The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
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    Cycling fast bulks and fast cuts

    Lets say I bulk for a month and put on ~8 lbs. Thats 2 lbs / week, so I've clearly put on some fat. So the next 4 weeks I cut and lose ~4 lbs, for a net gain of ~4 lbs.
    Realisticly, how much of that would be fat? Is there any benefits to doing this versus "I'm bulking until I hit x lbs"? Or I'm cutting until I hit x% bf? Or would I only be gaining and losing water weight?

    I like to switch things up and I thought this might be a different approach. Thoughts?

    BTW I tried searching for something on this, but I didn't find anything.

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  3. #2
    C.S.C.S. ddegroff's Avatar
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    I feel that switchin it up that quick is not that effective. I have however never tried it. I would say your better off bulking to x lbs or when your fed up with you fatness, then cut till your happy again or x lbs.
    Last edited by ddegroff; 05-30-2006 at 10:20 PM.
    Make Shift IF diet
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    I've set it back - you might need to reboot, though..." -Built

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  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSpikeyThing
    Lets say I bulk for a month and put on ~8 lbs. Thats 2 lbs / week, so I've clearly put on some fat. So the next 4 weeks I cut and lose ~4 lbs, for a net gain of ~4 lbs.
    I think this is a fabulous idea. I plan on trying in soon.


    Quote Originally Posted by RedSpikeyThing
    Realisticly, how much of that would be fat?
    Could be easily 90-100%.



    Quote Originally Posted by RedSpikeyThing
    Is there any benefits to doing this versus "I'm bulking until I hit x lbs"? Or I'm cutting until I hit x% bf?
    There are 3 tremendous benefits.

    1) Cutting slows your metabolism. Cutting for 4 weeks barely budges it.

    2) You get your best gains bulking in the first month. After that you gain more fat percentage wise.

    3) Another tremendous benefit is the periodization that you unintentionally impose. You train heavy for 4 weeks (bulking) and then train for maintenance (cutting).

    The cutting allows neurological recovery making it possible to hit the bulk harder and heavier. Then you give your joints a rest while cutting.


    Quote Originally Posted by RedSpikeyThing
    Or would I only be gaining and losing water weight?
    Absolutely not. The scale will shift very quicky at the end of each month but the net gains will be there.

    Last edited by Holto; 05-31-2006 at 10:43 AM.

  5. #4
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    Start a journal if you do this. I think this is the future. That and targeted bulks.

    In the 70's,80's and early 90's there was only 1 kind of bulk. The kitchen sink bulk. Bodbuilders gained an enormous amount of weight to follow with a long cut.

    In the early 90's people started to learn about the principle of enery balance. Realizing there is a finite limit to the LBM you can gain. There is no point in eating beyond that. The solution was the clean bulk, where you actually count calories to produce a very specific result. LBM added with minimal fat.

    Cutting is no fun. Bulk to gain some lean mass fast and then cut so it's a net positive. I like it.

    Last edited by Holto; 05-31-2006 at 10:34 AM.

  6. #5
    Senior Member TheGimp's Avatar
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    Holto inspired me to do something along these lines. Basically the plan was to bulk for 6 weeks, then cut for 2. I've just done that and the results were thus:

    Starting weight: 134.0 lbs
    End of bulk weight: 139.0 lbs
    End of cut weight: 138.4 lbs

    Starting waist: 28 inches
    End of bulk waist: 29.5 inches
    End of cut waist: 28.5 inches

    No strength loss from the cut.

    I'd have been ecstatic if the net waist gain was 0 but as it is I feel that tacking on a mere 2 weeks of cutting meant virtually all of that 4.4 lbs I gained is LBM and I'm primed for another 6 weeks of bulking.

    Things I might do differently... well I don't think I ate enough during my bulk, and I used UD2.0 for the cut, think I'm gonna replace it with a PSMF next time as I can't stand the carb loading any more. Plus it might be beneficial to tweak how many weeks I spend on both; perhaps 5/2 or 6/3.

  7. #6
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    holto/OP this is also something ive been sort of debating about trying after ive finished maintaining thro pct i may try this with 6-8 week bulks to 3-4 week cuts. we shall see
    my journal
    http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=68545

    weight 202 - (bf around 14%)
    PR's
    Bench - 286
    deadlift - new pr on the 23/12/06 190 kilo (430 pound)
    squat - 264 ATF

    Goals

    200 pound at 10% bf by next summer

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holto
    Could be easily 90-100%.
    That doesn't sounds like a good thing at all! Is that a typo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Holto
    Cutting slows your metabolism. Cutting for 4 weeks barely budges it.
    So this means you get to eat more on a cut, right?

