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Thread: I Love Me Some TNation (or, read up new folks).

  1. #26
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    Lol I can relate to this article...I think?

    Monday, which is "heavy" bench press day, which I can easily train to failure because my heart rate does not go up so much when I bench press. I reach failure before my heart starts going like 180 bpm.

    Wednesday is when I do deadlifts, I just do it...don't think about it much.

    However, on Saturday, which is squats, I can do a warmup set and I can feel a big difference in my heart rate already. Then I tend to give up and slack off during working sets because I just can't stand having my heart beating real fast.

    Friday is the easiest of them all, all I do is "heavy" tricep work. Focusing on Close grip benching.

    But some sessions, I have the days where I can just dish out the pain from squats and push an extra few reps...or days when I just feel like sleeping on the flat bench.
    5'7 425 lbs. 85% bodyfat Need to gain 20-40 lbs.

    New journal - http://wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=86957 Boring I know, but whatever.

  2. #27
    Om. Avocado. MM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash
    A wise man once said, "Do not delve into minutae without reading the article title."

    This is an article about some basic principles that are shared by a lot of diet programs. Again, you're freaking out about an article that has some basic information on dieting, for a BEGINNER, in GENERAL.

    It is plainly ridiculous to think that those principles apply exactly to someone who has trained and dieted for a year or two, let alone someone like Chase.
    Amen.
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  3. #28
    Om. Avocado. MM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris mason
    If he is training and only having 1 good workout out of 5 he is not training properly. He is training too intensely and thus overworking himself.

    Chris
    He doesn't say he only has one good workout, he says he has only one "great" workout:
    In a group of five workouts, I tend to have one great workout: the kind of workout that makes me think that in just a few weeks I could be an Olympic champion and Mr. Olympia.
    Don't hate the player. Hate the game.


  4. #29
    Senior Member Canadian Crippler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixmasterNash
    A wise man once said, "Do not delve into minutae without reading the article title."

    This is an article about some basic principles that are shared by a lot of diet programs. Again, you're freaking out about an article that has some basic information on dieting, for a BEGINNER, in GENERAL.

    It is plainly ridiculous to think that those principles apply exactly to someone who has trained and dieted for a year or two, let alone someone like Chase.
    The article, in GENERAL, for a BEGINNER, has crappy principles that do not need to be followed even remotely closely to make great gains independant of one's goal. You're going to go grab a beginner, a hardgainer, who's throwing down 400g carbs a day to gain weight, and tell him 90% of it has to be from fruit? Hahaha...

    And this was just the first article I clicked from Meat_Head's post. If you like, I'll find you half a dozen more which suck equally as bad JUST from that post

    (I won't actually because I don't give a crap too, but go read them yourself and you'll see what I mean).



    Ok, just thought I'd post this again for laughs
    http://www.f-heit.com/
    Hahaha, yeah... T-nation r00lz!!!!1
    Last edited by Canadian Crippler; 06-25-2006 at 07:16 PM.
    "I added some db curls with the pink weights for a bit of a burn." - Rookiebldr

    "im assuming the holy (big) 3 are: curls, bench, legs?" - Saggas

    "had a huge ass burn on my triceps while I was doing those kickbacks, so they'll likely be staying with my exercise program." - Zearoth

    "most of my burned calories coming from something called Basal. Wtf does a leaf have to do with any of it?" - Votorx

    "We have a lot of people like that on our campus, all hippies and things, that go around preaching against corporations, jocks, preps, accountants, and anyone else that feels the need to shower more than occasionally." - Shankerr

    "Damn man why are some women just so demonic and evil.. its like you wanna get a stake and mallet and an erection at the same time." - WBBIRL

  5. #30
    Senior Member smalls's Avatar
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    I agree with pretty much everything CC has stated in the thread.

