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Thread: Is Crossfit alone enough?

  1. #26
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    Oh, so any of the top athletes who put you to shame aren't included in your statement? Gotcha. Get real, man. Do you know how many people use crossfit? About 100x more than what you see post in the comments. The number one weightlifter in the USA uses crossfit. If it didn't help his sport, why bother? The reason is that it DOES help his sport. And his gym is producing some kick ass athletes.

    Maybe Josh didn't build a 575 deadlift with Crossfit only. No one is claiming that Crossfit is the end all be all program. It's a GPP program. Use it to build a foundation and then expand into specific areas that interest you. MOST people will still see strength and size gains because they are FAR away from needing specialization. Hell, I am still seeing improvement and I've been training a lot longer than Fix. If Crossfit did nothing for strength or size, you'd think that my strength and size would have disappeared after 4 months?

    If you understood GPP, you'd understand that it relates to everyone's goals.

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  2. #27
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    If you're a PLer peaking in strength, crossfit won't help your 1RM. But if you're an average joe that does bench and bicep curls, you can be damn certain that crossfit will help your 1RM in a variety of lifts.
    I never said it was a bad program. You're being a bit defensive don't you think? The OP asked "Is Crossfit enough?" and I believe it depends on your goals - that's it.

    My point is that most people focus on specialized programs way too soon. Crossfit is a GPP program. GPP programs are good. Maybe you view 1-2 of the workouts and think it's all cardio, but we've been through this before. They do a very similar amount of ME work compared to PL programs, ALONG with a bunch of other stuff.
    I never, ever thought it was ALL cardio or strength-endurance. As you've just stated, it is a GPP program and as such it should be commonsense that you are going to need more carefully programmed approach if you more specific goals.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
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  3. #28
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    For a beginner, or someone coming off of a layoff, I think the whole issue is as simple as: lift heavy weights a few times a week and eat a lot.

    In such a case, the limiting factor for gaining muscle mass is probably not the weight program so much as the food, as long as some basic hypertrophy-inducing activities occur. As such, Crossfit is probably just as good as WBB#1 or Westside and vice versa... so perhaps the question should be, are there other fitness goals like cardio or powerlifting?

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  4. #29
    Senior Member Canadian Crippler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    Oh, so any of the top athletes who put you to shame aren't included in your statement? Gotcha. Get real, man. Do you know how many people use crossfit? About 100x more than what you see post in the comments. The number one weightlifter in the USA uses crossfit. If it didn't help his sport, why bother? The reason is that it DOES help his sport. And his gym is producing some kick ass athletes.
    Yes, because people on this site are top athletes. It's wannabebig. 99% of us just want to get big and strong. And if you think top athletes (or the ones who "set me to shame") use primarily crossfit, you're out of your mind.

    Maybe Josh didn't build a 575 deadlift with Crossfit only. No one is claiming that Crossfit is the end all be all program. It's a GPP program. Use it to build a foundation and then expand into specific areas that interest you.
    To be specific, GPP indicates theres an actual sport to be trained for. In this case, there isn't. So why would it make sense to do GPP? Recommending GPP to someone who wants to be "big and strong", even as a beginning program, isn't the most efficient plan.
    MOST people will still see strength and size gains because they are FAR away from needing specialization. Hell, I am still seeing improvement and I've been training a lot longer than Fix.
    I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that bodybuilders and strength athletes shouldn't primarily be doing Crossfit. I say this because all the people who have primarily done Crossfit for years have not so impressive numbers.

    If Crossfit did nothing for strength or size, you'd think that my strength and size would have disappeared after 4 months?
    I never said that.

    If you understood GPP, you'd understand that it relates to everyone's goals.

    If you understood everyone's goals, you'd understand that using a GPP based program as the primary workouts is far from the most efficient for certain people (the mass majority on this site, beginner or not)
    "I added some db curls with the pink weights for a bit of a burn." - Rookiebldr

    "im assuming the holy (big) 3 are: curls, bench, legs?" - Saggas

    "had a huge ass burn on my triceps while I was doing those kickbacks, so they'll likely be staying with my exercise program." - Zearoth

    "most of my burned calories coming from something called Basal. Wtf does a leaf have to do with any of it?" - Votorx

    "We have a lot of people like that on our campus, all hippies and things, that go around preaching against corporations, jocks, preps, accountants, and anyone else that feels the need to shower more than occasionally." - Shankerr

