ive been on a 3set of 6-8rep workout for 8 weeks now. Im thinking of changing to 10sets of 3. Is this good for building mass?
Uhh...... be a little more specific. How many sets of what exercises would you do on which days, etc. and are you talking about upping the weight to where you can ONLY do 3 reps until failure, or just keeping the same weight, less reps, less intensity but more sets? More details!
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Chad Waterbury swears by it. Sounds interesting.
Poo is also LBM - The Built
Sounds interesting. Maybe I'll give it a try for a week or two and see what kind of results I get.
The routine works, it is good for the big 3 and also for people having trouble with pull-ups and dips.
I was thinking of changing my set/rep routine around because i found that my deadlifts were improving alot more then my bench and squat.My bench and squat was 5x5 and my deadlift was 6x3.
So i might give this a go on the big three.
I imagine something like the following for the big muscles groups would rock:
Flat BB Press 10 x 3
Incline DB Press 3 x 8-10
Same setup for Deads, Squats, Military Press
Poo is also LBM - The Built
Chad Waterbury advocates more full body training, and I definitely agree with him - split body part routines are boring, time consuming, and not as effective unless you're at the very advanced stages of bodybuilding.Originally Posted by DumbDude
A typical upper body workout emphasizing 10x3 would include something like:
Barbell flat bench 10x3 with 5 RM, 60-70 seconds rest after each exercise (Do bench, rest, do rows, rest, bench, repeat).
Bent over barbell rows
Weighted pullups 4x6 (60-70 seconds rest between exercises)
Barbell military press or dips
Something of that nature. What you have mentioned above is too typical and the rep ranges are all over the place.
This sounds good. so would doing this upper body wokrout dont on Mon. then a lower body workout done on thursday be ok or is that to infrequent?Originally Posted by Deadlifter
Theres alot to be said for full-body workouts... but there is alot to be said for isolation also.
Personally, when I was doing full-body I felt like I was doing both too little and too much at the same time. Not working what I wanted to work to get definition in the right spots while overtraining core groups.
I do not think isolation is only for people 'in the later stages of bodybuilding' because this is a lifestyle. It may have an origin in your life, but may not have an end. I am not talking about competition level stuff here... but staying fit, keeping in shape, and making gains where you want them.
Just make sure whatever approach you take works for you and that you do not neglect or overemphasize things.
That said, I think the Flat bench, incline, and fly workout is a good chest set. I wouldn't do it more than once per week because of my shoulders... but you may like to do it more. I generally do the reps to failure and aim for 4 sets of 8-12 reps while building the weight up like a pyramid if I can. If you average them, this works out to roughly 3 sets of 10 and a warmup with a bit of room to move on the reps if you feel like really pushing it or taking it a little easier.
Hope this helps,
Last edited by Vayu; 02-18-2006 at 06:14 AM.
All the above is good information. Just to throw this out their no matter what routine you are doing if your diet isnt good and your not in a calorie surplus then you wont be gaining much mass really. How is your diet and calls etc. Are you much over maintanance??
weight 202 - (bf around 14%)
Bench - 286
deadlift - new pr on the 23/12/06 190 kilo (430 pound)
squat - 264 ATF
200 pound at 10% bf by next summer
The full body programs are often misunderstood, because you do not do the same routine twice in a week.
Instead, it would be about 3 times per week, with a completely different workout on each day. There would also be certain movements emphasized in one workout, such as horizontal movement, vertical movement, lateral movement, hip dominant, or quad dominant exercises. The emphasis is still to not train muscle groups, but to train movements.
I've been on WBB1 for a while now and it's getting kinda boring.
I just got a set of weights so I'm working out at home now with no equipment at all. I'm starting to do more full body movements now and really liking it.
I had greater initial mass gains on WBB1 (but maybe that was just because I was starting out) but I've had much greater strength gains from the full body stuff.
I hope to use that strength I just gained and do WBB1 again and bump my mass up again.
That would be a terrible 10x3 workout. Do one like Deadlifter outlined, otherwise the method won't be very effective and you'll burn out.Originally Posted by DumbDude
Body part split routines blow. The notion that they are better than full body or upper/lower splits has been beat down time and time again by scientific evidence and the experience of many big, strong, SOB's.
At 5'11 178lbs, you could see great gains on any routine. That doesn't mean its the best way to go!Originally Posted by DumbDude
I think that's a bit of a close minded statement. Both approaches have their own unique benefits. Use both, why limit yourself to only one approach?Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
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1. No they don't.Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
2. No it hasn't.
We have had this discussion already, and I asked you for reputable solid links for either the scientific evidence or these "big, strong SOB's" personal experiences. You failed to provide either.
