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Thread: Is Crossfit alone enough?

  1. #51
    Senior Member Canadian Crippler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maki Riddington
    CC,

    Why not? If the main goal is to increase their general conditioning they can definitely train in the same manner. Now if they are training specifially for something that is geared towards their sport then that is where SPP comes into play.
    I was referring to there SPP, yes. I'd expect that most athletes would be conditioned in more or less a similar manner. A running back clearly has different needs than a soccer forward. All I'm saying is you wont see a soccer forward running the 30m and doing heavy box squats.
    "I added some db curls with the pink weights for a bit of a burn." - Rookiebldr

    "im assuming the holy (big) 3 are: curls, bench, legs?" - Saggas

    "had a huge ass burn on my triceps while I was doing those kickbacks, so they'll likely be staying with my exercise program." - Zearoth

    "most of my burned calories coming from something called Basal. Wtf does a leaf have to do with any of it?" - Votorx

    "We have a lot of people like that on our campus, all hippies and things, that go around preaching against corporations, jocks, preps, accountants, and anyone else that feels the need to shower more than occasionally." - Shankerr

    "Damn man why are some women just so demonic and evil.. its like you wanna get a stake and mallet and an erection at the same time." - WBBIRL

  2. #52
    Senior Member Canadian Crippler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    I just want to put an end to the argument between Mitch and I before things get out of hand. I have very strong views on the benefits of GPP. Maybe I'm biased because it made such a dramatic difference in so many aspects of my training. Maybe I'm biased because I've watched Jodi's strength and conditioning improve tremendously in a very short period of time. Maybe I'm biased because I was bored of routines. Maybe I'm biased because my conditioning has improved so much that my confidence in tackling hardcore workouts is through the roof. Who knows. What I do know is that I'm in the best shape of my life, I feel great, I've set numerous PRs this year, and I've only touched the tip of the iceberg. So if I'm over enthusiastic about introducing the concept of GPP to someone, you'll understand why.
    I'm also probably biased. I did CF primarily for a little while (1 month maybe) and my strength stagnated, even fell, aside from chinup strength. My joints were hurting and I thought it was Accutane. It wasn't, it was the fact that 3x a week I was doing hundreds upon hundreds of reps, all explosive. I stopped doing it all together 2 weeks ago. This week I added 5 reps to my previous Incline DB Press PR and added 4 reps to my previous DL PR. So I hope you understand why I personally find it too hard to believe that the GPP stuff actually assists in any way.
    Last edited by Canadian Crippler; 04-17-2006 at 08:41 PM.
    "I added some db curls with the pink weights for a bit of a burn." - Rookiebldr

    "im assuming the holy (big) 3 are: curls, bench, legs?" - Saggas

    "had a huge ass burn on my triceps while I was doing those kickbacks, so they'll likely be staying with my exercise program." - Zearoth

    "most of my burned calories coming from something called Basal. Wtf does a leaf have to do with any of it?" - Votorx

    "We have a lot of people like that on our campus, all hippies and things, that go around preaching against corporations, jocks, preps, accountants, and anyone else that feels the need to shower more than occasionally." - Shankerr

    "Damn man why are some women just so demonic and evil.. its like you wanna get a stake and mallet and an erection at the same time." - WBBIRL

  3. #53
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    I'm gonna jump in here and say in your case CC you probably jumped in to too much too quickly. which is why you saw a loss in strength.
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  4. #54
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    Mitch, for some reason I get the feeling that you think CF or GPP in general is just huge rep numbers, or random odd lifts. A lot of the time, I find myself in the gym doing the exact same lifts you portray as being just PL or BB lifts. CF and most GPP (as far as the lifting side) is centered around using your body as one, hence the HUGE amount of compound lifts and exercises you see.

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  5. #55
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Come on man... GPP = GENERAL physical preparedness, muscular endurance for example. SPP = SPECIFIC physical preparedness, like throwing a football. GPP is good for anyone who uses their body. Any athlete, strength athlete, bodybuilder, or average joe can benefit from it in terms of muscular size and strength in addition to other aspects of fitness.
    Last edited by Meat_Head; 04-17-2006 at 11:28 PM.
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  6. #56
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    Mitch,

    Before you debate this any further, you really need to get a grasp on what GPP is. Because honestly, I feel like I'm debating quantum physics with a two year old. Unless you come back with something of value, I'll not respond to you in this thread from here on out.