    Should the bulk and cut lengths be the same?

    The more I start thinking about this, the more I'm liking it.

  9. #8
    Banned KingJustin's Avatar
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    The bulk and cut lengths don't have to be the same.

    I've been heavily considering something like this as well. I think I'm going to try a body recomposition where I essentially bulk for 1 day and then cut the very next and repeat, but if that doesn't seem to be working then I think this is probably what I'll end up doing.

  10. #9
    Just watch me ... Built's Avatar
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    There are a couple of points I feel the need to bring up here. They may be unsubstantiated, but I'd like to at least discuss them:

    1. Rebound fat gain after a cut totally blows.
    2. I seem to make the best muscle gains when my bodyfat goes over a certain threshold. Not TOO fat, but not uber-lean either.

    Discuss.

  11. #10
    Senior Member TheGimp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Built
    2. I seem to make the best muscle gains when my bodyfat goes over a certain threshold. Not TOO fat, but not uber-lean either.
    Lyle McD. postulates that the leaner one is when starting a bulk, the more favourable their ratio of muscle to fat gained is, up to a certain point. Beyond this the body is primed to store fat. I believe he recommends starting at around 12% BF (this is for men obv). For me that's a pretty big factor in my decision to give these shorter cycles a whirl.

  12. #11
    Just watch me ... Built's Avatar
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    Lyle argued that this is true for people who are naturally lean, not dieted down. Berardi argued that the leaner you go into a bulk, the better you'll partition.

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Built
    1. Rebound fat gain after a cut totally blows.
    I'm assuming that means the first few pounds you put on after a cut are fat?

    Also, would the amount of fat you put on vary depending on how long the cut was? If you're only in a caloric deficit for a few weeks versus a few months, would you put on less "rebound fat"?

  14. #13
    Senior Member TheGimp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Built
    Lyle argued that this is true for people who are naturally lean, not dieted down.
    We're talking about this article right?

    The example he cites of people dieting down and then gaining an unfavourable amount of muscle:fat is where they reached 4 or 5% BF. That's why he recommends dieting down to 10 - 12% first, lean enough to avoid what he hypothesises is a
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyle McDonald
    development of systemic insulin resistance which causes calories to go into fat stores more readily
    at body fat levels of around 15% or higher while not so lean that the body is desperate to store fat.

  15. #14
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    Would it be a good idea to put a week or two of maintenance between bulks and cuts?
    This would be a good way to recalculate your maintenance cals after each cycle. My only conern would be that adding this week in would make the entire process just take longer. Thoughts?

  16. #15
    C.S.C.S. ddegroff's Avatar
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    Yes, it would add time to the entire process. BUT I think it would be a good idea to do that inbetween the bulk/cut cycle. Dropping cals by too much can be difficult to maintain and same goes for raising cals too quickly.

    <i've changed my mind on this subject since my first post>
    Last edited by ddegroff; 06-01-2006 at 08:49 AM.
    Make Shift IF diet
    My Training Experience
    GET BODY SMART
    Goals:
    CF WOD and Recomp...
    "My fault. I was fiddling with the Gravitational Constant of the Universe again.
    I've set it back - you might need to reboot, though..." -Built

    "Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal--
    nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong attitude" - Thomas J

    "Obsessed is what the lazy call the dedicated" - Slim Schaedle

  17. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddegroff
    Yes, it would add time to the entire process. BUT I think it would be a good idea to do that inbetween the bulk/cut cycle. Dropping cals by too much can be difficult to maintain and same goes for raising cals too quickly.

    <i've changed my mind on this subject since my first post>
    So maybe just do it for a week to help keep your sanity. Also would it reduce the "Rebound fat" that built is talking about?

  18. #17
    260(-62) from 193 from 275
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    Let me try this again.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedSpikeyThing
    Lets say I bulk for a month and put on ~8 lbs. Thats 2 lbs / week, so I've clearly put on some fat. So the next 4 weeks I cut and lose ~4 lbs, for a net gain of ~4 lbs.
    Realisticly, how much of that would be fat?
    Quite possibly 0%.

  19. #18
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    I have never experienced rebound fat gain.

    I have, however, experienced rediculous gains in LBM after cutting.

    To me the *primary mechanism* of rebound fat gain is metabolic suppression.

    In my case I attribute my rebound LBM gains to being neurologically fresher than ever.

    ---------------------------------------------------

    There would be two factors to determine the timeframes of each wave.

