The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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Thread: Soreness?

  1. #1
    Super Human kingkrs's Avatar
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    Soreness?

    I just thought I would share this with all of you, since there is alot of new and less experienced trainees on this site. I wish I had access to this kind of information when I started to lift.

    Anyway..
    It is from Charles Poliquin and the full article can be found here.
    http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do...dra?id=1470868

    What Does Soreness Really Mean?

    Q: Do I have to get sore in the gym to be making progress?

    A: For hypertrophy, I'd say yes. Hypertrophy is a biological adaptation to a stressor, and the stressor here is micro-tears in the muscle.

    So I'd agree that this is true, but that's one of the reasons you have to change your training routine every six workouts -- to get that new soreness. But do you need to be sore all the time? No, but you should certainly be sore 48 hours after you initiate a new program. If not, then you probably did a Richard Simmons training routine.

    Now, when an athlete is peaking at the end of his training phase, then he doesn't want to get sore. But when you're trying to build muscle, then yes, you should be sore to some degree after the first two workouts. (You shouldn't however strive to get sore so badly that you'd need an Advil sandwich to get out of bed.) The next four workouts you adapt, and then by the sixth workout you're ready for new soreness from doing something else.

    The rule is, the program is only as good as the time it takes you to adapt to it. The changes in the program don't have to be dramatic. For example, you could do shoulder-width stance back squats for six workouts then go to front squats with the heels elevated and you'll be sore.
    The difference between the freaks and the flock is the ****ing fork!
    You wanna gain weight? Then it's time to squat!

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  3. #2
    WBB's Juggernaut/Liason BigCorey75's Avatar
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    i read that article and i agree wholeheartedly, i swith routines about every 6 weeks, these are the times i need a break and as he says im no longer sore, i take a week off and beging a new routine and the soreness kicks back in again

    i just recently switched routines and im sore all over again, it feels great
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  4. #3
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    Yeah I completely agree with that, a while back at weightlifting for football we used to change routine every two weeks, I could barley ever move my body when I got up the next day. Now I'm rather concerned that my coaches have gone a little off the normal path. We have been lifting just about 16 weeks so far and haven't changed the program around, I haven't felt sore since the first two weeks.

  5. #4
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    You do NOT need to get sore to grow.

    You do NOT need to get sore to get stronger.

    I rarely get sore and I'm pretty sure I'm in better shape than Richard ****ing Simmons.

    And ANY program will work for 6 weeks or less. Jumping from one to another without a clearly defined path or purpose is pointless. In fact, most people can make progress on the exact same routine for a loooooooong ass time.

    I also disagree with his comments on the DB clean & snatch. Using anything other than a barbell is bad? God forbid we learn how to pick up odd objects in the most efficient way possible. And just before that he's saying a smith machine is okay?????

    Bull**** article if you ask me.
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  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    You do NOT need to get sore to grow.

    You do NOT need to get sore to get stronger.

    I rarely get sore and I'm pretty sure I'm in better shape than Richard ****ing Simmons.

    And ANY program will work for 6 weeks or less. Jumping from one to another without a clearly defined path or purpose is pointless. In fact, most people can make progress on the exact same routine for a loooooooong ass time.

    I also disagree with his comments on the DB clean & snatch. Using anything other than a barbell is bad? God forbid we learn how to pick up odd objects in the most efficient way possible. And just before that he's saying a smith machine is okay?????

    Bull**** article if you ask me.

    Agreed Nice post,

    If this article was factual why does my back keep growing without getting sore...

  7. #6
    Super Human kingkrs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    You do NOT need to get sore to grow.

    You do NOT need to get sore to get stronger.

    I rarely get sore and I'm pretty sure I'm in better shape than Richard ****ing Simmons.

    And ANY program will work for 6 weeks or less. Jumping from one to another without a clearly defined path or purpose is pointless. In fact, most people can make progress on the exact same routine for a loooooooong ass time.

    I also disagree with his comments on the DB clean & snatch. Using anything other than a barbell is bad? God forbid we learn how to pick up odd objects in the most efficient way possible. And just before that he's saying a smith machine is okay?????

    Bull**** article if you ask me.

    I am sorry but I think you may want to reread the part about Richard Fing Simmons, he was being sarcastic.

    What he is saying in a nutshell is that to get big soreness is a good indicator that you are going in the right direction. To get STRONGER you do not necessarily need to get sore. Also remember that the six workouts is a general statement for the average population. Some may require changes in the routine more often and others less often.

    Lighten up man, after all he is Canadian and probably the most sucessful strength coach there is. I think the man knows his stuff.
    The difference between the freaks and the flock is the ****ing fork!
    You wanna gain weight? Then it's time to squat!

  8. #7
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingkrs View Post
    Lighten up man, after all he is Canadian and probably the most sucessful strength coach there is. I think the man knows his stuff.
    That's what makes it so surprising.