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  5. #30
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei
    I never said it was a bad program. You're being a bit defensive don't you think? The OP asked "Is Crossfit enough?" and I believe it depends on your goals - that's it.
    I took issue with the "limit strength" comment since it depends on where you are. For an experienced powerlifter, switching focus wouldn't result in more strength. For most people, especially fix, building a base should be primary focus. So I apologize if I sounded defensive, I just didn't agree with the statement in every scenario. No hard feelings.
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  6. #31
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian Crippler
    Yes, because people on this site are top athletes. It's wannabebig. 99% of us just want to get big and strong. And if you think top athletes (or the ones who "set me to shame") use primarily crossfit, you're out of your mind.
    Mitch, I'd really like to see these "top crossfitters" that you're talking about. I think your perception is skewed based on what you may have read in a few WOD comments. Because I can guarantee there are plenty of top athletes in a range of sports who use crossfit as their S&C program. Just because they don't post on the site doesn't mean they aren't heavily involved. And even if top athletes aren't using "Crossfit" they are CERTAINLY using GPP to some degree.

    To be specific, GPP indicates theres an actual sport to be trained for.
    Wrong. GPP = general physical preparedness, which is essentially your ability to perform well at any given task. Next!

    So why would it make sense to do GPP? Recommending GPP to someone who wants to be "big and strong", even as a beginning program, isn't the most efficient plan.
    Because GPP should come before SPP. Build a base, then expand. If your goal is to be big, you need to be strong. In order to be strong, you need balance. GPP helps bring that balance. Look at top level strength athletes and you'll notice their primary focus is exposing weaknesses and fixing them. Why? Because fixing a weakness is the easiest way to improve. A good GPP program will expose weaknesses. Before you discuss this any further, read "The Education of a Powerlifter" by Dave Tate. Maybe then you'll clue in.

    I'm just saying that bodybuilders and strength athletes shouldn't primarily be doing Crossfit. I say this because all the people who have primarily done Crossfit for years have not so impressive numbers.
    Crossfit is just an organized approach to GPP. Most athletes use some form of GPP. Take a look at all the people with impressive physiques and impressive strength. 99% of them have impressive levels of GPP. Coincidence?

    If you understood everyone's goals, you'd understand that using a GPP based program as the primary workouts is far from the most efficient for certain people (the mass majority on this site, beginner or not)
    I never said it should be the primary routine for everyone. I do think that EVERYONE at EVERY LEVEL can benefit from some degree of GPP work. In this particular instance, I think Fix would see HUGE benefits if he focused on his GPP for awhile.
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  7. #32
    eek... it's lil' Fixation! fixationdarknes's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the responses. I plan to do the CF WoD today and see how I like it.
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    I try to visualize that my girlfriend is under the weight and I have to push the weight up to save her. Of course it doesn't work and I just laugh as I think about the weight slowly crushing her bones. Then I remember it's me under the weight and give 200% effort to push it back up.

  8. #33
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    Another thing people have to understand is that the WOD is just an example of Crossfit. There is a lot more that goes on in various training camps.
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  9. #34
    eek... it's lil' Fixation! fixationdarknes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    Another thing people have to understand is that the WOD is just an example of Crossfit. There is a lot more that goes on in various training camps.
    What do you mean? So by doing CF WoD's, I'm not doing as much work as people in "training camps" are?
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatrb38
    I try to visualize that my girlfriend is under the weight and I have to push the weight up to save her. Of course it doesn't work and I just laugh as I think about the weight slowly crushing her bones. Then I remember it's me under the weight and give 200% effort to push it back up.

  10. #35
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixationdarknes
    What do you mean? So by doing CF WoD's, I'm not doing as much work as people in "training camps" are?
    The WOD is an example of their principles and it works very well. However, it's not the only way to apply their principles. Read my signature - that summarizes crossfit/gpp. Crossfit headquarters does a lot more work with tires, sledgehammers, sleds, rope climbing, oly lifts, etc. It doesn't get posted to the WOD as often because that equipment isn't as popular in commercial gyms. Mike's Gym incorporates Crossfit in a manner that suits their olympic lifters. Other gyms do the same for their athletes.

