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Thread: Apple Boot Camp [Beta] - Boot From WinXp On Intel Macs!

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    DeaTH BeFoRe WeaKNeSs sCaRz*Of*PaiN's Avatar
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    Apple Boot Camp [Beta] - Boot From WinXp On Intel Macs!

    That's right...I didn't say emulate. You can now fully boot Windows XP on Apple PCs (Intel-based). This means everything will run at full speed...including...PC GAMES. Now you can have OS X and Windows on the same computer. No more of that emulation crap. Boot Camp will come standard in Apple's new OS X 10.5 coming out in the near future.

    Apple released Boot Camp today, a free download that lets you run Windows on an Intel-based Mac. The 83MB download is available as beta software, and Boot Camp will be included in Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard later this year. We don't, however, expect to see Windows preinstalled on Macs anytime soon (Apple makes it very clear it will not support Windows). Interest in running Windows on a Mac has been evident ever since Steve Jobs announced the Intel-based iMac this past January, and it reached a crescendo last month with various contests for finding a hack to run Windows on an Intel Mac. Boot Camp, therefore, isn't the first time the world will see Windows running on a Mac, but it certainly makes the process much easier.

    We installed Boot Camp on the iMac Core Duo; the software will also work with the Mac Mini and the MacBook Pro. Before we could run the app, we first had to update our iMac to Mac OS X 10.4.6, followed by a quick firmware update. We were then prompted to burn a disc of Windows drivers (for the iMac Core Duo's video and audio adapters, peripherals, wired and wireless networking adapters, and so on), which are included in the Boot Camp download. After ejecting our newly minted driver disc, Boot Camp then asked us how we'd like to partition our iMac's 250GB hard drive. The default was a paltry 5GB for Windows; we upped it to an even 100GB, then inserted a Windows XP Pro with Service Pack 2 disc. Note: You must supply your own copy of Windows; you can use either Home or Pro, but Apple's documentation states that it must include SP2. The Windows installation proceeded per its norm, the iMac restarted, and we were looking at the strange site of the glossy white iMac framing the familiar XP Bliss wallpaper. It's alive!

    A quick scan of the Device Manager showed that we were a few drivers short of a full deck. We installed the contents of the driver disc that Boot Camp had us create, which filled in most, but not all, of the gaps. We were still missing a USB driver and a PCI driver, along with some unknowns. From our first pass with Windows on the iMac, however, the system appeared to be fully operational. We were able to connect to our LAN and the Internet, and even play a game of Minesweeper.

    What Boot Camp doesn't let you do is run both operating systems at the same time. You must shut down one before booting to the other. Whichever OS you had running last will boot upon the next start-up. To halt that from happening, simply hold down the Alt-Option key while the system powers on, and after a few seconds, you'll be presented with a gray start screen with two images of hard drives: choose the one of the left for Mac OS or the one on the right for Windows.

    Boot Camp also installs an icon labeled Startup Disk in the Control Panel in Windows and in the System Preferences window in Mac OS. It opens a window that lists the Mac OS and Windows XP partitions. Choose one to shut down the current OS you have running and boot to the other. Switching between the two operating systems was fast and easy. Also, Windows appeared to be stable; it crashed only once when we were investigating DirectX settings, not an unusual occurrence on any Windows-based PC.

    There's more to this than playing Minesweeper on a Mac, of course. Aside from the wow factor, Boot Camp, especially when it becomes a standard feature of the Mac OS, should usher in a new era for the Mac platform. Though you'll need to pony up for a copy of Windows, your Mac will be able to run any software that its PC competitors can run, not to mention all the Apple apps that PCs can't run. With Boot Camp, for example, you can run the iLife apps and the latest 3D game, say, F.E.A.R., on the same system.

    Performance remains a question and one that we are feverishly working to answer. We've completed one test though, and it shows big gains for Windows on a Mac--compared to an application using the Rosetta translation software, anyway. Running Photoshop CS2 on the iMac Core Duo with Mac OS X requires the use of Rosetta and results in pokey performance, slower than the older iMac G5, in fact. We ran our Photoshop CS2 benchmark on the same iMac Core Duo system with Windows today and saw a drastic improvement. Where the iMac Core Duo in Mac OS X took 6.5 minutes to complete the test, the same system running Windows XP Pro took less than 3 minutes. Add the fact that Adobe isn't expected to release the universal binary version of Photoshop for Intel-based Macs until next year, and Windows on the Mac looks pretty good right now. You will, however, need the Windows version of Photoshop. Also impressive: the iMac with Windows also topped two similarly outfitted dual-core PCs from Dell and Gateway.

