The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

It’s no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    eek... it's lil' Fixation! fixationdarknes's Avatar
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    Is there a way to combine both the Olympic and Power lifts into one routine?

    I was previously mostly interested in Squat, Bench, and Deadlift. But after reading articles about how olympic lifts are really good for explosive strength, I became interested in that too. And then I saw that Pyrros Dimas video, and I really want to get strong like that.

    So, my question is: what are the main lifts that olympic lifters train with, and the main lifts that powerlifters train with, and how do you combine the two?

    I'm thinking that one could really only train with one of them, but I want to do both. Hm...any ideas?
    Lifting Journal
    Age: 20, Height: 5'7", Weight: 165, Deadlift: 405, 9.5" Squat: 230 x 10, Bench: 195 (3x5)

    Quote Originally Posted by fatrb38
    I try to visualize that my girlfriend is under the weight and I have to push the weight up to save her. Of course it doesn't work and I just laugh as I think about the weight slowly crushing her bones. Then I remember it's me under the weight and give 200% effort to push it back up.

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    There is crossover, and you can do both. Don't get pulled in too many directions though - there are so many fun avenues of competition that you can just end up being pretty damn weak at everything... There are templates out there (WS hybrids, etc.) that incorporate OLs into PL routines. That might be the way to go.

    The Weightlifting Encyclopedia by Arthur Dreschler is a great book for OL, but it might be a little more than you need.

    Check some online sources for help on learning the OLs. There are some decent forums as well that have more OLers on them - you could definately seek advice there too. I haven't been to them in a while, but Old School Strength Training, Fortified Iron, and Power & Bulk are a few that come to mind. Some of them are not the most newbie-friendly, so lurk a while before posting questions Here is a big, big list of forums for you, if you are interested: http://johnnymnemonic.proboards44.co...ead=1117846683

  4. #3
    eek... it's lil' Fixation! fixationdarknes's Avatar
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    Dang, I don't know which to pursue. lol. You're right, there are a lot of fun avenues of training.

    But for some reason, Olympic lifting seems to be more about real-world explosive strength than Powerlifting? I dunno, I may be wrong.
    Lifting Journal
    Age: 20, Height: 5'7", Weight: 165, Deadlift: 405, 9.5" Squat: 230 x 10, Bench: 195 (3x5)

    Quote Originally Posted by fatrb38
    I try to visualize that my girlfriend is under the weight and I have to push the weight up to save her. Of course it doesn't work and I just laugh as I think about the weight slowly crushing her bones. Then I remember it's me under the weight and give 200% effort to push it back up.

  5. #4
    eater of food dw06wu's Avatar
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    if you browse power and bulk, definitely lurk hardcore for at least 1-2 months or they will eat you alive
    bests:
    bp 335x1 (unequipped), sq 430x5 belt, dl 475x1 sumo (unequipped)
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    Abs or bust: my journal
    ollld pics

  6. #5
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Also, there is a significant difference between training for powerlifting or olympic lifting and using the power and olympic lifts for training.

    The journal / I live here.

    If I were to start from scratch as a young 13 year old again, I would do every press, squat, and perhaps deadlifts, for my entire career with chains. -- Dan John

  7. #6
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    For beginning and intermediate lifters, cleans are an excellent substitute for deadlifts. If you can clean 300lbs +, your going to have an extremely strong back and posterior chain. Same if you can deadlift 500lbs +.
    Squat...Eat...Sleep...Grow...Repeat

  8. #7
    eek... it's lil' Fixation! fixationdarknes's Avatar
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    dw06wu- Huh? Wait, who's eating me alive?

    Mix- Oh, yes, I should've clarified, I'm not training to be an Olympic or Power Lifter, but just want to use the Olympic and Power Lifts in my training routine to develop explosiveness, speed, and strength. How should I go about doing this?

    Meat Head- Yeah I've heard that Cleans are awesome. I wanna do them.
    Lifting Journal
    Age: 20, Height: 5'7", Weight: 165, Deadlift: 405, 9.5" Squat: 230 x 10, Bench: 195 (3x5)

    Quote Originally Posted by fatrb38
    I try to visualize that my girlfriend is under the weight and I have to push the weight up to save her. Of course it doesn't work and I just laugh as I think about the weight slowly crushing her bones. Then I remember it's me under the weight and give 200% effort to push it back up.

  9. #8
    Welcome To Jamrock!!!! bIgHwN86's Avatar
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    fix, the article in my sig is a good place to start...i made real good gains on it, and plus once you get the load/set parameters geared to where you want them for your goals, you'll blow up.

  10. #9
    eek... it's lil' Fixation! fixationdarknes's Avatar
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    Also, one thing I've noticed is that Oly lifters don't always just train with a certain lift for some sets for reps.

    For example, there is something called "The Drill" with the Snatch. It's where you do: "One Power Snatch followed by one Overhead Squat…then, lower the bar to below the knees for one Hang Squat Snatch…then, lower the bar to where it just skims for the floor for one Full Squat Snatch."