Last edited by Songsangnim; 02-19-2006 at 03:39 AM.
Alright, they don't blow. They're superior to sitting on your ass with a bag of chips for hypertrophy.Originally Posted by ExtremeAnabolic
Give a single reason why they are better, or ever COMPARABLE to full body or upper/lower routines.
Ya you're right, all those powerlifters, olympic lifters, strongmen competitors, football players, soccer players, basketball players, olympians, etc. have no idea what they're doing. They'd OBVIOUSLY be better off training one muscle group a day...2. No it hasn't.
I don't need to give links to the most obvious and basic concept in all of strength training - that your body works as a unit.We have had this discussion already, and I asked you for reputable solid links for either the scientific evidence or these "big, strong SOB's" personal experiences. You failed to provide either.
That concept has been utilized by the biggest and strongest people alive since the beginning of modern weightlifting. Its not something anyone needs to 'prove' or 'provide evidence for'. Ample evidence exists to anyone who doesn't buy into Weider concepts that have become the mainstay of modern bodybuilding.
I'll give you a couple links though, so you can begin to educate yourself in that area:
From that link, full body routines = Greater Frequency Per Muscle Group, Greater Energy Expenditure Per Workout, Greater Depletion Leading to Greater Supercompensation, and Greater Anabolic Hormone Stimulation.
On the other hand, the only benefits from split routines identified are:
Less Fatigue = Greater Loads... because you only stress a single muscle group in a workout(which is functionally impossible, therefore inferior by concept) you are less tired overall. I give this some credit, except that if your lowerback and hamstrings are fried from your back workout, you're going to have a hard time working legs or playing a sport or whatever for 2-4 days afterwards.
Greater Attention Per Muscle Group... this is pretty pointless, because the greater attention per muscle group comes at the expense of stimulating that and other muscle groups less frequently(detrimental to hypertrophy).
Less Apt to Overtrain... this is generally true, although it depends on the specific muscle groups you're talking about. That is, you can overtrain very quickly on bodypart split routines because you're beating the hell out of a large muscle group specifically every session, but 16 sets of curls isn't going to overtrain you very quickly(obviously).
Here's another, by another one of the most highly respected gurus in the world:
And another piece of gold by Waterbury:
Perform Full-Body Workouts!
Training all of the major muscle groups in a single session has too many benefits to list, but I can tell you that itís one of the most important pieces of a hypertrophy puzzle!
Bill Starrís The Strongest Shall Survive was based on this idea, but even before Starr learned to write, old-time strongmen were challenging their entire body with every damn training session throughout the week, and they were some big, strong sumbitches! I took note and you should too.
Not only will you be able to minimize your trips to the gym, but youíll be frequently exposing your major muscle groups to a much greater level of stimulus. This is combined with the fact that the androgen response increases when many major muscle groups are being taxed in a single session.
Just remember to keep isolation exercises to a minimum because you want to be in and out of the gym in less than an hour. If not, overtraining will probably ensue.
And yet another, from yet another world respected guru:
4) BODYPART SPLITS
I think my mission in life is to rid the world of this ridiculous workout notion. Somehow this highly developed organism that we call the human body is not a remarkable piece of machinery that functions flawlessly as a unit, it's just random ass "parts" put together ó each of which can be worked separately.
You didn't even turn your computer on using only one muscle so why in God's name are you trying to develop a body using some sort of body part split?
And while I'm on the subject, how come fingers and toes don't get their own "day"?
Biceps get their own special recognition, what about fingers and toes and sternocleido mastoids? Or left arm on one day, right arm on another day (different body parts)? Because it's stupid, right? Well, so is splitting up your chest and shoulder "days".
There are NO athletes other than a small bunch of genetically gifted, pharmaceutical abusing individuals who use a "body part" split with any success. NONE.
Now, if you ARE one of the genetic elite pharmaceutical abusers, then feel free.
Split routines arrived on the scene shortly after Dianabol was popular. Do you see the connection?
Now before you ask me, "Can I split up my routine in some way?" Of course you can. But split it up based on what your body DOES, not based on what "part" it is. Splitting up by parts makes as much sense as splitting up by the number of freckles in that area.
And despite me talking about it at length, the average reader is still on some sort of "body part split." Body part splits appeared at the same time as drug use increased in bodybuilding. A drug-free guy with a job and any kind of life outside the gym will make better progress long term using full body routines or movement pattern splits.
I can spit this stuff out all day, but there's a wealth of information on this topic that you could find with little effort. I'm not saying split routines are worthless, perhaps my wording was too strong. But compared to full body routines, there is literally NO reason to do them unless you are loaded with anabolics.