    Honestly, the WOD is more than enough for most people looking for a good GPP routine. Don't think you're getting shafted by following the WOD. Give it an honest effort for 2 months (what do you have to lose?) and then you'll have a better understanding of what's involved.
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  11. #36
    Senior Member Canadian Crippler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    Mitch, I'd really like to see these "top crossfitters" that you're talking about. I think your perception is skewed based on what you may have read in a few WOD comments. Because I can guarantee there are plenty of top athletes in a range of sports who use crossfit as their S&C program. Just because they don't post on the site doesn't mean they aren't heavily involved. And even if top athletes aren't using "Crossfit" they are CERTAINLY using GPP to some degree.
    My problem never was with CF. It was with using solely CF, or CF very primarily. Saying "athletes" use GPP based workouts primarily is just as stupid as me saying they don't. Linebacker aren't going to be training like LaCrosse players.

    Aside from that, guess what? It's WBB. 99% of people here want to be big and strong, not athletes.

    Wrong. GPP = general physical preparedness, which is essentially your ability to perform well at any given task. Next!
    I had this argument with debussy, taking your side, and I lost. http://www.elitefts.com/documents/ge...eparedness.htm

    Next!

    Because GPP should come before SPP. Build a base, then expand. If your goal is to be big, you need to be strong. In order to be strong, you need balance. GPP helps bring that balance.
    A good workout program with HIIT thrown in will bring this same balance, but also deliver the mass and strength results quicker. Guy 1 and 2 want to get bigger and stronger in the next 12 weeks. Guy 1 goes on a 4x/week heavy weight training split and 2x/week HIIT. Guy 2 does crossfit. Guy 1 WILL get bigger and stronger than Guy 2. Are you denying this?

    Look at top level strength athletes and you'll notice their primary focus is exposing weaknesses and fixing them. Why? Because fixing a weakness is the easiest way to improve. A good GPP program will expose weaknesses. Before you discuss this any further, read "The Education of a Powerlifter" by Dave Tate. Maybe then you'll clue in.
    They don't do Crossfit to fix these weaknesses. PLers would do board presses, rack lockouts, and use bands/chains. OLers would do high pulls and heavy front squats. I don't see how Crossfit exposes weakness any better than weight training would (considering the goal is strength and size), and I certainly don't see how it corrects it any better.


    Crossfit is just an organized approach to GPP. Most athletes use some form of GPP. Take a look at all the people with impressive physiques and impressive strength. 99% of them have impressive levels of GPP. Coincidence?
    99% of people with impressive physiques do not have impressive levels of GPP. With that said, what does this prove? Ronnie could go through many WoD's and demolish some of those top times. You think he'd have trouble with 95lb thrusters or BW chins? He'd destroy a lot of those girls.


    I never said it should be the primary routine for everyone. I do think that EVERYONE at EVERY LEVEL can benefit from some degree of GPP work. In this particular instance, I think Fix would see HUGE benefits if he focused on his GPP for awhile.
    Someone doing weight training + CrossFit won't get any bigger or stronger than someone doing weight training solely. If this was true, the pros would be doing Cindy. If this was true, Dave Tate would be hitting up Angy right about now. Why aren't they? Because it doesn't help them with their goals.
    "I added some db curls with the pink weights for a bit of a burn." - Rookiebldr

    "im assuming the holy (big) 3 are: curls, bench, legs?" - Saggas

    "had a huge ass burn on my triceps while I was doing those kickbacks, so they'll likely be staying with my exercise program." - Zearoth

    "most of my burned calories coming from something called Basal. Wtf does a leaf have to do with any of it?" - Votorx

    "We have a lot of people like that on our campus, all hippies and things, that go around preaching against corporations, jocks, preps, accountants, and anyone else that feels the need to shower more than occasionally." - Shankerr

    "Damn man why are some women just so demonic and evil.. its like you wanna get a stake and mallet and an erection at the same time." - WBBIRL

  12. #37
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    My problem never was with CF. It was with using solely CF, or CF very primarily. Saying "athletes" use GPP based workouts primarily is just as stupid as me saying they don't. Linebacker aren't going to be training like LaCrosse players.
    Their strength and conditioning programs would probably be very similar. The main difference would be in their skill training. Needs don't change, only the level of need. I know plenty of athletes that use GPP/Crossfit as their primary S&C routine, including myself.

    Aside from that, guess what? It's WBB. 99% of people here want to be big and strong, not athletes.
    Anyone who wants to be strong should take this stuff into consideration. Read the article I mentioned. Build a base, then expand. Fix asked a specific question and you're trying to turn this into a debate about everyone else. Do I think everyone, including those who only care about size, would benefit from some level of GPP? Yes. Aside from that, the site's name is being changed.

