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Thread: Deadlift: Wear a belt or do not wear a belt?

  1. #26
    Banned M.J.H.'s Avatar
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    Hell no! Raw deadlifting for life.

  2. #27
    Breaker of Skulls Guido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash
    Hence my specification of basic deadlift training.

    I don't think anyone should use a belt to train higher rep, <80% 1RM for deads. Pulling a max, fine; prepping for a contest, obviously; 5+ rep training to develop strength and musculature, nope.
    I agree with Mixy. Anything over 3 reps to failure, no need to use a belt. For near maximal lifts, it's definitely a good idea. Then again, that's not really "basic" training.
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  3. #28
    mrelwooddowd Patz's Avatar
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    I saw a guy wearing a belt for preacher curls the other day..
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  4. #29
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    ...I don't know how many times I've seen people wearing a belt WHEN THEY'RE DOING ABS.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
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  5. #30
    Iced Earth - Stormrider ArchAngel777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei
    ...I don't know how many times I've seen people wearing a belt WHEN THEY'RE DOING ABS.
    But Sensie, this is why I believe we all come to our own conclusions based on how we feel on the subject. Your breaking point is different than mine... Example

    Man1 says "Belts sucks no matter what"

    Man2 says "I dissagree, Belts should not be used except on maximum lifts and only for squats and dead lifts"

    Man3 says "Whatever, I use them for everything, including my abs."

    You have three different people with three different stages of "acceptability of the belt"... Of course, everyone has and makes exceptions based on their personal preference and beliefs...

    So, I guess no one should knock anyone for having their prefence of the belt.

  6. #31
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElPietro
    The concept of functional strength is 99% ignorance to begin with, so when someone keeps spouting off that term, I tend to stop listening.

    So unless when you are lifting in the real world, everything has weight perfectly distributed on either side, and a bar with the same thickness in the middle there is no "functional" correlation, so please understand the terms you are using before posting.
    Gotta disagree with this. The muscles that you make stronger in the gym, say while doing deadlifts, are stronger in every day life as well. That is while deadlifting may not effectively mimic something like moving furniture, having a strong posterior chain and grip will help.

    Sensei, why not try something like work up to a triple without the belt then work up to a triple with it? Or you could use a belt one day, go raw the next. That way you could get the maximal overload on your lower body with the belt and still get maximal overload on your core without it.
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  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by kingkrs
    The belt helps stabilze the spine by restraining your inside pressure which makes you stronger via the pneumo-muscular reflex.

    Try to avoid the belt at all costs. Too much dependence on the belt will result in a weaker mid-section and your lifts will suffer. (without the belt) So what you can lift a little more with a belt, you are better off without it. Work on keeping your abs tight throughout the lifts and your internal pressure up. If you are going to help your buddy move, are you going to have your belt?

    I prefer real usable, functional strength.

    I never use a belt for lifting. Sorry I lied... I use a dip belt for dips and pullups.
    Strongly agree, the belt will actually make your organs and stabilizers weaker because while using the belt theyll become dependant on the support the belt gives them. And yes, the only belt you should be using is a dip belt for dips and chins.

  8. #33
    Breaker of Skulls Guido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intensity&Focus
    Strongly agree, the belt will actually make your organs and stabilizers weaker because while using the belt theyll become dependant on the support the belt gives them. And yes, the only belt you should be using is a dip belt for dips and chins.
    Your muscles won't become "dependent" and they won't become "weaker" just because you are using a belt. They just won't become as strong as they would otherwise. Still, on maximal lifts, it still makes sense to use a belt because form becomes much more difficult to maintain. Keep in mind, an injured muscle is a very WEAK muscle.
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  9. #34
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
    Gotta disagree with this. The muscles that you make stronger in the gym, say while doing deadlifts, are stronger in every day life as well. That is while deadlifting may not effectively mimic something like moving furniture, having a strong posterior chain and grip will help.
    This makes very little sense, considering I can apply this statement to almost any exercise depending on what we are talking about.

