ok so ive been watching ufc on spike, and whenever you see these guys train its all lightweight high rep, old school stuff. so i decided to do some investigation and find out whats the deal. i wrote nate the rock quarry on myspace this question.
" ive been a huge fan of ufc since it was on spike, ive followed your career and seen all your fights you have alot of knockout power, heres my question. how come whenever see ufc fighters train no one is using heavy weights???? are you guys jus going easy for the camera of is there no relation between power lifting and power striking?????? "
heres his response
" Good question! Heavy weights are good for one or two reps, but we fight any where from 15 minutes to 25 minutes so we need that endurance strength. And most excercises are for beach muscles, fighters really don't need pecs at all, much better to have a strong back.
Hope this helps"
not im not sure if he speaks for the whole community(lets hope not) but i wanna see what you guys think bout how fighters lift weights. I know tank abbott can bench 600, and seen hughes squatting i think so there is some exceptions.
to sculpt you must first have concrete
You are only as stong as your weakest joint
Some do, some don't, some don't care.
Most are primarily interested in technique over metabolic conditioning over maximal strength.
I would say so to an extent, but most of the power comes from the legs, hips, and core.I would think more chest strength = more punching power
Last edited by Aries3x; 05-02-2006 at 10:42 PM.
I would think more chest strength = more punching power
I think this is possibly the all-time best response on WBB. - Jorge Sanchez
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i knew you were a beast but not that kinda of a beast that eats grown men and children.. lilmase
Not really. It has more to do with CNS adaptation, followed by the mass behind the punch.Originally Posted by cphafner
size of your muscles and the amount of punching power you can generate are only slightly correlated....power comes from technique more then anything
:withstupiOriginally Posted by greathuskie
"The only easy day was yesterday."
Once you learn how to throw effective punches(which really doesn't take that long), the only other contribution you can make to your punch is through strength and mass gains! There is a reason 150lb fighters don't go up against 220lb fighters...Originally Posted by greathuskie
so who would you rather fight, ronnie coleman with proper training or mike tyson in his prime?Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
Neither... cause they're both HUGE STRONG MOFOS!Originally Posted by greathuskie
That argument doesn't make sense unless you find a small, weak, and physically unimpressive guy who can whoop the **** out of a big strong opponent and does so on a regular basis.
Someone mentioned Shamrock @ 210lbs.. as if that's a small bodyweight! Do you think he would be 210lbs if he never trained with weights? Do you think he would've been as good a fighter if he never lifted heavy stuff?
Royce Gracie? Royce took on Kimo who was at 257lbs while he was only 176lbs and dominated him the entire fight.Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
Last edited by DCF; 07-05-2006 at 02:21 PM.
i watched a programme here in the UK called "mind body and kick ass moves". Basically its about this martial arts dude who goes all over the world finding out about fighting techniques very cool!
any way there is some fighting technique and basically they say that all you need is to have big lats and strong tri's. This is as they say the bicep is resistance for a punch. so for example if you curl your arm up and the snap it out (sitll with your biceo facing the sky/celing) thats how they punch! weird at first but then start fighting blindfolded! crazy stuff! sticky fingers i think they call it!
Stan: Here we go -- mac and cheese. (Reads box) "Boil water." What am I, a chemist?
I'm sure lots of them work their shoulders pretty vigorously. They have to be able to keep their hands up for extended periods of time (especially boxers). When I do rounds on the heavy bag my shoulders probably get the biggest beating out of everything. You are also supposed to throw punches with your shoulder so that you aren't snapping your elbow out. I do agree that MOST of your punching power would come from legs and core because when you get down low and explode/twist into your punch you can really get some power.
22 y/o, 6'1, ~205 lbs
You won't find many weak champions when it comes to MMA. Look at the best.. Shamrock, Abbot, Hughes, etc. Its obvious that those guys all payed their dues in the weight room under heavy barbells and dumbells! Abbot is a perfect example of how physical prowess can win over technique... not to say he hasn't spent time on technique.
Gracie, Sakuraba, Yoshida, Liddell... All examples that technique rules no matter how physically gifted you are. I play football for a big university and time and again the smaller/weaker/slower man with better technique owns the bigger/stronger/faster guy with less.Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
LOL Tank is a joke, whens the last time he beat anyone worthwhile? What is his record, 8 and 10? Shamrock was good 10 years ago, the only good example you gave was Hughes. Hughes also has technique which plays a larger role. If you want to see how pure strength does against technique, watch Royce Gracie's early fights or Nogueira vs Bob Sapp.Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
Tank has kicked alot of ass in his life, he's among the best fighters in the world and that warrants respect. There's a reason Shamrock is called the most dangerous man in the world. Obviously there's nothing he can do about his age, but in his day he was an awesome fighter and his mass and strength was a big part of that. I've seen alot of Hughes fights that he would've had his ass handed to him in if not for his immense strength. Bob Sapp is hardly a great example of size vs. technique, he's so huge he's practically not human. The thing that holds him back is the 400lbs he has to move around. All the technique in the world wouldn't do him any good unless he lost some weight enabling him to fight for over a minute without becoming exhausted.Originally Posted by magicman531
The point is, strength and mass are beneficial for fighting. There is literally no way that is not true, except in extreme and exaggerated circumstances.