    I had this argument with debussy, taking your side, and I lost. http://www.elitefts.com/documents/ge...eparedness.htm
    I don't see where my statement is proven to be incorrect. They define GPP as something that helps an athlete improve. And it is. GPP is also a measure of how well you are able to perform in any given task, which they also say. Let's not argue semantics. I do like how the article emphasizes every aspect of GPP that I've been trying to drill into you.

    Guy 1 and 2 want to get bigger and stronger in the next 12 weeks. Guy 1 goes on a 4x/week heavy weight training split and 2x/week HIIT. Guy 2 does crossfit. Guy 1 WILL get bigger and stronger than Guy 2. Are you denying this?
    It would be pretty similar. The big difference would be in other measures of fitness, weighing heavily in favor of the CF guy. I still think you don't understand what CF or GPP is which makes this a pointless discussion.

    They don't do Crossfit to fix these weaknesses. ...I don't see how Crossfit exposes weakness any better than weight training would (considering the goal is strength and size), and I certainly don't see how it corrects it any better.
    They don't necessary use crossfit, but they certainly use GPP. The reason why it works better than specific weight training is because it's so varied. It forces you to do things that you might not be good at, and therefore expose a weakness that is holding back you training - either directly or indirectly. You did read the article that you referenced, right?

    99% of people with impressive physiques do not have impressive levels of GPP.
    Really. Let's hear some names of people with impressive physiques with ****ty performance.

    With that said, what does this prove? Ronnie could go through many WoD's and demolish some of those top times.
    I guess anything is possible, but I highly doubt it. It would be hilarious to watch, though.

    You think he'd have trouble with 95lb thrusters or BW chins? He'd destroy a lot of those girls.
    His weight to strength ratio is pretty ****ty compared to top level athletes, so yes, I think he'd suffer just as much as everyone else.

    Someone doing weight training + CrossFit won't get any bigger or stronger than someone doing weight training solely. If this was true, the pros would be doing Cindy. If this was true, Dave Tate would be hitting up Angy right about now. Why aren't they? Because it doesn't help them with their goals.
    You realize the number one weightlifter in the United States of America does Crossfit, right? You realize that Dave Tate does GPP on a regular basis, right?

    Just making sure.
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  13. #38
    Senior Member Canadian Crippler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    Their strength and conditioning programs would probably be very similar. The main difference would be in their skill training. Needs don't change, only the level of need. I know plenty of athletes that use GPP/Crossfit as their primary S&C routine, including myself.
    Well, take a running back vs. a soccer forward. I highly doubt the programs would be similar at all. One would be working heavily on things such as box squats, 30m, 40m, and sled dragging. I don't think soccer players do any of that stuff, atleast not to the extent a running back would.

    Anyone who wants to be strong should take this stuff into consideration. Read the article I mentioned. Build a base, then expand. Fix asked a specific question and you're trying to turn this into a debate about everyone else. Do I think everyone, including those who only care about size, would benefit from some level of GPP? Yes. Aside from that, the site's name is being changed.
    I agree that one should build a base and then expand it. Why question is why do you think CF would built a better base than heavy weight training? Heavy weight training is far more specific to the goal at hand and would thus be more efficient.

    I don't see where my statement is proven to be incorrect. They define GPP as something that helps an athlete improve. And it is. GPP is also a measure of how well you are able to perform in any given task, which they also say. Let's not argue semantics. I do like how the article emphasizes every aspect of GPP that I've been trying to drill into you.
    They also state "what gpp is" as something which helps an athlete improve at a sport, or variations thereof. I had this argument, I searched many pages, and I found no definition that didn't involve the fact that an athlete was training for a sport.

    It would be pretty similar. The big difference would be in other measures of fitness, weighing heavily in favor of the CF guy. I still think you don't understand what CF or GPP is which makes this a pointless discussion.
    Well, explain to me why there are many guys who begin to train with weights for 6 months and put on a good amount of size and strength meanwhile I'm yet to hear of one person who used only CF and did the same.