    This is just the first of our tests; we'll update this story as soon as our other benchmarks are completed. In the meantime, we'll try to get adjusted to hearing the Windows start-up chime on the iMac.
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    Last edited by sCaRz*Of*PaiN; 04-09-2006 at 02:15 PM.
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    Its too bad there aren't any advantages to that *at all* right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSpikeyThing
    Its too bad there aren't any advantages to that *at all* right now.
    Being able to natively run Windows programs on Mac hardware isn't an advantage?

    Well, it's convinced me that my next machine will be a Mac, so they've made one sale at least. I have some legacy code and software to run.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSpikeyThing
    Its too bad there aren't any advantages to that *at all* right now.
    What are you talking about? I use both...and need both. Now I can have both on the same computer. And now I can play PC games on a Mac computer. I'll definitely be getting a MacBook for college now.





    Dunno how you see no advantage in this.
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    Who is John Galt? CrazyK's Avatar
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    Why pay more for an Apple? Don't get me wrong I'm not an expert in the field, but when hunting for a new computer I always see Apple's computers to be more expensive for the same specs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyK
    Why pay more for an Apple? Don't get me wrong I'm not an expert in the field, but when hunting for a new computer I always see Apple's computers to be more expensive for the same specs.
    You missed the whole point. OS X and Windows XP being able to run natively on the same computer. They are more expensive, yes, but the quality of their designs outweighs most other companies...especially with their laptops. You'd be sitting in a coffee shop running WinXP on a super sleek comp while the guy next to you is using a ginormous DELL laptop made of plastic.

    Also, you're buying the hardware direct from Apple, so it's going to be expensive anyway. Same goes for companies like the Alienware brand from AMD.

    The old excuses for Macs are pretty much reaching the end of their rope now that Apple has introduced Boot Camp. You can have access to software from either side without having to worry about compatibility because both operating systems are on the same comp and people were annoyed that you couldn't play PC games on the Mac. Now you can by simply booting into the other OS. The only issue here now is price...which is irrelevant to me given the quality of their hardware.
    Last edited by sCaRz*Of*PaiN; 04-09-2006 at 02:57 PM.
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    Son of Krypton Majestic's Avatar
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    This has caused me to give some serious thought to just buying a Mac Mini and hooking it up to my current monitor/keyboard.

    I mean......holy sh*t. It's cool to see it's not just some fanboy solution, but an actual supported capability. I love their disclaimers, ".....now, be warned, you WILL be open to Windows viruses if you choose to use Microsoft's software, etc......"
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    Big, Strong, Fast Machine MJS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sCaRz*Of*PaiN
    Also, you're buying the hardware direct from Apple, so it's going to be expensive anyway. Same goes for companies like the Alienware brand from AMD.
    Alienware is being sold .. or rather bought-out by dell, which sucks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSpikeyThing
    Its too bad there aren't any advantages to that *at all* right now.
    Let me justify myself. RIGHT NOW (as I said before) Windows XP is not designed to take advantage of Mac hardware, especially the dual cores that these Macs use. Second, OS X has a big security advantage of Windows based machines for two reasons: a) better written OS (security-wise), and b) fewer people attempt to write viruses for Macs. Third, Windows based software is not optimized to work on Macs (yet), so there won't be any performence benefits and, in fact, there may be decreased performence with some applications. Finally, if you spend $2000 on a new Mac you'll have to spend another $200-$300 to get Windows XP! (I'm Canadian, so those figures are too).

    In the future this will be huge, but right now its just going to be a buggy pain in the a$$. Don't get me wrong, I know how big of a deal it is. I almost shat my pants when I first found out that someone had made it work, and was just as amzazed at Boot Camp.

    Also, this is prtty funny: http://www.tuaw.com/2006/04/05/blue-...th-on-an-imac/

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    is that your mac book pro in the pics or did you get those online? i asked for my parents to get my one for my b-day later this month. how is it? ive gotten so sick of windows while i have been at college. crashes, bugs, pop-ups/adware, and recently my printer isnt working and its too close to the end of school for me to sit down and really figure whats wrong. that is actually great news because i was slightly going to miss some of the apps available on windows that i have (ie autocad progs, 3ds max etc.).

    about how fast do the windows programs operate. im assuming they dont take advantage of the dual core-processors since its not universal binary, but do they run as fast as mac apps that use rosetta (that is the thing that allows programs to run on the intel based macs, right?)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cadana
    about how fast do the windows programs operate. im assuming they dont take advantage of the dual core-processors since its not universal binary, but do they run as fast as mac apps that use rosetta (that is the thing that allows programs to run on the intel based macs, right?)?
    XP boots! It is not virtualized or emulated. It is XP running on a dual core machine. In fact, the best photoshop performance on a Mac right now is to boot into XP, because Adobe hasn't released a Intel-native OS X photoshop yet.