But the OP is looking for a routine for mass not strength as youve stated in the above post that body part split isnt good at all. All your examples seem to be for strength training which this person has not asked for. I know these come hand in hand and appreciate all of the above info and agree with allot of it. After trying different methods like listed above with upper/lower - push/pull and BCC pre contest training program and after trying all of these i personally still prefer body part routine. Wether this is because i started doing it like this or what ever i dont know but for mass gains and hypertrophy as long as your working the muscle and eating right you are going yo get mass gains which is what the originale poster asked for.
weight 202 - (bf around 14%)
Bench - 286
deadlift - new pr on the 23/12/06 190 kilo (430 pound)
squat - 264 ATF
200 pound at 10% bf by next summer
True HILL, but as you said strength and size are extremely closely related. As long as you're getting stronger and eating enough, you'll be gaining mass. Its also damn difficult to gain mass without gaining strength. All in all, the most effective way to gain size and strength is not through bodypart split routine training.
Also, I consider push/pull/leg routines to be pretty much full body training, assuming you're doing the right exercises. I.E. when you do rows on back day, you're training your back, biceps, shoulders, and legs. When you do deadlifts or squats on leg day, you're training your legs, back, and pretty much everything else. When you do overhead presses(most types of overhead pressing) and bench pressing, you're training your shoulders/tris/pecs and core. There's no way around full body training really(if you are doing the exercises everyone should be doing), so the basic concept behind bodypart split training is flawed.
Last edited by Meat_Head; 02-19-2006 at 02:52 PM.
LoL well I could say alot about your stats too . Anyway, I think you place way too much emphasis on what other people are doing. Just because you see these "Big mofo's" or whatever in your gym doing stuff... doesnít mean itís going to work for everyone. As long as you are seeing gains then stick with a workout. When they stop, change it up. The best thing might be a good combination.Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
Oh dear oh dear where to begin to correct the assumptions, misunderstanding, and completly wrong claims in this post?
(numbers are mine)
1. Many of these people utilize split body part routines. How can you claim that ALL of these athletes use a full body routine? Unless you have seen each and every one you can not possible make this claim. Some train one way, other train another way. I doubt that all these people or even a vast majority train with full body routines.
2. Who are these "biggest and strongest people"? Names? Dates? Styles of training? Again how do you know this?
3/4. The benefits from split body training are fairly obvious. Try to train like this in a single workout fullbody. 3 20 rep squats followed by pullovers (use your max squat for 15). Next use a 5*5 for deadllift (use your max dead 8) Follow that with a 5*5 bench press (again with a max of 8). Now do supersets (3) for biceps and triceps and finish that off with standing calf raises and ab work. Very few people would be able to do that kind of work in one session and not for very long without overtraining unless they are on gear and have good genetics to boot.
Now you say, well why not reduce the volume? I train hard and heavy. Doing work that is well within your abilities, is not going to create an adaptive response. I don't know about you, but after I have finished a squat or deadlift workout, I am literally incapable of doing more. I have trouble walking down the stairs.
5. So because people MAY have done it this way a long time ago, does that mean we should do it? They wrote letters by hand too. Should we throw out our typewritters and computers as well and write by hand?
6. If you are able to focus more intensity on legs or back, you will be able to develop a very strong androgen response as well. I would be willing to bet that the androgen difference between the two styles is pretty small.
7. You will be out of the gym sooner with a split routine...but I agree with the isolation exercises. I'm not a big fan of them.
8. This is absolutely false. I and many people on this forum have seen good gains on a split body part. I went from 140 lbs to 205 lbs. There are a lot of people who use steroids and still haven't made such gains. And I am and have always been 100% drug-free. In fact I have never even taken any supplements like whey protein or creatine. Anyway you can tell that it is false, simply because he claims that there are NO athletes who use a body-part split with any success. Unless he has personally seen how every single athlete in the world has trained (an obvious impossibility) that is at best an unproven assertation and at worst a complete falsehood.
9. Split routines may have become popular when Dianabol arrived, but they were used before that. And anyway to make the claim that there is a connection between the two simply because they arrived at around the same time, is a logical fallacy.
10. I am glad you are agreeing that they are not worthless.
Finally just because a couple of Internet "gurus" say something, doesn't make it so. .."one of the most highly respected gurus in the world"? Please, he writes for an online site. That doesn't exactly make him world-famous. Brad Pitt is world-famous, yet his physique is not something I exactly aspire to.
Last edited by Songsangnim; 02-19-2006 at 10:16 PM.