    So I could just stay home because a captain of crush gripper is making my grip strong. Or if I play basketball a lot all of a sudden the calf raise is now a "functional" lift.

    I'm sorry but the whole functional arguement is one of the most foolish ones in all of weight training. When you go to the gym you are training muscle groups, that is it. Unless the movement you do is 100% accurate to a portion or full function of what you are trying to do in real life, it really is nothing the same.

    Will a strong lower back and grip help you lift something? Yes. But you can apply that to pretty much any muscle. Your muscles don't all of a suddent get stronger because you are performing a "function."

    The exceptions are in specific rehab or specialized olympic type equipment, that are designed to apply appropriate resistance to the exact motion that one needs to perform. Then you are training the muscles, and your own memory in performing the movement, which makes you better at the movement.

    Otherwise, every single thing we do at the gym is "functional" strength. If a deadlift is functional because you use your back for lifting, I guess a hyperextension is as well right? I guess racking and unracking weight is as well, since that is picking up and putting down weight, and also working grip over time. I guess bench press or dumbell kickbacks are functional since if you have to push a fridge into place, that is another take on it right?

    Let's not kid ourselves, you are training your muscles, not your body to perform a specific function outside of the actual lift you are performing. So when training the deadlift, the only function you are increasing your aptitude for directly IS the deadlift. Will you have a stronger back? Sure. But I can get that from a lot of things, and a guy that lifts boxes all day will probably be more apt at lifting boxes than someone who just deadlifts and tries it the first time.

    So the whole functional strength part is pretty much BS, unless you have a very specific piece of machinery that mimics an exact phase of the function you are trying to perform in life. This argument has been shot down so many times I thought it was common knowledge by now.
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  10. #35
    Iced Earth - Stormrider ArchAngel777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElPietro

    Otherwise, every single thing we do at the gym is "functional" strength. If a deadlift is functional because you use your back for lifting, I guess a hyperextension is as well right? I guess racking and unracking weight is as well, since that is picking up and putting down weight, and also working grip over time. I guess bench press or dumbell kickbacks are functional since if you have to push a fridge into place, that is another take on it right?
    Well, the part I believe you are failing to understand is that diverse training results in fuctional strength. Doing calf raises along would do NOTHING for basketball. It requires quad strength and a host of other muscles.

    The way I would define functional strength is by training nearly every muscle group in some way to make it stronger. That is why I support diverse workouts. The big three in Power Lifting leave much to be desired in the real world. Even the Clean + Jerk and Snatch leave much to be desired. Do all five of those, and then work with a medacine ball in addition to incorporating another training regimen like CrossFit and the likes WILL result in functional strength.

    The only reason moving a couch is more difficult than a barbell is because is requires more stabalizer strength in several muscles and because it works muscles that most people do not train in the gym. The only reason...

    Hell, someone who moves furnature for a occupation is probably stronger than many weightlifters. This is what we could call a muscle imbalance. Actually, I googled this a few months ago and found an Olympic Lifter who was tested for muscle imbalance. He could clean 400 already, but was found to be weaker than some woman in certain strength exercises.

    Bottom line? I think your post is a little harsh and close minded on the topic.
    Last edited by ArchAngel777; 03-17-2006 at 03:50 PM.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Guido
    Your muscles won't become "dependent" and they won't become "weaker" just because you are using a belt. They just won't become as strong as they would otherwise. Still, on maximal lifts, it still makes sense to use a belt because form becomes much more difficult to maintain. Keep in mind, an injured muscle is a very WEAK muscle.
    Im going to have to disagree with you on this one no matter what you tell me. My mom is the manager of a chiropractic clinic and ive talked to all the chiropractors about it. They brought out their books and have prooved to me how bad those belts are for you. So theres no point in arguing with me on this one. You have your belief and I have mine.