    They don't necessary use crossfit, but they certainly use GPP. The reason why it works better than specific weight training is because it's so varied. It forces you to do things that you might not be good at, and therefore expose a weakness that is holding back you training - either directly or indirectly. You did read the article that you referenced, right?
    The article I referenced was to show you that the definition of GPP is inclusive to an actual sport. The article focuses on athletes and similar needs. I'm focusing on the guys on this site, who you are recommending this program to.

    Care to give me an example of how a powerlifter would find a weakness using GPP that he couldn't find doing bench, squat, deadlift, and variations thereof? Ditto with an Olympic Lifter. What is so magical about GPP that allows them to find this weakness?

    Really. Let's hear some names of people with impressive physiques with ****ty performance.
    Most people with impressive physiques are very strong, and thus could simply power through some of the WoD. Something like, say, 20 burpees, 400m, 5 rounds? I don't think any pro would fair well on that.

    His weight to strength ratio is pretty ****ty compared to top level athletes, so yes, I think he'd suffer just as much as everyone else.
    So you're saying his performance would be ****ty? Then why is it that you say increasing this performance is important in accomplishing the goal of adding mass? The biggest BB in the world, according to you, wouldn't fair well on a typical CF workout. Doesn't that just prove that the performance on GPP-based workout wouldn't have any sort of connection with adding mass?

    You realize the number one weightlifter in the United States of America does Crossfit, right?
    You do realize he does it as probably 1/6th of his training, right?

    You realize that Dave Tate does GPP on a regular basis, right?

    Just making sure.
    Yes, I've read articles of his where he goes into it.

    You seem to think I'm totally against GPP and Crossfit. I'm not. I just don't think it should make up the core of the routine for someone who's goals are to be bigger, stronger, or bigger and stronger.
    "I added some db curls with the pink weights for a bit of a burn." - Rookiebldr

    "im assuming the holy (big) 3 are: curls, bench, legs?" - Saggas

    "had a huge ass burn on my triceps while I was doing those kickbacks, so they'll likely be staying with my exercise program." - Zearoth

    "most of my burned calories coming from something called Basal. Wtf does a leaf have to do with any of it?" - Votorx

    "We have a lot of people like that on our campus, all hippies and things, that go around preaching against corporations, jocks, preps, accountants, and anyone else that feels the need to shower more than occasionally." - Shankerr

    "Damn man why are some women just so demonic and evil.. its like you wanna get a stake and mallet and an erection at the same time." - WBBIRL

  14. #39
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    I'm staying out of this. I agree and don't agree with both of you. This, however...
    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian Crippler
    Ronnie could go through many WoD's and demolish some of those top times. You think he'd have trouble with 95lb thrusters or BW chins? He'd destroy a lot of those girls.
    ...is complete BS. There is NO WAY Ronnie would do worth a crap on most WoDs and he'd very likely collapse before completing them.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
    Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
    Blog: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

  15. #40
    Senior Member Canadian Crippler's Avatar
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    I totally agree, most was a bad choice of words. He could definitely have high times in some of them though. How about when it calls for max's? Even the 20 rep stuff, he'd be in the 400s minimum. Thrusters? He'd destroy. Obviously Ronnie isn't going to fair well when rowing 400m followed by 50 jumping jacks, but he sure as hell can do well on some of the WoD's.
    Last edited by Canadian Crippler; 04-17-2006 at 03:52 PM.
    "I added some db curls with the pink weights for a bit of a burn." - Rookiebldr

    "im assuming the holy (big) 3 are: curls, bench, legs?" - Saggas

    "had a huge ass burn on my triceps while I was doing those kickbacks, so they'll likely be staying with my exercise program." - Zearoth

    "most of my burned calories coming from something called Basal. Wtf does a leaf have to do with any of it?" - Votorx

    "We have a lot of people like that on our campus, all hippies and things, that go around preaching against corporations, jocks, preps, accountants, and anyone else that feels the need to shower more than occasionally." - Shankerr

    "Damn man why are some women just so demonic and evil.. its like you wanna get a stake and mallet and an erection at the same time." - WBBIRL