    1) Your attempt at Crossfit was a bunch of half assed met-con workouts. Of course you lost strength.

    2) The fact that you looked at Mike's Gym and couldn't see the similarities between their WOD and GPP/CF just reinforces my opinion that you really have no clue what GPP or Crossfit really is. Seriously Mitch, Crossfit is everything you do plus more. Crossfit IS weightlifting. You look at a couple of met-con workouts on their front page and assume you understand the entire methodology. You do realize they use every compound lift for 5x5, triples, and singles on a regular basis, right? No, you don't realize that which is exactly why Mike's Gym doesn't look like Crossfit/GPP to you.

    3) The needs of all athletes differ by degree, not kind. That is why a female university softball pitcher will drag a sled with the same relative level of intensity as a NFL running back. She may not use as much weight or go the same distance or repeat with the same frequency, but she's still doing a lot of the things a running back would do. It's not to say every athlete on every team is doing the exact same S&C work, but it's all similar.

    4) I don't need an article to backup my definition of General Physical Preparedness, although they do exist. If you want to argue semantics, that's your choice. But anyone with the ability to think for themselves would be very hard pressed to deny that GPP is someone's preparedness to perform general physical activities. You don't need to be an athlete to perform general physical activities. You don't need to be an athlete to be prepared. GPP = fitness. Having good GPP means you have good fitness. It's really not difficult to understand.

    5) You seem to think that no GPP program would make someone big. Well, the biggest and strongest guys in the world center their entire training around activities that most of us would consider GPP. Farmer's walk, vehicle drags, tire flips, picking up big rocks, etc. Those are all "general" activities. And it's pretty hard to deny that the World's Strongest Man isn't strong.
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  7. #57
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Let me just add this to the fray, because the arguments got really confused IMHO.

    CF does not equal GPP. CF is one kind of GPP program.

    GPP = general physical preparation
    SPP = specialized physical preparation
    SSP = special sports preparation
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
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  8. #58
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    I'm not trying to stir the pot, but this is from Siff (I don't think it proves or disproves, supports or refutes anyone specifically btw). Highlighted portions are also from Siff.

    ... it should always be remembered that the GPP and SPP always from an interconnected unit. In some cases, the GPP and the SPP may even be concurrent or the GPP may be largely indistinguishable from the SPP (Bondarchuk, 1979).
    The GPP is intended to provide balanced physical conditioning in endurance, strength, speed, flexibility and other basic factors of fitness, whereas the SPP concentrates on exercises which are more specific to the particular sport. Characteristically, the GPP may include participation in a variety of different physical activities which provide low intensity, all-around conditioning, with little emphasis on specific sporting skills. Participation in activities such as jogging, swimming, cycling, tennis, or volleyball may be appropriate in this phase for some sports. If the player needs to gain muscle or lose fat, this is regarded as the appropriate period to do so. Sometimes an hypertrophy phase may be included in the GPP if there is a need for gaining functional muscle bulk. The decision to utilize this type of phase should be based on an assessment of the strength deficit discussed previously (Ch 1 and Fig 1.1)
    Sometimes it is important to include very specific SPP-type exercises during the GPP either to rehabilitate any existing injuries or to eliminate any structural or functional deficiencies or imbalances in physique, posture and neuromuscular skill. It may be also relevant to curtail or eliminate standard types of GPP from the training programme of anyone who is an advanced athlete or has trained regularly for a prolonged period at increasing levels of proficiency. Similarly, the use of GPP-type exercises may be appropriate for brief periods during the SPP to facilitate recovery or prevent stagnation.
    Last edited by Sensei; 04-18-2006 at 05:30 AM.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
    Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
    Blog: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

  9. #59
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    I think both of us would agree with those statements. I think the main argument is whether or not GPP is good for building size and strength.
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    I think the main argument is whether or not GPP is good for building size and strength.
    I think this is a meaningless statement.

    Like Siff mentions, GPP can include hypertrophy oriented phases or can solely be hypertrophy work.

    Because GPP can be so varied, the question here really is, is the Crossfit WOD sequence good for building size and strength?

    I think that we agree that the answer is yes and that Crip is silly.

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  11. #61
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    If that were true, explain how Crip did 3 Crossfit sessions (all met-con) over the span of two weeks (February 17th to March 4th) and lost strength and size.
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  12. #62
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    If that were true, explain how Crip did 3 Crossfit sessions (all met-con) over the span of two weeks (February 17th to March 4th) and lost strength and size.
    NOT enuf of teh Roidzors!!!!!!!