    Indeed, the MacBook is perhaps the fastest Windows laptop, period, with dual 2GHz processors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash
    XP boots! It is not virtualized or emulated. It is XP running on a dual core machine. In fact, the best photoshop performance on a Mac right now is to boot into XP, because Adobe hasn't released a Intel-native OS X photoshop yet.

    Indeed, the MacBook is perhaps the fastest Windows laptop, period, with dual 2GHz processors.
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    DeaTH BeFoRe WeaKNeSs sCaRz*Of*PaiN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cadana
    is that your mac book pro in the pics or did you get those online? i asked for my parents to get my one for my b-day later this month. how is it? ive gotten so sick of windows while i have been at college. crashes, bugs, pop-ups/adware, and recently my printer isnt working and its too close to the end of school for me to sit down and really figure whats wrong. that is actually great news because i was slightly going to miss some of the apps available on windows that i have (ie autocad progs, 3ds max etc.).

    about how fast do the windows programs operate. im assuming they dont take advantage of the dual core-processors since its not universal binary, but do they run as fast as mac apps that use rosetta (that is the thing that allows programs to run on the intel based macs, right?)?
    Those aren't mine. I'm getting one in the future. All the Mac apps using Rosetta are considerably slower than they should be running out. For example...Photoshop is noticeably slower and will remain slow until Adobe releases an Intel version later on next year.

    However, from what I've read, Windows is really fast and all the apps for it run even faster than some of the apps in the Mac environment because they are made for the Windows OS. Rosetta is sort of almost "emulating" the Mac software, so it'll be a while before all software is Intel Core Duo compatible. If you get an Intel Mac, you won't have to worry about saying good bye to all your old software because of Apple Boot Camp.


    about how fast do the windows programs operate. im assuming they dont take advantage of the dual core-processors since its not universal binary, but do they run as fast as mac apps that use rosetta (that is the thing that allows programs to run on the intel based macs, right?)?
    The programs will run just as fast as they would on any other Intel Core Duo PC. There's no difference because it doesn't have to emulate anything. It's running natively on the Mac. You'd be able to run autocad and 3dsmax like normal. Rosetta is only for use inside OS X. It allows PowerPC apps to run on the new Intel Core Duo chips.


    XP boots! It is not virtualized or emulated. It is XP running on a dual core machine. In fact, the best photoshop performance on a Mac right now is to boot into XP, because Adobe hasn't released a Intel-native OS X photoshop yet.

    Indeed, the MacBook is perhaps the fastest Windows laptop, period, with dual 2GHz processors.
    Exactly.


    Here's the official site for the software: http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/
    Last edited by sCaRz*Of*PaiN; 04-09-2006 at 09:07 PM.
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    Back in business WBBIRL's Avatar
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    This makes me consider getting one as well... wish it were the other way around though. Someone should make a program that would allow OS X to be run on a desktop PC... as im about to plop 1950$ down on a new system and while I'll need a laptop anyways it will be much cheaper and perform alot better. Its simple fact, you get way more performance for the dollar in a desktop.

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    I'm a huge Apple fan, but I see this as the first step that one day, Will Gates is gonna buy out Jobs. I have a feeling this was pre-arranged a while back: Apple will continue to push the envelope technologically and ergonomically, slowly but surely making it's products available to Windoze users. That makes Apple more attrractive to investors. When Apple seemingly can't go any higher, MS will just buy Apple, and then have everything. Thus making Jobs a fellow billionaire and Will gates having in his stable the best computer maker on the planet. It's win-win (no pun intended)
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    Quote Originally Posted by BG5150
    I'm a huge Apple fan, but I see this as the first step that one day, Will Gates is gonna buy out Jobs. I have a feeling this was pre-arranged a while back: Apple will continue to push the envelope technologically and ergonomically, slowly but surely making it's products available to Windoze users. That makes Apple more attrractive to investors. When Apple seemingly can't go any higher, MS will just buy Apple, and then have everything. Thus making Jobs a fellow billionaire and Will gates having in his stable the best computer maker on the planet. It's win-win (no pun intended)
    1) Jobs is already a billionaire. There's this little thing called Pixar.
    2) Jobs hates Gates and Microsoft and loves to **** with them.
    3) OS X and Mac hardware have a huge upside, whereas Vista is a disaster.
    4) Google is the big player in the user market, not Microsoft.