    Look, there are a lot of big names that would disagree w. that. Soreness is an inevitable side-effect of training, but it isn't something you should equate with progress. Charles Staley had a great article on the Dolfzine site about training side-effects vs. training adaptations - it looks like the site is down, but you would might rethink your position if you read it.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
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  9. #8
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    I think the best I can do is this quote (that I luckily had the foresight to copy and paste into my notes). It's not the whole article - just a couple paragraphs from the article:

    Quote Originally Posted by From Charles Staley's Training Adaptations VS. Training Side Effects

    Although soreness, exhaustion, and various levels of discomfort are often unavoidable side-effects of proper training, they are not the goal of training. Instead, training objectives are based upon quantitative, measurable outcomes: visible improvements in technical proficiency, strategic intelligence, strength, speed, endurance, flexibility, coordination, and so on.

    Of course, over time, many people learn to form an association between effective training and the side-effects of that training. In other words, during the month of November you trained hard and made a lot of progress. During that month, you were frequently sore, your joints ached, and so on. In December, you were on vacation, and didn't train at all. According, your fitness level declined. Before you know it, over years and years, you learn to develop an association.

    That association is deceptive, however. Just because you're experiencing pain from your training doesn't mean your fitness levels are improving. And conversely, effective training doesn't always hurt.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
    Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
    Blog: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingkrs View Post
    (1) What he is saying in a nutshell is that to get big soreness is a good indicator that you are going in the right direction. To get STRONGER you do not necessarily need to get sore. Also remember that the six workouts is a general statement for the average population. Some may require changes in the routine more often and others less often.

    (2) Lighten up man, after all he is Canadian and probably the most sucessful strength coach there is. I think the man knows his stuff.
    1. No. Soreness means nothing except that you are sore. If you had soreness in your joints (to give an example) do you think THAT would mean that you are "going in the right direction"? Another example that I often use is this. If someone were to hit you with a baseball bat repeatedly you would be very sore...but you would not grow. You can gain size and strength without being sore. You can gain size and strength while being sore. But soreness is not a indicator of gains...simply an occasional byproduct of training. I rarely get sore when I train, yet I went from 135 to 210 lbs.

    2. Stuart McRobert's opinion on experts "Stupidities are often babbled by PhD's...." (or something very close to that). Simply because someone is successful in his chosen field does not mean that he necessarily knows what he is doing.. People can become successful in spite of their beliefs and training techniques. Look at Ronnie Coleman who is generally acknowledged as a nice guy...but "not the quickest tractor on the farm." And I doubt Jay Cutler does quantum mechanics for fun.
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 02-28-2007 at 07:29 PM.

  11. #10
    Super Human kingkrs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Songsangnim View Post
    1. No. Soreness means nothing except that you are sore. If you had soreness in your joints (to give an example) do you think THAT would mean that you are "going in the right direction"? Another example that I often use is this. If someone were to hit you with a baseball bat repeatedly you would be very sore...but you would not grow. You can gain size and strength without being sore. You can gain size and strength while being sore. But soreness is not a indicator of gains...simply an occasional byproduct of training. I rarely get sore when I train, yet I went from 135 to 210 lbs.

    2. Stuart McRobert's opinion on experts "Stupidities are often babbled by PhD's...." (or something very close to that). Simply because someone is successful in his chosen field means nothing. People can become successful in spite of their beliefs and training techniques. Look at Ronnie Coleman who is generally acknowledged as a nice guy...but "not the quickest tractor on the farm." And I doubt Jay Cutler does quantum physics for fun.
    sorry but your analogies of baseball bats and joint soreness has nothing to do with DOMS and weight training soreness or the supercomensation that comes after a bout of DOMS.

    Other wise on point #2 I agree.
    The difference between the freaks and the flock is the ****ing fork!
    You wanna gain weight? Then it's time to squat!

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingkrs View Post
    sorry but your analogies of baseball bats and joint soreness has nothing to do with DOMS and weight training soreness or the supercomensation that comes after a bout of DOMS.

    Other wise on point #2 I agree.

    How does muscle soreness differ from being hit with a baseball bat vs after doing heavy deadlifts?

    In both cases the muscle is sore. So what is the difference?

  13. #12
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingkrs View Post
    sorry but your analogies of baseball bats and joint soreness has nothing to do with DOMS and weight training soreness or the supercomensation that comes after a bout of DOMS.
    Dude, supercompensation does not occur because you worked until you were sore...
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
    Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
    Blog: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    Dude, supercompensation does not occur because you worked until you were sore...

    Can't believe I missed that part of his post.

    Mr. kingkrs, supercompensation occurs from adequate rest and nutrition...NOT from DOMS...where are you getting this stuff from?

  15. #14
    Super Human kingkrs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Songsangnim View Post
    How does muscle soreness differ from being hit with a baseball bat vs after doing heavy deadlifts?

    In both cases the muscle is sore. So what is the difference?
    Oh my god.... Please tell me you are kidding. I know that this site is not filled with idiots here, but this is getting rediculous!

    Getting hit with a baseball bat lets say in the thigh would cause a different kind of trauma to the muscle. Like blunt force trauma. A bruise to the muscle.

    I don't know about you but when I deadlift heavy and am sore the day after it feels nothing like getting hit with a bat.



    Sensei.