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  13. #63
    Iced Earth - Stormrider ArchAngel777's Avatar
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    Crossfit is quite possibly the end-all-be-all for GPP. I have a lot of respect for it. I mean, what is the point in looking huge, ripped and strong if you are whining 4 minutes into manual labor that "my hands hurt! Oh gosh, my back... Oh, I can't keep going"... Its like a big baby huey. If you have the look, you SHOULD have the fitness level behind it.

    I am with Anthony on this completely. Things like Crossfit will completely increase all aspects of your athletic ability.

    Someone else on this site said something that made me laugh, because it was so true... I think it went like this "Great, so you have this great body and physique, but you can't even run a mile" Ain't that the truth? That is pathetic.

  14. #64
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchAngel777
    Ain't that the truth? That is pathetic.
    You're not convincving anyone with this argument. As Crip said, most people here don't care about running a mile or sports performance. They want to be big and muscular.

    I happen to think that Crossfit (perhaps with something like anthony's 5x5 variation) is a good way of achieving that, with additional fitness benefits.

    But telling people that they suck for not being fascinated with energy systems and sprinting speed, etc. probably isn't going to convince anyone of anything except that we're being dicks.

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    If I were to start from scratch as a young 13 year old again, I would do every press, squat, and perhaps deadlifts, for my entire career with chains. -- Dan John

  15. #65
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    I think there are alot more people interested in athletic performance here than you are giving credit... a few off the top of my head are you, me, anthony, blitzforce, belial, ArchAngel, and I'm sure there are plenty more. Anyone here would rather be huge, strong, and in shape as opposed to huge, strong, and incapable.

    There was a time when aesthetics without performance was laughed at. It was also well known then that the best way to build an aesthetic body was to build up athletic performance.
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  16. #66
    Iced Earth - Stormrider ArchAngel777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash
    But telling people that they suck for not being fascinated with energy systems and sprinting speed, etc. probably isn't going to convince anyone of anything except that we're being dicks.
    I am gonna have to dissagree with you on this one. For instance, how many people get told "SQUAT!"?!?!?! Just about everyone gets flamed if they don't squat or work their legs. Why? Because it is absurd to work just your upper body. It also just as absurd to not work on your GPP even a little. I mean, running a mile isn't all-star performance here. You are required to run the mile in a decent time in High School! See the difference is, running 1 mile is something everyone (who isn't injured or para or what not) should be able to do at any time. I didn't say they need to run 3 miles in 18 minutes, just that they need to be able to run (not jog) a mile. That is my opinion on it. Just like everyone one else who is more holy than thou do when it comes to their opinions on Squating.
    Last edited by ArchAngel777; 04-18-2006 at 10:51 AM.

  17. #67
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash
    But telling people that they suck for not being fascinated with energy systems and sprinting speed, etc. probably isn't going to convince anyone of anything except that we're being dicks.
    I agree 100%.
    Quote Originally Posted by ArchAngel777
    It also just as absurd to not work on your GPP even a little. I mean, running a mile isn't all-star performance here. You are required to run the mile in a decent time in High School! See the difference is, running 1 mile is something everyone (who isn't injured or para or what not) should be able to do at any time.
    Required? Have you been to a high school P.E. class lately???
    GPP is not necessarily about being able to run. I could care less about my ability to run a mile. If my profession demanded it, it would be a totally different story, but in my life and with the hobbies I pursue anything more than a short sprint of 200meters or less is almost nonexistent.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
    Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
    Blog: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

  18. #68
    Iced Earth - Stormrider ArchAngel777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei
    Required? Have you been to a high school P.E. class lately???
    Nope, I am not in High School anymore. Just going by what I had to do in High School. The females had to run the 1 mile in under 9 minutes and the males had to run it in under 7:30 to "ace" the test so to speak. Wasn't difficult.

  19. #69
    Iced Earth - Stormrider ArchAngel777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei
    GPP is not necessarily about being able to run. I could care less about my ability to run a mile. If my profession demanded it, it would be a totally different story, but in my life and with the hobbies I pursue anything more than a short sprint of 200meters or less is almost nonexistent.
    Well, actually GPP is just what it stands for. So, if you can't run a mile, your GPP sucks. If you can't do general activities decently, your GPP sucks. Running 1 mile isn't anything special here. Therefore, your GPP sucks if you cannot run a mile. This may or may not apply to you. Perhaps you can run a mile? I don't know and don't care to be honest. If you are happy, great!