  16. #41
    Milk Junkie Ironman15's Avatar
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    I also agree and disagree with a lot of this. For one thing I feel that lifting weights besides the aesthetics side is totally pointless if your strength isn't functional in the real world, and I think GPP helps you build functional strength moreso than just heavy weightlifting. Personally I want to be able to use my strength outside of the gym. And I want to be athletic. Thats my biggest goal, to be athletic as ****. Granted I'm never gonna compete in anything noteworthy but I feel the athleticism that GPP gives you is important in whatever you do as well. That being said I think Crossfit alone could definitely build muscle mass and strength. I don't think it would be as effective as say a 5x5 routine, but a 5x5 routine wouldn't give you as much functional strength and athleticism either. In conclusion, to me the best thing to do is to combine crossfit and a 5x5 routine or something of this nature.
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  17. #42
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    Well, take a running back vs. a soccer forward. I highly doubt the programs would be similar at all. One would be working heavily on things such as box squats, 30m, 40m, and sled dragging. I don't think soccer players do any of that stuff, atleast not to the extent a running back would.
    I'm having a hard time not laughing right now. There are university softball pitchers who drag sleds. Females, at that. Maybe you should do a bit more research before you start telling us how athletes train outside of their sport.


    I agree that one should build a base and then expand it. Why question is why do you think CF would built a better base than heavy weight training? Heavy weight training is far more specific to the goal at hand and would thus be more efficient.
    Because GPP/CF is more varied and will help keep things balanced. Sure, you can do that with traditional weight lifting routines, but guess what? The closer you get to being balanced, the closer you get to looking like GPP/CF. Weight lifting IS Crossfit!


    They also state "what gpp is" as something which helps an athlete improve at a sport, or variations thereof. I had this argument, I searched many pages, and I found no definition that didn't involve the fact that an athlete was training for a sport.
    General Physical Preparedness is a buzz word that describes your level of fitness. Prove me wrong. You can't. No article in the world can prove me wrong on that.

    Well, explain to me why there are many guys who begin to train with weights for 6 months and put on a good amount of size and strength meanwhile I'm yet to hear of one person who used only CF and did the same.
    Both programs produce results. Size is more about food than training. So while those who just want to look good don't really care about their strength to size ratio, athletes certainly do. Does it mean that an athletes training method wouldn't produce similar size gains if he/she fed herself in a similar manner to the bodybuilder? That's the part you're missing.

    Care to give me an example of how a powerlifter would find a weakness using GPP that he couldn't find doing bench, squat, deadlift, and variations thereof? Ditto with an Olympic Lifter. What is so magical about GPP that allows them to find this weakness?
    You can find weaknesses within a variety of exercises. I never said GPP had exclusive rights on finding and correcting weaknesses. It's one benefit, that if done properly, allows an athlete to identify and improve without specific sport practise.

    Most people with impressive physiques are very strong, and thus could simply power through some of the WoD. Something like, say, 20 burpees, 400m, 5 rounds? I don't think any pro would fair well on that.
    Kevin Levrone? I'm sure there are others. I also think the pros are a piss poor representation of bodybuilders in general. If we look at the local guys here at WBB (chase, will, yates, etc), I'm pretty sure they would all fair well in most/all of the bench marks.

    So you're saying his performance would be ****ty?
    Nope, I'm saying it would probably be pretty similar to the scores you see posted on a daily basis. He has more absolute strength than a lot of people, but GPP isn't always about absolute strength. Sometimes. But not always. I think he'd do okay, but he probably wouldn't destroy anything.

    Then why is it that you say increasing this performance is important in accomplishing the goal of adding mass?
    Really ... can you show me where I said this? Improving your GPP will help your strength training. Combine strength training with enough food and you'll grow. It helps, but it's indirect.

    The biggest BB in the world, according to you, wouldn't fair well on a typical CF workout.
    I said I don't think he'd destroy anything.

    Doesn't that just prove that the performance on GPP-based workout wouldn't have any sort of connection with adding mass?
    You can get big without a decent level of GPP. But your performance in the gym would probably increase if you had higher levels of GPP. Better performance in the gym = better gains. Of course there is a point of diminishing returns (as with anything) and that's something that is specific to each individual athlete.

    You do realize he does it as probably 1/6th of his training, right?
    http://www.mikesgym.org/wod.php Kinda looks like they do some sort of GPP every day. Cool.