    And I know there is something similar with Cleans. For example: Power Clean the bar. Then do a front squat. Then jerk the bar once or twice. Drop bar to hang position. Lower bar and do a full clean and jerk.

    Something like that. So, do Oly lifters train with weird little sets/drills like those or do they just do 5-10 normal sets of low rep (1-2 reps) work?
    Lifting Journal
    Age: 20, Height: 5'7", Weight: 165, Deadlift: 405, 9.5" Squat: 230 x 10, Bench: 195 (3x5)

    Quote Originally Posted by fatrb38
    I try to visualize that my girlfriend is under the weight and I have to push the weight up to save her. Of course it doesn't work and I just laugh as I think about the weight slowly crushing her bones. Then I remember it's me under the weight and give 200% effort to push it back up.

  11. #10
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixationdarknes
    Also, one thing I've noticed is that Oly lifters don't always just train with a certain lift for some sets for reps.

    For example, there is something called "The Drill" with the Snatch. It's where you do: "One Power Snatch followed by one Overhead Squat…then, lower the bar to below the knees for one Hang Squat Snatch…then, lower the bar to where it just skims for the floor for one Full Squat Snatch."

    And I know there is something similar with Cleans. For example: Power Clean the bar. Then do a front squat. Then jerk the bar once or twice. Drop bar to hang position. Lower bar and do a full clean and jerk.

    Something like that. So, do Oly lifters train with weird little sets/drills like those or do they just do 5-10 normal sets of low rep (1-2 reps) work?
    One could talk for days about the various methods used in different countries - search around for that info, its easy to find.
    Squat...Eat...Sleep...Grow...Repeat

  12. #11
    eek... it's lil' Fixation! fixationdarknes's Avatar
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    I have found various info, but I don't know which is best to do, so that's why I'm asking.
    Lifting Journal
    Age: 20, Height: 5'7", Weight: 165, Deadlift: 405, 9.5" Squat: 230 x 10, Bench: 195 (3x5)

    Quote Originally Posted by fatrb38
    I try to visualize that my girlfriend is under the weight and I have to push the weight up to save her. Of course it doesn't work and I just laugh as I think about the weight slowly crushing her bones. Then I remember it's me under the weight and give 200% effort to push it back up.

  13. #12
    SFW! drew's Avatar
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    Fix, you really need to set some solid goals for yourself, then get focused on what it is you're going to do about it. You're always too concerned with doing everything, you lose focus that way. My best advice to you is to take a step back, and get focused on one method of strength development at a time. If it doesn't work (after 4-6 months) then try something new.

    Stats: Age: 34 Weight: 205 Height: 5'6"
    Gym PRs: Squat:635 Bench:560 Deadlift:495
    Meet PRs: Squat:575 Bench:520 Deadlift:510 Total: 1605@220

  14. #13
    Wannabebig Member
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    hi, to the thread starter
    i am currently doing a mix of powerlifting and olympic lifting, basically i just want to get strong and explosive
    im doing deadlifts, bench press, cleans, clean and jerks, clean to front squats
    and also some variations of deadlifts. i have a new thread in this forum if u want to see my routine
    im still working on it and adding other exercises to it, i thought maybe it would interest u as i am only doing powerlifting and olympic lifts

  15. #14
    eek... it's lil' Fixation! fixationdarknes's Avatar
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    Thanks I'll take a look at it. But after thinking qabout it for a while, I'm actually more in the situation of learning how to snatch and clean properly before forming a routine around it. Heh. I'll come back when I learn a few more things.
    Lifting Journal
    Age: 20, Height: 5'7", Weight: 165, Deadlift: 405, 9.5" Squat: 230 x 10, Bench: 195 (3x5)

    Quote Originally Posted by fatrb38
    I try to visualize that my girlfriend is under the weight and I have to push the weight up to save her. Of course it doesn't work and I just laugh as I think about the weight slowly crushing her bones. Then I remember it's me under the weight and give 200% effort to push it back up.

  16. #15
    Wannabebig Member
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    snatch and clean are the best exercises for explosive strength in my opinion as far as exercises with any sort of weight. (in my opinion)

  17. #16
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    i am currently training for pl'ing but i incoprorate power cleans and since seeing that video you mentioned im thinking about trying to bring in some snatches.

    i lift on the second story of a house so it might be dangerous to do full up snatches (for the floor if i miss the lift off the back) i think i could probably do hang snatches in my power rack. sound like a good idea?
    Last edited by jack_of_all; 10-28-2005 at 04:03 PM.