  20. #70
    Senior Member Canadian Crippler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    1) Your attempt at Crossfit was a bunch of half assed met-con workouts. Of course you lost strength.
    Met-con? I don't think anyone would lose strength with CF. I did, I don't think that's expected though.

    2) The fact that you looked at Mike's Gym and couldn't see the similarities between their WOD and GPP/CF just reinforces my opinion that you really have no clue what GPP or Crossfit really is. Seriously Mitch, Crossfit is everything you do plus more. Crossfit IS weightlifting. You look at a couple of met-con workouts on their front page and assume you understand the entire methodology. You do realize they use every compound lift for 5x5, triples, and singles on a regular basis, right? No, you don't realize that which is exactly why Mike's Gym doesn't look like Crossfit/GPP to you.
    Taking Mike's Gym out of the equation (it all looks like variations of one type of CF workout), let's deal with CF solely since that is what the argument is about. I've looked at Crossfit, I've looked at EVERY single one of their girls, and I've looked at the WoD's for a while. Rarely do I see something like 3x3, 5x5, or anything similar come up. The closeet I've seen is 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1. The only time I even seen lower rep ranges come up is when you've just done a cycle of exercises for 20 minutes in a row. How you can say that doing workouts that are geared at overall fitness is better than workouts geared specifically for the goal at hand is beyond me. The trainee doesn't care to run a mile fast. The trainee doesn't care if he can do 30 burpees in a row. So logically incorporating these methods into his training is similar to teaching someone in med school about plumbing.

    3) The needs of all athletes differ by degree, not kind. That is why a female university softball pitcher will drag a sled with the same relative level of intensity as a NFL running back. She may not use as much weight or go the same distance or repeat with the same frequency, but she's still doing a lot of the things a running back would do. It's not to say every athlete on every team is doing the exact same S&C work, but it's all similar.
    It differs by degree and kind. Again. you won't find soccer forwards doing box squats or running the 30m. How is that not a difference of kind?

    Even if we assume you're correct, the difference in degrees would be so substantial that calling the training methods similar would still be incorrect.

    4) I don't need an article to backup my definition of General Physical Preparedness, although they do exist. If you want to argue semantics, that's your choice. But anyone with the ability to think for themselves would be very hard pressed to deny that GPP is someone's preparedness to perform general physical activities. You don't need to be an athlete to perform general physical activities. You don't need to be an athlete to be prepared. GPP = fitness. Having good GPP means you have good fitness. It's really not difficult to understand.
    If I have a bunch of articles stating that my definition is correct, and you have none stating yours is, why would we be led to believe you are correct? I'm sorry that authors on sites such as EliteFTS agree with me.

    5) You seem to think that no GPP program would make someone big.
    I never said that. I said CF won't make someone big.

    Well, the biggest and strongest guys in the world center their entire training around activities that most of us would consider GPP. Farmer's walk, vehicle drags, tire flips, picking up big rocks, etc. Those are all "general" activities. And it's pretty hard to deny that the World's Strongest Man isn't strong.
    I don't think the farmers walks and 200lb tire flips these guys perform is in any way similar to throwing a 20lb ball 21 times against a wall followed by 21 burpees.

    As I said above, it's not that CF doesn't address these needs in some manner, it does. It's just not efficient to focus on training aspects that don't relate to your goals, causing a much much lower frequency in the ones that do. Is there heavy weight training in CF? Occasionally there is (very occasionally). But when 1/2 of the workouts involve using 20+ reps and rowing 400m, there just isn't a point to perform this when the goal is to be big and strong.

    If you can find me someone who used CF and only CF and got bigger and/or stronger than someone who followed a traditional weight training program, than be my guest.