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    Back in business WBBIRL's Avatar
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    If anything alienware would benifit from being a sub company under DELL, DELL has 100X the buying power that Alienware does and could get the same parts at lower prices. You may even see Alienware prices begin to aproach mildy sensible prices as well. Nothing like building a 2000$ PC from the ground up that would PWN the living hell out of an Alienware that costs 1000$ more. And you dont have to take that ugly weirdass shaped case.


    As far as this whole Apple Boot Camp thing.. theres several things im confused about.

    Do you have to have an "Intel Mac" or whatever that is????

    Is this computer running both Windows XP and MAC OS X independantly or is it emulating one or the other, and if so which one???

    Is a "MacBook" a new line of these computers in which you run this bootcamp thing on MAX OS X to emulate XP???

    Do you have to have the intel core duo processor???


    Im a little lost in it all really.

    Why cant you load MAC OS into a normal PC???

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    As far as this whole Apple Boot Camp thing.. theres several things im confused about.

    Do you have to have an "Intel Mac" or whatever that is????
    Yes. It is a Mac with one of the new Intel Dual cores.

    Is this computer running both Windows XP and MAC OS X independantly or is it emulating one or the other, and if so which one???
    The computer is running Windows XP "natively", which means it is NOT emulated. Emulation has been around for a while, but it is terribly slow.
    Also, these machines (like any) can be set up to "dual boot", meaning you choose which OS you want when the computer turns on.

    Is a "MacBook" a new line of these computers in which you run this bootcamp thing on MAX OS X to emulate XP???
    Essentially yes.

    Do you have to have the intel core duo processor???
    I believ it is an intel dual core, but not the Duo. The Duo is a brand name that is avilable with Intel Centrino products (correct me on this).

    Why cant you load MAC OS into a normal PC???
    In a nutshell hardware. The processor and the remainder of the architecture of the PCs is WAY different than that of Macs.

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    DeaTH BeFoRe WeaKNeSs sCaRz*Of*PaiN's Avatar
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    Is a "MacBook" a new line of these computers in which you run this bootcamp thing on MAX OS X to emulate XP???
    You don't emulate it! It runs natively!!!!!!! JUST AS IF IT WERE ON A REGULAR PC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    I believ it is an intel dual core, but not the Duo. The Duo is a brand name that is avilable with Intel Centrino products (correct me on this).
    No, it's using the Intel Core Duo.
    Last edited by sCaRz*Of*PaiN; 04-10-2006 at 07:01 PM.
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    Back in business WBBIRL's Avatar
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    So Bootcamp was never to emulate XP but allow it to co exist on the same laptop??? If thats true would it even be allow on the same HDD???

    So what im gathing so far is this thing is a hodgepodge of hardware capable of running both, and where does bootcamp tie into any of this????

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    So Bootcamp was never to emulate XP but allow it to co exist on the same laptop??? If thats true would it even be allow on the same HDD???
    You partition the hard drive and the computer becomes dual-bootable. It's not complicated. There is no emulation. It's completely bootable so it runs like it should at full speed.


    So what im gathing so far is this thing is a hodgepodge of hardware capable of running both, and where does bootcamp tie into any of this????
    I don't know what you mean exactly. Apple Boot Camp allows a Macintosh Intel-based computer to dual-boot OS X and Windows XP. Apple has finally broken through the crappy age of emulating XP...which is VERY slow. Now, with Apple Boot Camp, you can boot directly into Windows XP upon start up. You can choose to boot into either Windows XP or OS X whenever you want. No emulation at all. Very cool.

    http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/
    Last edited by sCaRz*Of*PaiN; 04-10-2006 at 08:19 PM.
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    Back in business WBBIRL's Avatar
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    So boot camp is like grub for linux then....

    Hmm seems to make more sense now. I just dont like the hardware limitations

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    DeaTH BeFoRe WeaKNeSs sCaRz*Of*PaiN's Avatar
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    What hardware limitations? You mean only being able to buy from Apple? That's the only way you'll be able to run OS X natively without any issues. But if you're never going to use OS X then you can buy any PC you want.
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    Back in business WBBIRL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sCaRz*Of*PaiN
    What hardware limitations? You mean only being able to buy from Apple? That's the only way you'll be able to run OS X natively without any issues. But if you're never going to use OS X then you can buy any PC you want.

    Your stuck with that one line of processors right, it has to be an Intel Core Duo?

    So IMHO that means your stuck, and I dont think you'd be able to overclock at all either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WBBIRL
    So IMHO that means your stuck, and I dont think you'd be able to overclock at all either.
    And then you'll realize that none of that matters and overclocking is like suping up a front wheel drive economy box.

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