    The problem is you cant write articles that just talk about the basic principles and how to apply them, they would be boring and short. So instead you write things like X and Y are the BEST way to add inches of muscle to your thighs while losing a keg of fat. And here is what everyone should eat to become a mountain of mass.
    Diet is key, the calorie is king

    "Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be."
    --Abraham Lincoln

    "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
    Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination
    alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'press on' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
    Calvin Coolidge (1872-1933)
    30th U.S. President

    "If you want to look abnormal you have to eat abnormal,lol."--ST

  6. #31
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalls
    I agree with pretty much everything CC has stated in the thread.

    The problem is you cant write articles that just talk about the basic principles and how to apply them, they would be boring and short. So instead you write things like X and Y are the BEST way to add inches of muscle to your thighs while losing a keg of fat. And here is what everyone should eat to become a mountain of mass.
    How many t-nation articles have you read? I haven't seen any like the 'Flex' and 'Musclemag' routines and articles you say they have. In fact, all of the writers on that site are quick to say that the tecnique or workout they are presenting is one of MANY that will work.

    Of course there's gonna be a few bad ones, but the wealth of solid training, diet, etc. information on that site allows the open minded to look beyond protein ads and whatnot...

    CC, I would love to see you attempt to pick apart another one of those articles seeing as how you failed miserably with some great diet advice. Do you know who you are calling out when you bunch the t-nation guys together as wrong like you did? Its not just Waterbury, Shugart, DJ, or the other few guys who's articles you've read there(who are all accomplished in their specific field)... its Thibeadeau, Poliquin, Ian King, Dave Tate, Eric Cressey, John Barardi, Mike Robertson, David Barr, and many more. No offense man, but you don't have anything on those guys... neither does anyone else here.
    Squat...Eat...Sleep...Grow...Repeat

  7. #32
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Pffft. What does Dave Tate know? He's a sissy bodybuilder now.

    The journal / I live here.

    If I were to start from scratch as a young 13 year old again, I would do every press, squat, and perhaps deadlifts, for my entire career with chains. -- Dan John

  8. #33
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Although I don't like T-Nation's general penchant for hyperbole, gratuitous smut, and self-praise, it does have some of the best in the business and, like Mix said, it is free.

    To be honest, I've read maybe 1-5% of all the articles on their site - some were among the best articles I've EVER read. Others were among the worst.

    I've never tried any of their supplements, but I have a friend (whom I consider to be very knowledgeable) who swears by them.

    They did actually print one magazine that was in the stands for a while... I bought it and was extremely disappointed with what reminded me of a Hugh Hefner meets Dan Duchaine version of Flex magazine.... The only articles I actually remember from it (I gave it away so I can't reread it) are one about T-Mag test boosters and prostitution-tours in Thailand! (yes, I'm totally serious)...
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
    Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
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  9. #34
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei
    The only articles I actually remember from it (I gave it away so I can't reread it) are one about T-Mag test boosters and prostitution-tours in Thailand! (yes, I'm totally serious)...
    In all seriousness, the series of online articles about training, gear, and, um, friendly ladies in Thailand are really interesting!!!

    A lot of pro's and wannabes head there for the nice weather, cheap food, cheap hookers, and cheap steroids.

    The journal / I live here.

    If I were to start from scratch as a young 13 year old again, I would do every press, squat, and perhaps deadlifts, for my entire career with chains. -- Dan John

  10. #35
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Just not my thing I guess...
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
    Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
    Blog: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

  11. #36
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian Crippler
    The article, in GENERAL, for a BEGINNER, has crappy principles that do not need to be followed even remotely closely to make great gains independant of one's goal.
    When you grow up and get a better understanding of the big picture, you'll realize why the advice was solid.
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  12. #37
    Om. Avocado. MM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
    Its not just Waterbury, Shugart, DJ, or the other few guys who's articles you've read there(who are all accomplished in their specific field)... its Thibeadeau, Poliquin, Ian King, Dave Tate, Eric Cressey, John Barardi, Mike Robertson, David Barr, and many more. No offense man, but you don't have anything on those guys... neither does anyone else here.
    Qoute for truth.