  12. #37
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guido
    Your muscles won't become "dependent" and they won't become "weaker" just because you are using a belt. They just won't become as strong as they would otherwise. Still, on maximal lifts, it still makes sense to use a belt because form becomes much more difficult to maintain. Keep in mind, an injured muscle is a very WEAK muscle.
    Actually, there is some evidence that there is reverse training of the abs with chronic use of a belt. Instead of remaining tight for support, the abs will expand against the belt for maximum support. The abs will indeed become weaker at supporting the core by themselves.

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  13. #38
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intensity&Focus
    Im going to have to disagree with you on this one no matter what you tell me. My mom is the manager of a chiropractic clinic and ive talked to all the chiropractors about it. They brought out their books and have prooved to me how bad those belts are for you. So theres no point in arguing with me on this one. You have your belief and I have mine.
    So you are saying that using a belt ONCE every couple of months is going to be bad for you? I bet you I can find 90 out of 100 chiropractors that will say deadlifting altogether is bad for your back, so we should probably just not deadlift at all. Or hell, not even lift near-max since there is a chance of injury...

    Also, let me ask you this. What about the chiros and physios and medical doctors that work with olympic lifters? All these guys use belts when doing their lifts on the platform? So I wonder what books they are reading? ****, they are only the best in their field that money can buy as well...who's word should we take?
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  14. #39
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElPietro
    What about the chiros and physios and medical doctors that work with olympic lifters? All these guys use belts when doing their lifts on the platform?
    Huh?

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  15. #40
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchAngel777
    Bottom line? I think your post is a little harsh and close minded on the topic.
    The topic is BELTS. As I said before, I don't understand how wearing a belt suddenly renders all gains made in the gym unfunctional in the "real world".

    Of course, there will generally be better transfer from strongman type training to furniture lifting - I don't think anyone is arguing against that.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
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  16. #41
    HomeYield WillKuenzel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElPietro
    This makes very little sense, considering I can apply this statement to almost any exercise depending on what we are talking about.
    Maybe "functional" can't be used to describe everything but the term "efficient" and/or "larger crossover" might be more applicable.

    So I could just stay home because a captain of crush gripper is making my grip strong. Or if I play basketball a lot all of a sudden the calf raise is now a "functional" lift.
    LOL. Now you're just trying to be condescending.

    I'm sorry but the whole functional arguement is one of the most foolish ones in all of weight training. When you go to the gym you are training muscle groups, that is it. Unless the movement you do is 100% accurate to a portion or full function of what you are trying to do in real life, it really is nothing the same.
    You're thinking of "functional" in regards to a specific function, not everyday activity. If you are an athlete, the squat is going to be more efficient than the leg press as its a closed chain activity. It doesn't directly mimic anything but its going to have more carryover than the leg press because it involves more muscles. This being efficient is more functional.

    Will a strong lower back and grip help you lift something? Yes. But you can apply that to pretty much any muscle. Your muscles don't all of a suddent get stronger because you are performing a "function."
    Again, you are thinking specifically of things. How do strongman train? They train for everything. If they were required to do something in everyday life, they would be better equiped to do it than a normal bodybuilder simply because they are more rounded as an athlete. More endurance, more CNS application, and better overall muscle adaptation. More functional individual.

    The exceptions are in specific rehab or specialized olympic type equipment, that are designed to apply appropriate resistance to the exact motion that one needs to perform. Then you are training the muscles, and your own memory in performing the movement, which makes you better at the movement.
    Then explain carryover from the squat to the deadlift, or vice versa. Check out this article:http://www.elitefts.com/documents/qu...r_strength.htm

    Otherwise, every single thing we do at the gym is "functional" strength. If a deadlift is functional because you use your back for lifting, I guess a hyperextension is as well right? I guess racking and unracking weight is as well, since that is picking up and putting down weight, and also working grip over time. I guess bench press or dumbell kickbacks are functional since if you have to push a fridge into place, that is another take on it right?
    Again just being condescending and close minded.