Actually I've been repeatedly told not to bench (I'm an amateur boxer and kickboxer in the CASK and Boxing Ontario circuits) because by building the chest it makes it harders to keep the elbows in, which is very important. Also, there are cycles u got to go through if u lift weights. Usually fighters aren't supposed to lift more than 2-3 times a week, moderate weight moderate reps, but closer to a fight near peaking, heavy weight, low rep, low volume. Chest is the LEAST important thing for fighting. For boxing, the most improtant is back. for kickboxing, back and legs equally. I don't do any grappling (I did some judo and wrestling but sucked at both so quit after a few months) so I'm not sure what lifts are good for that shiz.
I train with this 15 year old guy and this 23 year old guy (Ali and Oscar respectivley) the younger is weak and thin, the older is stronger and thicker, around 160 lbs. Oscar gets pwned by Ali time and time again simply beacuse Ali has been boxing longer is just a better fighter. It doesn't really matter if you're like up to 50 lbs heavier if you have NO skill - I whup Crippler's ASS all the time and I'm like 140-145. Ask him about the subway station incident yea that's what I thought haha
Last edited by ILL_Mitch; 05-03-2006 at 03:02 PM.
I feel like I'm somewhat educated on this now that I've read basically everything I can get my hands on regarding the subject.
First, a lot of fighters are great in spite of their training. This doesn't mean that training isn't helpful, but someone with great technique and average strength (etc) will generally run over someone with average technique and great strength.
That is not to say that great strength does not make a big difference. Look at Matt Hughes. His strength has definitely helped him win a lot of matches. There also wouldn't be so many well built champions if it didn't make a difference.
I think it's similar to basketball. If I lift weights, work on my vertical and speed, etc, without really ever playing basketball I won't be very good, even compared to someone that doesn't lift weights but plays basketball all the time. But, putting both together can make a big difference, and both are important (look at LeBron James).
Also, I'm surprised that some people are saying not to do bench. If you go to the Sherdog forums, which seems to have a bunch of good fighters, they will tell you the importance of bench. Many Westside-enthusiasts that are knowledgable about MMA will agree that bench (especially floor bench) is very important for punching power. I think these people are better to listen to than boxing trainers, to be honest. They know the mechanics of lifting weights and physiology, and tend to be much more up-to-date than everyday boxing trainers, who oftentimes train their athletes terribly wrong (ie way too much running & stupid weight-loss plans are generally used).
Also, maximal strength definitely helps build punching power. My little brother and I probably use the heavy bag about the same amount, but I bench probably 150 lbs more than him. I can hit much, much harder than him, and it's not a technique issue.
Edit: One more thing. Tank Abbott's "600 lb bench" is BS. Go look it up on Limewire. He has the worst cheat-bench that I've ever seen with 585 lbs.
Last edited by KingJustin; 05-03-2006 at 04:37 PM.
To elaborate on this, I had ILL_Mitch in a front head lock which he escaped from after a minute or so at which point I got him into full body scissors. I then said "Ok, lets stop" or something to that extent, at which point he took mount after a released the hold.Originally Posted by ILL_Mitch
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I think his response is indicative of way many fighters think. They may be good or even great fighters but they still don't truely understand how they could be even better with the proper training. Endurance is only one of the several important qualitys that should be exploited during training.
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I wrestled and boxed in the past ...1st off Tank Abbott is far from the best let alone a decent pro fighter .
2cd ... excessive muscle mass slows you down . It's hard to hold your arms up during a fight when you are all muscle bulk ( trust me I know) . All the best fighters usually have a good balance of muscle mass to body size .
Look at Bob Sapp , he should be the world champ if more muscle means the best fighter . Look at Shamrock , he was his best when he was not over 210 lbs . He even says in his book too much muscle slows you down and tires you out .
Lastly ... technique will rule over pure strength more often than not .
Give me your broken , give me your beaten ... I will build them up , I will lead them ... to the threshhold . Make you stronger , make you believe .
heres the part i dont understand bout the whole thing. and maybe its jus cuz i dont like nate quarrys response.
he says heavy weights are for 1 or 2 reps, wrong thats called maxxing, that wasnt my question.
second he says big weights wont build endurance, but imo endurace should be built with cardio training
then he says all exercises are for beach muscles, when i tghink its the opposite,
and lastly he says a strong back is crucial, but wouldnt do heavy rows build a strong back.
what im getting at is why dont these guys build technique and lift weights more intelligently to have a good comprimise between strength and technique
to sculpt you must first have concrete
You are only as stong as your weakest joint
The reason is just misinformation. Hell, ask a bunch of the guys here to explain all of Verkhoshansky's principles like the force-velocity curve or how to build a vertical and many probably won't be able to tell you despite a lot of reading on similar subjects. When principles like running forever and doing nothing but endurance work and just "training hard" are ingrained in a lot of trainers, I don't find it too surprising.
i think you are the one who doesnt know what you are talking about.Originally Posted by JHolmes145
doing 1 to 2 reps is not "maxing" you are saying that the westside barbell method is nothing but maxing on ME days then?
how are you going to condition your arms and other muscles to endure lots of punching/grabbing/holding with just cardio? weights are a perfectly good way to condtion muscles.
about the beach muscle thing. as stated before you dont need a ton of muscle mass to be a dominant fighter.
-Girls like big strong men, all the other men has to find a niche or a thing they supposedly love, you know...like saving whales or reading books, to get laid.
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Originally Posted by fixationdarknes