    You seem to think I'm totally against GPP and Crossfit. I'm not. I just don't think it should make up the core of the routine for someone who's goals are to be bigger, stronger, or bigger and stronger.
    I don't think you're against it, I just don't think you fully understand it. Depending on someone's level and ultimate goals, there's absolutely nothing wrong with using a GPP program as their core training routine. Most athletes do two things: skill training and S&C. GPP is S&C. Cool, eh?
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    Who me? Chubrock's Avatar
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    Mitch, why do you feel like you can't gain a good amount of size following CF (GPP) principles? Most of the CF principles focus around using the body as one unit, utilizing a lot of compound lifts to accomplish this. These compound lifts, both traditional (squats, cleans, deads) and nontraditional (sandbag training, sledgehammer work etc etc) go a long way in making up an effective split. I don't see how you can say that you can't gain a good amount of size following the principles that CF sets forward. I guarantee you, that if I ate enough food, I could gain a good amount of size and strength following the principles.

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    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Well, take a running back vs. a soccer forward. I highly doubt the programs would be similar at all. One would be working heavily on things such as box squats, 30m, 40m, and sled dragging. I don't think soccer players do any of that stuff, atleast not to the extent a running back would.
    CC,

    Why not? If the main goal is to increase their general conditioning they can definitely train in the same manner. Now if they are training specifially for something that is geared towards their sport then that is where SPP comes into play.
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  20. #45
    eek... it's lil' Fixation! fixationdarknes's Avatar
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    Quite an interesting thread. What's SPP though?
    Last edited by fixationdarknes; 04-17-2006 at 06:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatrb38
    I try to visualize that my girlfriend is under the weight and I have to push the weight up to save her. Of course it doesn't work and I just laugh as I think about the weight slowly crushing her bones. Then I remember it's me under the weight and give 200% effort to push it back up.

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    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    fix, SPP = specific physical preparedness. Something that is directly involved in your sport. For a powerlifter it would be squat/bench/dead. For a baseball player it would be running/throwing/batting. Etc.

    I just want to put an end to the argument between Mitch and I before things get out of hand. I have very strong views on the benefits of GPP. Maybe I'm biased because it made such a dramatic difference in so many aspects of my training. Maybe I'm biased because I've watched Jodi's strength and conditioning improve tremendously in a very short period of time. Maybe I'm biased because I was bored of routines. Maybe I'm biased because my conditioning has improved so much that my confidence in tackling hardcore workouts is through the roof. Who knows. What I do know is that I'm in the best shape of my life, I feel great, I've set numerous PRs this year, and I've only touched the tip of the iceberg. So if I'm over enthusiastic about introducing the concept of GPP to someone, you'll understand why.
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    And any running back whose training isn't similar to a soccer forward is a tard, and vice versa. A soccer forward would need more cardiovascular endurance of course, but aside from that, kicking, and taking a hit, each have basically the same physical requirements. The forward still has to sprint, jump, cut, and be explosive at many point during the soccer game. Likewise, the runningback needs endurance if he hopes to run 20+ plays a game.
    Last edited by Meat_Head; 04-17-2006 at 06:48 PM.
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    eek... it's lil' Fixation! fixationdarknes's Avatar
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    Thanks everyone for your input to this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatrb38
    I try to visualize that my girlfriend is under the weight and I have to push the weight up to save her. Of course it doesn't work and I just laugh as I think about the weight slowly crushing her bones. Then I remember it's me under the weight and give 200% effort to push it back up.

  24. #49
    Senior Member Canadian Crippler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    I'm having a hard time not laughing right now. There are university softball pitchers who drag sleds. Females, at that. Maybe you should do a bit more research before you start telling us how athletes train outside of their sport.
    University softball pitching girls are doing sleg dragging with similar intensity to how a running back would? You can laugh, but it would just be at yourself. If you think the training programs of football stars is similar to soccer stars you're fooling yourself.

    Because GPP/CF is more varied and will help keep things balanced. Sure, you can do that with traditional weight lifting routines, but guess what? The closer you get to being balanced, the closer you get to looking like GPP/CF. Weight lifting IS Crossfit!
    The, the addition of size or strength alone will be much slower with CS than with traditional weightlifting. This alone should be enough to persuade a trainee not to primarily use it. Secondly, I'd like you to take a look at my routine in my journal and tell me what is inbalanced about it. A balanced weightlifting routine is NOTHING like Crossfit. It's far, far more efficient from a size and strength standpoint.

    General Physical Preparedness is a buzz word that describes your level of fitness. Prove me wrong. You can't. No article in the world can prove me wrong on that.
    Logical fallacy. There are giant ants living in the centre of earth controlling our minds. Prove me wrong. You can't. No article in the world can prove me wrong on that. If I show you articles that state it's sport specific, and you show me nothing, it's safe to assume my definition as correct.