    It's silly to look at some bad examples and extrapolate that the whole darn thing is terrible; indeed, we sort of like to call that a logical fallacy. It'd be like taking a few bad apples from WBB and saying that the whole site is terrible. Sure, TN has had some articles about schoolgirls, girlscouts, and posted one of the most terrible arm routines I've ever seen. So what? They've also posted some great training articles, some of the best I've ever read. You should be mature enough to sift through the crap and appreciate quality when you come across it.
    Don't hate the player. Hate the game.


  13. #38
    Senior Member Canadian Crippler's Avatar
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    Ok, you're all right. T-Nation is the greatest site of all time. Great articles such as those stating you must have 600g of carbs from fruit, one recommending hang cleans off a block in a beginner program, and others recommending DB Flies and Overhead Cable Curls in a 5x5 program. Not to mention that program on specializing for delts, the one with something like 25-30 sets in one day done twice a week? Nice nice.

    I'm not going to waste more time on this. Ever since I've stopped trying all this "escalating density specialization V2" stuff that's all over Tnation I've made better gains than ever without caring close to as much (and guess what? I didn't even use Biotest products! OMG!!!)

    If you really still think T-nation is reputable, head over to Lyle's forum and ask the dudes there, who know A LOT more about training and diet than probably everyone who posted in this thread.
    Last edited by Canadian Crippler; 06-26-2006 at 08:14 AM.
    "I added some db curls with the pink weights for a bit of a burn." - Rookiebldr

    "im assuming the holy (big) 3 are: curls, bench, legs?" - Saggas

    "had a huge ass burn on my triceps while I was doing those kickbacks, so they'll likely be staying with my exercise program." - Zearoth

    "most of my burned calories coming from something called Basal. Wtf does a leaf have to do with any of it?" - Votorx

    "We have a lot of people like that on our campus, all hippies and things, that go around preaching against corporations, jocks, preps, accountants, and anyone else that feels the need to shower more than occasionally." - Shankerr

    "Damn man why are some women just so demonic and evil.. its like you wanna get a stake and mallet and an erection at the same time." - WBBIRL

  14. #39
    Senior Member accuFLEX's Avatar
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    On a side note....I like Shugart's Hammer

  15. #40
    Go Heels! MixmasterNash's Avatar
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    I like their embedded flash videos, as seen in this series that I also particularly liked: Shoulder Savers Part I and Part II.

    Of course, I was forced to go buy $800 worth of SPIKE and HOT-ROX EXTREME due to the mind control exerted by the site. And then I did 6 million sets of cable curls for the pump, gained 2" on my arm in a week, ate 14lbs of fruit, and played naked twister with 6 Japanese school girls.

    The journal / I live here.

    If I were to start from scratch as a young 13 year old again, I would do every press, squat, and perhaps deadlifts, for my entire career with chains. -- Dan John

  16. #41
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian Crippler
    Ok, you're all right. T-Nation is the greatest site of all time. Great articles such as those stating you must have 600g of carbs from fruit, one recommending hang cleans off a block in a beginner program, and others recommending DB Flies and Overhead Cable Curls in a 5x5 program. Not to mention that program on specializing for delts, the one with something like 25-30 sets in one day done twice a week? Nice nice.

    I'm not going to waste more time on this. Ever since I've stopped trying all this "escalating density specialization V2" stuff that's all over Tnation I've made better gains than ever without caring close to as much (and guess what? I didn't even use Biotest products! OMG!!!)

    If you really still think T-nation is reputable, head over to Lyle's forum and ask the dudes there, who know A LOT more about training and diet than probably everyone who posted in this thread.
    You can not deny that they have some very experienced and smart coaches writing articles for the company. Unfortunately you will come across some stuff that is not that great. However for the most part I think the quality of the articles are very good.
    Maki Fit Blog

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    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

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  17. #42
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian Crippler
    Great articles such as those stating you must have 600g of carbs from fruit
    Can you provide a link to this article?
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  18. #43
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian Crippler
    Great articles such as those stating you must have 600g of carbs from fruit
    "Why would my meal be bad it it was, say, chicken breast and beans? It's not like you only get micronutrients from fruits or veggies."