    Let's not kid ourselves, you are training your muscles, not your body to perform a specific function outside of the actual lift you are performing.
    Really? I train my body to do what I want it to do. If you are a bodybuilder, sure, you are just training muscles. When you train to squat are you training your legs specifically or your whole body to be better able to handle the weight? A person can't always tell what's coming next but you can be prepared for anything depending on how you train.

    So when training the deadlift, the only function you are increasing your aptitude for directly IS the deadlift. Will you have a stronger back? Sure. But I can get that from a lot of things, and a guy that lifts boxes all day will probably be more apt at lifting boxes than someone who just deadlifts and tries it the first time.
    He is going to have more aptitude for lifting boxes but he is also going to have more endurance and stamina. There is a lot more going on with the body depending on what you are doing. The guy lifting the boxes might also have a larger lung capacity. He might not be able to deadlift as much but if you put the two guys side by side and told them to both deadlift a weight repeatedly, the box lifter might win out. Just because he doesn't directly do the deadlift, doesn't mean he can't pick it up quicker or do it at all. There is some carryover. Not directly. So if you are powerlifting you shouldn't do GPP because its not powerlifting specific? Just because you are a grappler you shouldn't do running for cardio because it doesn't correlate? You are thinking directly of specifity training. There is a difference between that and just functional training.
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  17. #42
    Iced Earth - Stormrider ArchAngel777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei
    The topic is BELTS. As I said before, I don't understand how wearing a belt suddenly renders all gains made in the gym unfunctional in the "real world".

    Of course, there will generally be better transfer from strongman type training to furniture lifting - I don't think anyone is arguing against that.
    Woah Sensei, I think you just took me out of context. What you quote me for above was in regards to functional strength and him calling everyone ignorant who uses the term. Besides, I think you should respond to my other post directed towards you.

    Edit** and if you notice, HomeYield said that same things to him about being close minded...
    Last edited by ArchAngel777; 03-17-2006 at 04:29 PM.

  18. #43
    Baby Seal Clubber ElPietro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomeYield
    Maybe "functional" can't be used to describe everything but the term "efficient" and/or "larger crossover" might be more applicable.

    LOL. Now you're just trying to be condescending.

    You're thinking of "functional" in regards to a specific function, not everyday activity. If you are an athlete, the squat is going to be more efficient than the leg press as its a closed chain activity. It doesn't directly mimic anything but its going to have more carryover than the leg press because it involves more muscles. This being efficient is more functional.

    Again, you are thinking specifically of things. How do strongman train? They train for everything. If they were required to do something in everyday life, they would be better equiped to do it than a normal bodybuilder simply because they are more rounded as an athlete. More endurance, more CNS application, and better overall muscle adaptation. More functional individual.

    Then explain carryover from the squat to the deadlift, or vice versa. Check out this article:http://www.elitefts.com/documents/qu...r_strength.htm

    Again just being condescending and close minded.

    Really? I train my body to do what I want it to do. If you are a bodybuilder, sure, you are just training muscles. When you train to squat are you training your legs specifically or your whole body to be better able to handle the weight? A person can't always tell what's coming next but you can be prepared for anything depending on how you train.

    He is going to have more aptitude for lifting boxes but he is also going to have more endurance and stamina. There is a lot more going on with the body depending on what you are doing. The guy lifting the boxes might also have a larger lung capacity. He might not be able to deadlift as much but if you put the two guys side by side and told them to both deadlift a weight repeatedly, the box lifter might win out. Just because he doesn't directly do the deadlift, doesn't mean he can't pick it up quicker or do it at all. There is some carryover. Not directly. So if you are powerlifting you shouldn't do GPP because its not powerlifting specific? Just because you are a grappler you shouldn't do running for cardio because it doesn't correlate? You are thinking directly of specifity training. There is a difference between that and just functional training.
    Sure, crossover, I'll buy that. But all it is, is training muscles that are used in other activities. When you squat vs leg press, you are training a hell of a lot more muscles. It's not magic.

