As far as I'm concerned, no one has PROVED anything yet.
jazer isn't arguing that you can change the shape of a muscle, he's arguing that you can emphasize a seperate head of the pectoralis major which, considering the only thing that cannot be argued against(anatomy and physiology), seems entirely possible. Will it make a big difference? Probably not, but that isn't what's being argued. In the same way, Belial has used arguments based on anatomy and physiology to support the other side(alot of the neural stuff I don't fully understand yet), but everyone coming in and saying naw there's no upper and lower chest, you can't emphasize either, just because that's been the mantra here for years doesn't really contribute to the discussion.
Last edited by Meat_Head; 04-01-2006 at 04:22 PM.
(numbers are mine)Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
1. Simply because you may be able to emphasize a separate head of a certain muscle, does not mean that you should. People are saying that it is a waste of time and rather pointless to do so.
2. No, that is exactly what is being argued. That's even what the title is about. He is claiming that he is noticing a difference in the upper pec region as opposed to overall growth. People are arguing that the whole pec grew and that there isn't much if any difference. This has been a key point throughout the thread.
3. There is no upper or lower chest. When people say that, they are talking about the pectoralis major. It is one muscle. There is no line of separation. It is not a mantra, simply established fact.
There is no separate head of the pec major. Its called the tricep because there are 3 heads. Its called the bicep because there are 2 heads. The pec major does not have multiple heads.
Look at the exact physiology of the chest. Go look at it and then come back. Do a bit more research on how the chest works, reacts, and most importantly, moves.
http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/PectoralisClavicular.htmlOriginally Posted by HomeYield
If it is possible to emphasize growth in the Clavicular head, it doesn't look like it would do much for your overall chest.
Biomechanics guys correct me here if this is wrong.
One of the best arguments I have ever heard against the idea of shaping muscle is the harmonics involved. The idea that if one bicep head was applying more force it could pull the tendon off the bone, or if one 'part' or 'head' of the pec major pulled with more force it would disrupt the harmonics of the movement and bad things would happen.
Neuroscience guys correct me here if this is wrong.
The argument here would be that your muscle is wired with certain motor units and innervation patterns. Meaning your muscle contracts in a particular way because of how it's wired. Not how you train.
Of course this could be.....
Last edited by Holto; 04-01-2006 at 08:57 PM.
okay, i'm starting to think that i can't fully guarantee that my lower chest didn't grow in proportional to the upper. when i look in the mirror, the lower chest looks smaller than it did before, adn the very upper/inner looks bigger. i reposted before and afters for reference. i know i grew in my upper/inner, as there is clear mass at a spot there wasn't before, but it is harder for me to give a 100% on whether or not hte bottom's size is the same/smaller/larger. you all know what i think, and i know what you think. i don't htink we're getting much further on this issue, but PLEASE DON'T CLOSE THIS THREAD, I AM STILL TRAINING FOR UPPER, SO I WILL HAVE PICS IN ANOTHER MONTH OR TWO!!!!Originally Posted by Holto
I now have a couple more questions on stuff that was touched upon in this thread
1)i'm not gonna go back and find who in the thread said this, but you always hear that you cannot maek one part of hte body bigger (disproportionately) than the rest. that made sense to me, but later that day, cases like major league pitchers, or nfl kickers, made me think that about having heard they have these unbalanced issues. what gives?
2)even if you prettymuch cannot emphasize a certain part of your chest, but it seems that you can ever so slightly, why wouldn't you just do inclines anyways? i mean i know it's less weight, but it is still stressing your chest to the max, so the weight used is a moot point. yes, you are involving shoulders more, but you could drop shoulder exercises to compensate. if tehre is a chance for even a slgiht emphasis to be seen on the upper chest, what would be a downfall of doing it this way, assuming it didn't bug your shoulders as i've heard it does to some people?
Of course you can develop out of proportion. Look at Randy Johnson. It usually takes a long time, though. The point that we're trying to make to new lifters is that development in any one area will be slower if the balancing musculature does not exist.Originally Posted by jazer80
Inclines do not stress the chest maximally. In almost every case, they are deltoid limited. There are a number of reasons to work on overhead pressing, particularly standing presses. So, if you're doing overhead presses, you probably want to focus on flat bench rather than incline, so as to not overwork the anterior delts.Originally Posted by jazer80
Originally Posted by HomeYield
You're a big, strong mofo. You're also smart. You should know better than this...
LMAO! I remember in another thread where I posted the information that Holto did right under my post. It was late when I posted that, or at least that's the excuse I'm using.
We'll go with that.Originally Posted by HomeYield
I belive any muscle that ends in _____ Major has multiple heads. Deltoid Major etc..
No, the pec major istelf has two heads, clavicular and sternal. The pectoralis minor is different entirely. The deltoid is a single muscle with three heads, anterior, lateral, and posterior.Originally Posted by Holto
Can someone explain to my why different heads aren't considered different muscles? Is it that they are attached somewhere at the same point or ?
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Ok disregard the major comment. Not sure if you meant the first part toward me as I stated this correctly above, linking to both heads of the pec major.Originally Posted by MixmasterNash
someone made the argument that you couldn't do this because your body keeps balance and doesn't let things go 'out of harmony' to paraphrase. i disagree with this, as i was at work today and it came to me that nfl kickers def have larger kicking legs than their other leg.
Originally Posted by jazer80
1. Since the usage of steroids is so wide-spread among professionals in most sports, one could make the case that you could definitely develop out of proportion to a noticable degree, but that would be more a factor of drug use and would still take a long time.
2. Mr. Nash already touched on this one.
Because the heads are all attached to the 'belly' of the muscle.Originally Posted by fatrb38
Mr. jazer do you have any pics yet? You did promise them.
Last edited by lucifer92384; 03-14-2007 at 06:31 PM.
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So that was your first post? You couldn't think of anything better to write than test? Not only that, you did it in a year old thread.
Last edited by sCaRz*Of*PaiN; 03-14-2007 at 05:44 PM.
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i dont see that there is any problem doing a first post saying test just so that he can see the pic. and even better that its a year old post because nobody will be so annoyed about it. its a great topic, and im pretty much doign the same thing. first post = pics
I understand what the OP said cause im doing the same thing. THe chest is one muscle but i have no done Incline bench maybe all my life. Jsut started recently and my chest shape is becoming better because the 'upper' parts of my chest are being emphasised on. Im not saying theres 2 pecs on each side, just that you emphasise on what part is possible
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