  18. #17
    Senior Member khari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack_of_all
    i am currently training for pl'ing but i incoprorate power cleans and since seeing that video you mentioned im thinking about trying to bring in some snatches.

    i lift on the second story of a house so it might be dangerous to do full up snatches (for the floor if i miss the lift off the back) i think i could probably do hang snatches in my power rack. sound like a good idea?
    I'd say stick with the power snatch if you've never done either and don't have a coach. Also, I don't think it's very likely you miss a lift off the back. Usually it'll be because you didn't pull it high enough, but as long as you don't max out the worst that should happen is you press it up at the top. Not the end of the world while training, but it'll get you the red flag in competition.

  19. #18
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    From a t-nation thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alwyn Cosgrove
    I used to teach a top down approach (that is I taught overhead squats, muscle snatches, power snatch and hang snatch in that order before doing full snatches.

    Over the past year howver I have ebeen experimenting with using primarily jump shrugs, and pull variations INSTEAD of the full lifts.

    The technical problems in my opinion all come with the catch phase. But the benefits for athletes all come from the pull. I saw some research from Eric Burkhardt showing that the landing forces (the thing that everyone points out as the reason for doing the full lift) are actually less in an Olympic lift than in an unloaded vertical jump.

    So I began experimenting with having some athletes only perform the jump shrug or pull portion (the rest of their programs are similar). So far I think they get all the benefits of the lift, are competent quicker and are handling decent loads a lot faster.

    AC
    www.alwyncosgrove.com

    The journal / I live here.

    If I were to start from scratch as a young 13 year old again, I would do every press, squat, and perhaps deadlifts, for my entire career with chains. -- Dan John

  20. #19
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    AC is such a badass, I just wished he looked like he practices what he preaches...

    So is there really no point in 'catching' the bar, aside from competitive olympic lifting form?
    Squat...Eat...Sleep...Grow...Repeat

  21. #20
    HomeYield WillKuenzel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
    AC is such a badass, I just wished he looked like he practices what he preaches...

    So is there really no point in 'catching' the bar, aside from competitive olympic lifting form?
    AC is a cancer survivor. You won't see many of them that still look that good. One of those cases where you shouldn't judge a book by its cover. IMO, his accomplishments far outweigh his current looks.

    From what, I've read and seen, catching the bar isn't essential if you are just doing the lift for the explosiveness. One of the few drawbacks being that if you do release the weight, you'll need bumper plates and lifting platform to keep from damaging the floor. If you don't release the weight and try to hang on, you run the risk of injuring your shoulders as the weight jerks you back down.
    What is elite?
    "Those who work the hardest often complain the least." -anonymous
    Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.

  22. #21
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomeYield
    AC is a cancer survivor. You won't see many of them that still look that good. One of those cases where you shouldn't judge a book by its cover. IMO, his accomplishments far outweigh his current looks.

    From what, I've read and seen, catching the bar isn't essential if you are just doing the lift for the explosiveness. One of the few drawbacks being that if you do release the weight, you'll need bumper plates and lifting platform to keep from damaging the floor. If you don't release the weight and try to hang on, you run the risk of injuring your shoulders as the weight jerks you back down.
    I had no idea he was a cancer survivor, but regardless I have tons of respect for him. He's a genius as far as training methodology goes.
    Squat...Eat...Sleep...Grow...Repeat

  23. #22
    HomeYield WillKuenzel's Avatar
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    He doesn't mention it on his website but he mentions it briefly in an article I've read. Stage IV cancer survivor, I think. Just thought, I'd toss that out there.

    Again, back the question about racking the weight. The pull portion of the lift is the most important for crossover strength. The rack is actually just pulling yourself under the bar and then front squatting, or OH squatting when doing the snatch.
    What is elite?
    "Those who work the hardest often complain the least." -anonymous
    Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.

  24. #23
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
    I had no idea he was a cancer survivor, but regardless I have tons of respect for him. He's a genius as far as training methodology goes.
    Um, there's that whole international martial arts champion thing too. He doesn't train for looks, but performance, and he has personally demonstrated elite levels of fitness.

    The journal / I live here.

    If I were to start from scratch as a young 13 year old again, I would do every press, squat, and perhaps deadlifts, for my entire career with chains. -- Dan John

  25. #24
    Senior Member Nongan's Avatar
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    to help you out, I'm currently doing a routine at school that combines some power/olympic lifts. We do squats, bench, deadlift, cleans, and then split press (basically, the second part of the clean and jerk, take the weight from your chest and press it up with a drop step), and then once every four weeks, substitute in clean & jerks for cleans and split press.
    Age: 18
    Height: 6'
    Weight: 175
    BF: 12%
    Bench: 175
    Squat: 225
    Deadlift: soon...
    Time Lifting: 2 yrs.
    Started as a skinny 95 pound wimp.

  26. #25
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash
    Um, there's that whole international martial arts champion thing too. He doesn't train for looks, but performance, and he has personally demonstrated elite levels of fitness.
    I DID know about that. Still, hypertrophy(at least a little) wouldn't hurt performance, it'd probably help. More and more martial arts competitors(including champions) are coming in more ripped and hypertrophied every year.
    Squat...Eat...Sleep...Grow...Repeat

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