    As far as carry over from squat to deadlift, or vice versa, it is a very similar movement, only a different placement of load. The lower back is more active in the deadlift simply because the load is placed infront of the body, not behind.

    As for how do strongmen train? Well if you want to know, they train for strength obviously, but holy ****, for their functional strength, guess what, they are doing the actual movements. That's why you would see a strongman train by doing farmers walks. THAT IS WHAT FUNCTIONAL STRENGHT IS. DOING THE ACTUAL MOVEMENT. The rest is simply strengthening the areas that are going to aid in that function. I don't know how hard this is to grasp. This is 99% somantics anyway. Oh, and for those that watch these events, please tell me if you see them wearing belts. For those that don't, the answer would be yes.

    As for close-minded, let me see, this has to be the dumbest thing yet. Is it close-minded to go with the, "OMG NEVER USE BELTS IT WILL MAKE UR ABS WEAK!@!" argument, or my argument that there is a place for belts when used properly, and that is for max or near max singles on the deadlift? If I"m wrong here please tell me how. Then we can go on a crusade to correct all the competitive lifters on the entire planet on masse and save their weak abs when they are squatting four figures.

    As for GPP, this has also been discussed. It is to increase your ability to do more work, which powerlifters in the past felt that they needed. Is it addressing any specific function? No, that's why the first letter in the acronym stands for GENERAL.

    It's a simple concept and I know you know this, I just needed to retort since you spent some time typing it up. A world class sprinter will train his legs religiously, but that will only facilitate better training sessions when he is actually sprinting. If we applied the term function, then the guy with the most developed body should technically be the fastest runner, but that's not the case.

    This debate is on the place of belts in training. I too scoff at the guy that wears his belt for the entire training session, or just overly too much in general. Does that mean I think belts do not serve a purpose? No. So...if that's close-minded, please tell me what open-minded is...

    Perhaps some functional training would be getting your ivory white punk bitch ass in a tanning salon, so that you don't blind the judges when the flash bulbs go off!
    Last edited by ElPietro; 03-17-2006 at 05:18 PM.
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  19. #44
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchAngel777
    Perhaps you are being defensive... But, quite honestly, my mind is made up on the issue and as I noted before, it is my personal opinion. So there really isn't anything to refute here.
    There is something to refute. That wearing a belt makes you "unfunctional". I realize it is your opinion, but it is unfounded. I realize that your OL background probably has something to do with your bias against equipment of all kinds, but IMHO it is a little over the top to say a belt has absolutely no place whatsoever in training.
    As for the sofa, they probably will be strong enough, but it depends on the couch and where it is going, in addition to the angles it has to go through.
    Of course. So will the person's build and stature. I don't know what that has to do with it.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
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  20. #45
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElPietro
    As far as carry over from squat to deadlift, or vice versa, it is a very similar movement, only a different placement of load. The lower back is more active in the deadlift simply because the load is placed infront of the body, not behind.
    Know what a squat is similar to? Jumping, standing up, running, and walking. Know what deadlifting is similar to? Picking stuff up.

    You've effectively identified why there is such a thing as 'functional' training.

    As for how do strongmen train? Well if you want to know, they train for strength obviously, but holy ****, for their functional strength, guess what, they are doing the actual movements. That's why you would see a strongman train by doing farmers walks. THAT IS WHAT FUNCTIONAL STRENGHT IS. DOING THE ACTUAL MOVEMENT.
    So what's the point of hitting the weight room at all if you're a strongman? If the actual event training is the only 'functional' part of the training, obviously there's no point in wasting time deadlifts, squatting, pressing, etc.