    Oh... you must mean the beans that aren't vegetables... I've heard those are hard to find

    "Wow, this is ridiculous. How the hell are fruits (fructose) a better carb source than pasta or brown rice?"

    They're fibrous, they contain alot of vitamins and minerals, and fructose is an insulin-independent monosachharide.

    Ironically, there is an article on t-mag to address your lack of knowledge in this area: http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=462254

    one recommending hang cleans off a block in a beginner program, and others recommending DB Flies and Overhead Cable Curls in a 5x5 program. Not to mention that program on specializing for delts, the one with something like 25-30 sets in one day done twice a week? Nice nice.
    Find us links to match these claims. I guarantee that those sets/exercises fit into the program well, and that they look alot better with the rest of the routine.

    I'm not going to waste more time on this. Ever since I've stopped trying all this "escalating density specialization V2" stuff that's all over Tnation I've made better gains than ever without caring close to as much (and guess what? I didn't even use Biotest products! OMG!!!)
    You don't have to follow a specific program or buy a Biotest product to benefit from sound training and diet advice.

    If you really still think T-nation is reputable, head over to Lyle's forum and ask the dudes there, who know A LOT more about training and diet than probably everyone who posted in this thread.
    I guess you don't know how many t-nation writers Lyle collaborated and worked with too huh...

    Bottom line... you don't know much about what you're talking about, and you DEFINATELY don't know much about t-mag.com
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  19. #44
    Breaker of Skulls Guido's Avatar
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    I read T-mag for entertainment and inspiration. I get training advice and support here.

    With that said, I found this article on the "Man Rules" entertaining:
    http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1112725
    5'9" 195 lbs
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  20. #45
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    I like reading the Atomic Dog articles on T-Nation for inspiration and a laugh. I find nothing wrong with the articles that are printed on T-Nation. As always you must apply common sense or check the references of articles to see if the information is accurate and not a gross misrepresentation or the writer’s personal opinion.

    One thing I do dislike about T-Nation is how they push their supplements as the best in the business, and that no one could possibly top them.

  21. #46
    Senior Member smalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
    How many t-nation articles have you read? I haven't seen any like the 'Flex' and 'Musclemag' routines and articles you say they have. In fact, all of the writers on that site are quick to say that the tecnique or workout they are presenting is one of MANY that will work.

    Of course there's gonna be a few bad ones, but the wealth of solid training, diet, etc. information on that site allows the open minded to look beyond protein ads and whatnot...

    CC, I would love to see you attempt to pick apart another one of those articles seeing as how you failed miserably with some great diet advice. Do you know who you are calling out when you bunch the t-nation guys together as wrong like you did? Its not just Waterbury, Shugart, DJ, or the other few guys who's articles you've read there(who are all accomplished in their specific field)... its Thibeadeau, Poliquin, Ian King, Dave Tate, Eric Cressey, John Barardi, Mike Robertson, David Barr, and many more. No offense man, but you don't have anything on those guys... neither does anyone else here.
    Bro, do you lack the ability to argue a point without being emotionally effected. You seem personally offended by statements against an online mag and supplement company, I find that strange, and slightly sad. I'm pretty sure CC never stated he knew more about training or phyisiology than some of those writers. He stated, just like you did, that some of their articles are bad, he just did so in a more forcefull manner. But you agree with that basic argument so how about you argue valid points.

    BTW, my sister grew up with a kid who is currenlty working on a post-doctorate degree and is a guest writer for muscle and fitness. It doesnt mean that mag is reputable, or even that his articles are (I havent read any yet) Smart people write BS all the time for a number of reasons.
    Diet is key, the calorie is king

    "Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be."
    --Abraham Lincoln

    "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
    Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination
    alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'press on' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
    Calvin Coolidge (1872-1933)
    30th U.S. President

    "If you want to look abnormal you have to eat abnormal,lol."--ST

  22. #47
    Senior Member Meat_Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalls
    Bro, do you lack the ability to argue a point without being emotionally effected. You seem personally offended by statements against an online mag and supplement company, I find that strange, and slightly sad.
    lol don't worry, I'm not losing any sleep over this. Then again if someone calls out an informative website without knowing anything about it, I think that deserves correction.

