.
6'3 250 lbs
bp - 300
Trainer for 2 years
12 painful years of working out.
1 year illegally.
"I didn't go to seven years of medical school to be called Mr., Thank you."
This insinuates spot reducing love handles by medicine ball exercises.Originally Posted by 6punisher9
There is no Santa Claus.
And I am very relaxed.
NoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooOriginally Posted by muscleup
Awww snap..Mik wasn't supposed to see that.Originally Posted by Mik
If you even think of telling me lies about the easter bunny I swear I won't be held liable.............Originally Posted by muscleup
You've ruined me. All I was saying was he could do it as an extra exercise. I don't know about you but I get bored of doing the same thing over and over again. It was just a suggestion for a alternate exercise to help get the abs more defined and or cut. Just cause you hate me doesn't mean you have to ruin Christmas for everybody on this site. Sorry Mik, Santa died of cardiac arrest. He didn't use the medicine ball enough to spot train his heart....j/k muscleup, I'm just funnin'.
6'3 250 lbs
bp - 300
Trainer for 2 years
12 painful years of working out.
1 year illegally.
"I didn't go to seven years of medical school to be called Mr., Thank you."
LOL, this dude is a RIOT (I work right next to him)... Anyway, Matt knows as we regularly discuss such things in person... He just goofs off a lot.Originally Posted by 6punisher9
dude your not fat at all, i wish i looked like that actually. so props to ya
anyways your probably around 6-7% bodyfat (im no expert at all im just throwing out some numbers). Usually your six packs should already be showing by now, but it looks like you only have about 2-3 pounds of fat to lose before they are showing. So basically just diet for 2-3 weeks and you should be good to go. Usually you'd diet more but you already have so little fat on you to begin with. workout 3-4 days depending on your scedule. Do cardio the other 3 (jump rope, HITT, morning jog) whatever you want is fine. Eat around 2000-2500 cals. and you'll be seeing that six pack soon.