    Supercompensation is something that your body does usually after being sore to make sure that the next time it (your body ) encounters the same kind of stress it is able to handle it better. I did not say " because you worked until you were sore"
    The difference between the freaks and the flock is the ****ing fork!
    You wanna gain weight? Then it's time to squat!

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingkrs View Post
    Oh my god.... Please tell me you are kidding. I know that this site is not filled with idiots here, but this is getting rediculous!

    (1) Getting hit with a baseball bat lets say in the thigh would cause a different kind of trauma to the muscle. Like blunt force trauma. A bruise to the muscle.

    I don't know about you but when I deadlift heavy and am sore the day after it feels nothing like getting hit with a bat.



    Sensei.

    (2) Supercompensation is something that your body does usually after being sore to make sure that the next time it (your body ) encounters the same kind of stress it is able to handle it better. I did not say " because you worked until you were sore"
    (numbers are mine)

    1. How does the muscle distinguish between the these different "traumas"? Obviously I was not talking hard enough to cause serious damage, simply hard enough to feel sore the day after.

    But if you don't like that example simply substitute another activity like playing sports. If you play sports (say football) once every two weeks...you will likely be sore every time you play...yet you will not grow.


    2. Supercompensation is NOT something the body just does. Training provides the stimulus for it to do so..but supercompensation only actually takes place once rest and nutrition in adequate amounts have been provided. Those are not factors that take place automatically, you have to provide them.


    Once and for all, soreness is not necessary for growth. This has been done to death in numberous threads before. Many people have grown without soreness (including myself) so obviously you do not need soreness to grow. It then follows that soreness does not necessarily mean you are on the right track. Remember it's not training that makes you gain size...it's diet. If you are not eating enough, it doesn't matter how hard you train or how sore you are, you will not grow.

    Training and soreness are CATABOLIC. Rest and diet are ANABOLIC. Catabolic tears the body down. Anabolic repairs it. Training provides the stimulus for growth, that is true. But without diet and rest this stimulus becomes catabolic...and it doesn't matter how sore you are.
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 02-28-2007 at 08:19 PM.

  17. #16
    Super Human kingkrs's Avatar
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    You know this is re-tard-ed. There is alot of grey area within the article, but you have to read what is being said again and read between the lines. He says:
    "then yes, you should be sore to some degree after the first two workouts. (You shouldn't however strive to get sore so badly that you'd need an Advil sandwich to get out of bed.) The next four workouts you adapt, and then by the sixth workout you're ready for new soreness from doing something else."

    notice he says "next four workouts you adapt" He says "adapt" not get sore.

    Now I don't want everyone here to get all "sore" over this thread haha. But I do think that the original post needs to be re read carefully, and try to see that what he is saying is not the be all end all discussion on soreness. I guarantee you if I, you, or anyone here were to talk to Charles he would be able to elaborate further on this and really "break it down" for us. No pun intended ha ha again

    I agree that being sore all the time is not good. Every time I go to lift I do not get sore. Only if I do an exercise that I have not done in a while. Or make the subtle changes in a program like Charles suggests. IE barbell to dumbells. I fall into the 6 workout window that he talks about mainly for upper body exercises. I can get away with alot longer program for the lower body. For example when I do 5x5 on the bench I get sore the first workout. My body compensates for the stress and adapts. The next time I do the 5x5 I am sore, but to a lesser degree. The third and fourth workouts I am usually not sore. At the same time my numbers start to stagnate (amount of weight lifted and reps) That is when I make a change. That is when the soreness comes in, after the change. It is a loop. round and round.

    King K R S
    Last edited by kingkrs; 02-28-2007 at 09:03 PM.
    The difference between the freaks and the flock is the ****ing fork!
    You wanna gain weight? Then it's time to squat!

  18. #17
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    Ever hear of Lactic Acid?
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

  19. #18
    Cross trainer & DL addict mikesbytes's Avatar
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    I use to suffer soreness in specific muscles, in particular the pecs. In those days, I didn't understand the importance of diet and now I ponder the thought that if my diet had been better, that the soreness would have been less with a quicker recovery.

  20. #19
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingkrs View Post
    Sensei.

    Supercompensation is something that your body does usually after being sore to make sure that the next time it (your body ) encounters the same kind of stress it is able to handle it better. I did not say " because you worked until you were sore"
    The part in bold is unsubstantiated. That's what we're arguing w. you about. DOMS is a really bad way to gauge the success or failure or workload or adaptation or really just about anything unless you have nothing else to base your training off of and even then it's not the best.

    The reason that people are "jumping down your throat" is that most of us don't like the idea of recommending relative newbies to train seeking pain - we'd much rather see newbies working on improving technique, improving strength levels, etc. and seeing those outcomes reflected back at them in the mirror. I know you weren't recommending against those things, but trust me, a newbie will take something that sounds logical and run with it without seeing all points of view.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
    Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
    Blog: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

  21. #20
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesbytes View Post
    I use to suffer soreness in specific muscles, in particular the pecs. In those days, I didn't understand the importance of diet and now I ponder the thought that if my diet had been better, that the soreness would have been less with a quicker recovery.
    Yes,

    Restoring phosphate groups through nutrition helps quite a bit to relieve DOMS.
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

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