    As much as I do like CF, it's a total trend here on WBB. Everyone in this thread always knew about the existance of tire flips, burpees, and rowing. 1/2 of you never tried it until Anthony whored it out. I'm not saying it's a bad program to include, but it's more trendy than essential it seems.
    Last edited by Canadian Crippler; 04-18-2006 at 01:29 PM.
    "I added some db curls with the pink weights for a bit of a burn." - Rookiebldr

    "im assuming the holy (big) 3 are: curls, bench, legs?" - Saggas

    "had a huge ass burn on my triceps while I was doing those kickbacks, so they'll likely be staying with my exercise program." - Zearoth

    "most of my burned calories coming from something called Basal. Wtf does a leaf have to do with any of it?" - Votorx

    "We have a lot of people like that on our campus, all hippies and things, that go around preaching against corporations, jocks, preps, accountants, and anyone else that feels the need to shower more than occasionally." - Shankerr

    "Damn man why are some women just so demonic and evil.. its like you wanna get a stake and mallet and an erection at the same time." - WBBIRL

  21. #71
    Senior Member Canadian Crippler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
    Come on man... GPP = GENERAL physical preparedness, muscular endurance for example. SPP = SPECIFIC physical preparedness, like throwing a football. GPP is good for anyone who uses their body. Any athlete, strength athlete, bodybuilder, or average joe can benefit from it in terms of muscular size and strength in addition to other aspects of fitness.
    This isn't the argument dude. I'm not denying that there MAY be some benefits of doing GPP-like training additionally. I'm saying that traditional weight lifting as the core of the program would be better than CF as the core of the program, for a beginner looking to gain size and strength.

    Guy 1 and 2 want to get bigger and stronger in the next 12 weeks. Guy 1 goes on a 4x/week heavy weight training split and 2x/week HIIT. Guy 2 does crossfit. Guy 1 WILL get bigger and stronger than Guy 2. Are you denying this?
    It would be pretty similar. The big difference would be in other measures of fitness, weighing heavily in favor of the CF guy. I still think you don't understand what CF or GPP is which makes this a pointless discussion.
    Last edited by Canadian Crippler; 04-18-2006 at 01:24 PM.
    "I added some db curls with the pink weights for a bit of a burn." - Rookiebldr

    "im assuming the holy (big) 3 are: curls, bench, legs?" - Saggas

    "had a huge ass burn on my triceps while I was doing those kickbacks, so they'll likely be staying with my exercise program." - Zearoth

    "most of my burned calories coming from something called Basal. Wtf does a leaf have to do with any of it?" - Votorx

    "We have a lot of people like that on our campus, all hippies and things, that go around preaching against corporations, jocks, preps, accountants, and anyone else that feels the need to shower more than occasionally." - Shankerr

    "Damn man why are some women just so demonic and evil.. its like you wanna get a stake and mallet and an erection at the same time." - WBBIRL

  22. #72
    Senior Member debussy's Avatar
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    To all you trendy crossfit zealouts:

    I would never start a beginner on CF. Have a beginner do 20 snatches in a row and see what happens. $20 he'll get injured and hate lifting. For all you fools thinking CF is a great way for a good way for beginners to build a base... I think that you need to have a solid base before you start CF. Throwing up and dying is not normal. Common sense that the you should take time to master the lifts before trying to do the lifts to failure (or near failure).

    I have no problems with CF... it's great for getting your endurance up. However, I do have a problem with you people who think it's the next best thing. CF type training has existed forever... you guys are suckers to good marketing.


    CF is the solution to world hunger.
    Last edited by Anthony; 04-18-2006 at 04:23 PM. Reason: removed the name calling

  23. #73
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    I'll address these posts later, as I am late for my GPP session at the gym.

    Debussy, you've been around long enough to know that derogatory words are not welcome on this forum.
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  24. #74
    Who me? Chubrock's Avatar
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    Damn Anthony, I never knew I was gay. I'm glad Debussy pointed that out for me.

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  25. #75
    Iced Earth - Stormrider ArchAngel777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by debussy
    To all you trendy crossfit zealouts:

    I would never start a beginner on CF. Have a beginner do 20 snatches in a row and see what happens. $20 he'll get injured and hate lifting. For all you fools thinking CF is a great way for a good way for beginners to build a base... I think that you need to have a solid base before you start CF. Throwing up and dying is not normal. Common sense that the you should take time to master the lifts before trying to do the lifts to failure (or near failure).

    I have no problems with CF... it's great for getting your endurance up. However, I do have a problem with you people who think it's the next best thing. CF type training has existed forever... you guys are suckers to good marketing.
    I am not hateful or resentful to anyone who doesn't like crossfit. I just laugh on the inside, because I know how great it is. Don't like it? Don't do it then. I sure won't lose sleep over your decision... And why should I? You are a big boy and can make your own decisions. I have no affiliation with crossfit, nor will I ever. I just simply believe that crossfit is a great program for GPP.
    Last edited by Anthony; 04-25-2006 at 03:25 PM.

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