    1) Cut until your metabolism drops
    2) Bulk until you are no longer gaining LBM at the rate you were for the first few weeks

    The waves should be long enough that you can clearly measure your progress.

  20. #19
    C.S.C.S. ddegroff's Avatar
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    Red, I think Holto answered your question.
    Make Shift IF diet
    My Training Experience
    GET BODY SMART
    Goals:
    CF WOD and Recomp...
    "My fault. I was fiddling with the Gravitational Constant of the Universe again.
    I've set it back - you might need to reboot, though..." -Built

    "Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal--
    nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong attitude" - Thomas J

    "Obsessed is what the lazy call the dedicated" - Slim Schaedle

  21. #20
    Is cutting down to 9% Jordanbcool's Avatar
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    What an interesting thread. I've always thought about trying something like this instead of always being either super lean or super fat.

    Right now I'm super lean

    I miss my tummmmmy

    -jordan

    On that topic I cant wait too get some pics up. I look pretty ripped now at 185
    Last edited by Jordanbcool; 06-02-2006 at 05:28 AM.
    Getting back in the groove
    "I'll tell you a secret. Something they don't teach you in your temple. The Gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again." - Achilles, (Troy 2004)
    Stats
    ATF squat- 275 RAW
    Deadlift- 415
    Bench- Two 100lbs DB's four times
    190lbs 15% BF (Estimate)

  22. #21
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    What kind of routine do you guys think should be used to accompany the cycling?
    I would train heavy every cut in an attempt to retain as much LBM as possible. It's the bulks I'm a little confused about. Lifting heavy = lots of strength gains, but less hypertrophy. Maybe alternate between strength and hypertrophy training? Or do two bulks for hypertrophy, one for strength?

    Ideas?

  23. #22
    Senior Member Eszekial's Avatar
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    When cutting, 3 working sets of 5 reps.

    When bulking, 5 working sets of 5 reps.

    I would find that ideal.
    Eszekial's Journal
    Age:20
    Height: 6'1
    Weight: 200
    Body Fat: 12%
    Bench: 265x3
    ATFSquat: 315x3
    Dead: 275x3

  24. #23
    Is cutting down to 9% Jordanbcool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSpikeyThing
    What kind of routine do you guys think should be used to accompany the cycling?
    I would train heavy every cut in an attempt to retain as much LBM as possible. It's the bulks I'm a little confused about. Lifting heavy = lots of strength gains, but less hypertrophy. Maybe alternate between strength and hypertrophy training? Or do two bulks for hypertrophy, one for strength?

    Ideas?
    It really shouldnt change a whole lot. Cuts would probably include more strength type training simply because you have less energy and cant do as many sets as you can bulking (thats how it is for me atleast). I usually cut down my auxilaries a little bit (reps.) while cutting.

    On bulks I keep core lifts the same but up the auxilaries too 3x12 or 3x10. Thats how i've always done it for years and its never let me down. Best thing to do is to mix it up on both cuts and bulks.

    While cutting; doing more reps. burns more calories during the actual workout. While bulking it creates better hypertrophy then lower reps. However lower reps. but more weight tends too burn more post workout (this is good on cuts). Also on bulks lower reps. but higher weight usually recruits more muscle simply because you normally do big lifts with them (think deads, squats, bench, cleans etc.) which again gives you some good growth.

    So yea. Basic point is too mix it up on bulks and cuts. And they shouldnt really change a whole lot IMO. Unless your on a PSMF like Im on. In that case I had too cut everything waaay down. Theres benifits both on cuts and bulks for what I discussed.

    -jordan

    P.S. If I'm wrong about anything I just said, simply correct me. I dont think I'm wrong though but I'm trying to be more careful now with my posts. I cant stand when people post wrong info.....and I shouldnt do the same.
    Last edited by Jordanbcool; 06-02-2006 at 02:58 PM.
    Getting back in the groove
    "I'll tell you a secret. Something they don't teach you in your temple. The Gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again." - Achilles, (Troy 2004)
    Stats
    ATF squat- 275 RAW
    Deadlift- 415
    Bench- Two 100lbs DB's four times
    190lbs 15% BF (Estimate)

  25. #24
    Banned KingJustin's Avatar
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    I think that I would aim for my cuts to be higher intensity, but fewer sets.

  26. #25
    Senior Member Eszekial's Avatar
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    Has anybody made a formal split / timing / calendar / diet, for this type of training?

    I'm highly interested in this.
    Eszekial's Journal
    Age:20
    Height: 6'1
    Weight: 200
    Body Fat: 12%
    Bench: 265x3
    ATFSquat: 315x3
    Dead: 275x3

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