    Both programs produce results. Size is more about food than training. So while those who just want to look good don't really care about their strength to size ratio, athletes certainly do. Does it mean that an athletes training method wouldn't produce similar size gains if he/she fed herself in a similar manner to the bodybuilder? That's the part you're missing.
    I was waiting for you to call me out on that. It's interesting, and we'll never know. We do know that the CF program does not produce equivalent strength results to a traditional weight training program. Stength is needed to add size. So it would make sense that the CF program wouldn't produce as much mass as a traditional weightlifting program.

    You can find weaknesses within a variety of exercises. I never said GPP had exclusive rights on finding and correcting weaknesses. It's one benefit, that if done properly, allows an athlete to identify and improve without specific sport practise.
    I NEVER said athletes shouldn't be doing GPP. I asked how a powerlifter would find a weakness using GPP that he wouldn't doing exercises in the gym.

    Kevin Levrone? I'm sure there are others. I also think the pros are a piss poor representation of bodybuilders in general. If we look at the local guys here at WBB (chase, will, yates, etc), I'm pretty sure they would all fair well in most/all of the bench marks.
    And what does this prove exactly? Did any of these guys ever do GPP-based workouts? I don't see how this is relevant to your argument, all your saying is that some of these big and strong guys would be good at Crossfit. My argument is that the Crossfit guys aren't good at being big and strong, thus why carry over their training principles?

    Really ... can you show me where I said this? Improving your GPP will help your strength training. Combine strength training with enough food and you'll grow. It helps, but it's indirect.
    Your making connections that quite frankly aren't proven. Your saying if A helps B, and B has a connection with C, than A helps C. There are tons of strong SOBs who anything but big. There are tons of strong SOBs who eat and weigh a lot but after a cut still wouldn't be jacked. Strength and size obviously have a very important connection, but saying that anything that will make you a bit stronger will make you a bit bigger isn't true.


    You can get big without a decent level of GPP. But your performance in the gym would probably increase if you had higher levels of GPP. Better performance in the gym = better gains. Of course there is a point of diminishing returns (as with anything) and that's something that is specific to each individual athlete.
    It's quite possible, it also might not make a difference. As I said, I am anything but anti GPP-based workouts. You're arguing that the addition of GPP is beneficial. I never argued otherwise. I said using a GPP-based program as the core of a routine for someone looking for size/strength is inefficient.

    http://www.mikesgym.org/wod.php Kinda looks like they do some sort of GPP every day. Cool.
    How is this anything like CrossFit?

    I don't think you're against it, I just don't think you fully understand it. Depending on someone's level and ultimate goals, there's absolutely nothing wrong with using a GPP program as their core training routine. Most athletes do two things: skill training and S&C. GPP is S&C. Cool, eh?
    Most of us aren't athletes. Cool, eh?

    Here's facts: Thousands of people have gotten super strong and massive off of traditional weight training.

    I'm yet to see one person who is super strong and massive who has used CF-like workouts throughout their whole training career.
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  25. #50
    Senior Member Canadian Crippler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubrock
    Mitch, why do you feel like you can't gain a good amount of size following CF (GPP) principles? Most of the CF principles focus around using the body as one unit, utilizing a lot of compound lifts to accomplish this. These compound lifts, both traditional (squats, cleans, deads) and nontraditional (sandbag training, sledgehammer work etc etc) go a long way in making up an effective split. I don't see how you can say that you can't gain a good amount of size following the principles that CF sets forward. I guarantee you, that if I ate enough food, I could gain a good amount of size and strength following the principles.
    And I guarantee you that if you ate the same amount of food, but followed a traditional weight training split, you'd gain even more strength and size.
    "I added some db curls with the pink weights for a bit of a burn." - Rookiebldr

    "im assuming the holy (big) 3 are: curls, bench, legs?" - Saggas

    "had a huge ass burn on my triceps while I was doing those kickbacks, so they'll likely be staying with my exercise program." - Zearoth

    "most of my burned calories coming from something called Basal. Wtf does a leaf have to do with any of it?" - Votorx

    "We have a lot of people like that on our campus, all hippies and things, that go around preaching against corporations, jocks, preps, accountants, and anyone else that feels the need to shower more than occasionally." - Shankerr

    "Damn man why are some women just so demonic and evil.. its like you wanna get a stake and mallet and an erection at the same time." - WBBIRL

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