    The rest is simply strengthening the areas that are going to aid in that function. I don't know how hard this is to grasp. This is 99% somantics anyway. Oh, and for those that watch these events, please tell me if you see them wearing belts. For those that don't, the answer would be yes.
    The muscles that squats, deadlifts, rows, pullups, bench presses, overhead presses, etc. train are muscles that are used in all athletic events and the stresses of daily life. Thus, strengthening those lifts is building up functional strength. And strongmen wear belts in contests because it allows them to lift more weight...
    Last edited by Meat_Head; 03-17-2006 at 05:51 PM.
    Squat...Eat...Sleep...Grow...Repeat

  21. #46
    Banned M.J.H.'s Avatar
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    I bet you I can find 90 out of 100 chiropractors that will say deadlifting altogether is bad for your back, so we should probably just not deadlift at all.
    I agree with this, especially since like ELP said, most chiropractors would agree that deadlifting is bad for your back.

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by ElPietro
    So you are saying that using a belt ONCE every couple of months is going to be bad for you? I bet you I can find 90 out of 100 chiropractors that will say deadlifting altogether is bad for your back, so we should probably just not deadlift at all. Or hell, not even lift near-max since there is a chance of injury...

    Also, let me ask you this. What about the chiros and physios and medical doctors that work with olympic lifters? All these guys use belts when doing their lifts on the platform? So I wonder what books they are reading? ****, they are only the best in their field that money can buy as well...who's word should we take?
    Where did you get that from?! Never once did I say anything along the words of using a belt once every couple months is going to be bad for you. Yes, olympic lifters use them because it is true you are able to lift more with them but it is bad for you to use it all the time. I should have added in the fact that you cant get used to using a belt on the days of all your compound lifts or whenever you use them because that is when your muscles and organs become dependant and become weaker.

  23. #48
    Bodybuilding Mythbuster
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    This thread brings back so many wonderful memories... [wipes a tear from eye]


    I use a belt for max triples or doubles on the deadlift (I don't like doing max singles)

    All other lifts (including the squat) are belt free.

    But anyway to Mr. Intensity&Focus. First you said "And yes the ONLY belt you should be using is a dip belt for dips and chins." (capitals are mine)

    Then you said "chiropractors" have proved to you that belts are bad.

    Now you say "...it is bad for you to use it all the time..." No one was arguing that. People were saying that it was okay to use for a max lift in the squat or deadlift. That is the question here. In your opinion is it fine to use a belt SOLELY for a max lift on those two exercises? Yes or no? NO ONE is arguing that you should wear a belt all the time. Stay on focus here.
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 03-17-2006 at 07:59 PM.

  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by ExtremeAnabolic
    This thread brings back so many wonderful memories... (wipes a tear from eye)


    I use a belt for max triples or doubles on the deadlift (I don't like doing max singles)

    All other lifts (including the squat) are belt free.

    But anyway to Mr. Intensity&Focus. First you said "And yes the ONLY belt you should be using is a dip belt for dips and chins." (capitals are mine)

    Then you said "chiropractors" have proved to you that belts are bad.

    Now you say "...it is bad for you to use it all the time..." No one was arguing that. People were saying that it was okay to use for a max lift. That is the question here. In your opinion is it fine to use a belt SOLELY for a max lift? Yes or no? NO ONE is arguing that you should wear a belt all the time. Stay on focus here.
    Ya, I did say the only belt you should use is a dip belt, and the belt I was talking about that you shouldnt use, is the kidney belt (lifting belt). And dont get smart there bud, telling me I shud stay focused? It was a basic statement bc the gym I go to I see a number of ppl who leave it on the entire time they are there. That is bad for you and that is my point.

  25. #50
    Bodybuilding Mythbuster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intensity&Focus
    Ya, I did say the only belt you should use is a dip belt, and the belt I was talking about that you shouldnt use, is the kidney belt (lifting belt). And dont get smart there bud, telling me I shud stay focused? It was a basic statement bc the gym I go to I see a number of ppl who leave it on the entire time they are there. That is bad for you and that is my point.
    Which nobody was arguing with. And no one was talking about your gym. That is what I meant by focus. And you still have not answered the question. Which brings me to my next point.

    http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=69605&page=11

    Why do you attempt to argue issues which are not part of the original discussion? Not a flame just an observation gleaned from this thread and the above link.
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 03-17-2006 at 08:23 PM.

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