    I'm pretty sure CC never stated he knew more about training or phyisiology than some of those writers. He stated, just like you did, that some of their articles are bad, he just did so in a more forcefull manner. But you agree with that basic argument so how about you argue valid points.
    You're right, he just popped in and said some of their articles suck and then I agreed with him... how do you get that from this quote:

    "WOW VERY INSPIRING.
    No. Just no.
    How can anyone like the crap that comes off that site? 90% of their articles are ridiculously stupid. Not to mention that there main boy, Shugart, doesn't even look like he's lifted a weight in his life.

    And how about the Biotest whores? OMG DIS PRODUCT IZ DA BEST THING EVAR!!!! These guys promote their products like it's the best thing since testosterone, meanwhile it's just a regular whey protein or a regular BCAA.

    There no better than MuscleTech and Flex. And by that I mean there articles and stupid and there products are overhyped and overpriced"

    He said the articles were ALL crap, and that only 10% weren't ridiculously stupid lol

    BTW, my sister grew up with a kid who is currenlty working on a post-doctorate degree and is a guest writer for muscle and fitness. It doesnt mean that mag is reputable, or even that his articles are (I havent read any yet) Smart people write BS all the time for a number of reasons.
    There is an enormous difference between musclemag and t-mag. If you'd spent anytime reading either, you would know that.
    Last edited by Meat_Head; 06-26-2006 at 01:36 PM.
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  23. #48
    Senior Member smalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx

    He said the articles were ALL crap, and that only 10% weren't ridiculously stupid lol



    There is an enormous difference between musclemag and t-mag. If you'd spent anytime reading either, you would know that.

    I've been reading t-mag since I discovered weightlifting and the fitness boards. And even in my newb status I could see the ******ation of many of their articles. The point was that the credentials of a single writer (or lack there of) do not ensure the validity of the website or magazine as a whole.

    There are some entertaining and inspiring articles, but if that is where you go to learn about training and diet then I think you missed the boat.
    Diet is key, the calorie is king

    "Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be."
    --Abraham Lincoln

    "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
    Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination
    alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'press on' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
    Calvin Coolidge (1872-1933)
    30th U.S. President

    "If you want to look abnormal you have to eat abnormal,lol."--ST

  24. #49
    Senior Member Canadian Crippler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xMeat_Headx
    "Wow, this is ridiculous. How the hell are fruits (fructose) a better carb source than pasta or brown rice?"

    They're fibrous, they contain alot of vitamins and minerals, and fructose is an insulin-independent monosachharide.

    Ironically, there is an article on t-mag to address your lack of knowledge in this area: http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=462254
    The article doesn't even address the points as to why fructose, in excess, can be bad. It's in Lyle's newsletter, I'll find it for you later since I gotta log off in 10 mins. However I'll tell you write now, if I got all my carb intake from fructose -- whether it's now or with the calories I was taking in when I just began -- my liver would be anything but happy. The recommendation that all carb intake aside from pre/post workout should be from fruits/veggies is insanely ridiculous. The idea isn't even plausible because I don't know anyone who can get in hundreds (in my case 800) grams of carbs from cucumber, bananas, and apples. If you honestly agree that eating pasta mid-day is detrimental to one's bodybuilding goals than you've got a lot of reading to do.

    Oh, and that link you posted recommend bananas and figs before bed to help "induce sleepyness".... wow. And you're telling me they don't post crap.

    Find us links to match these claims. I guarantee that those sets/exercises fit into the program well, and that they look alot better with the rest of the routine.
    All in the link you provided. It's a general 5x5 program... with a compound as 5x5 then some iso movement with 5x5. Actually the program has more iso movements than compound. Look at the first couple links in the link you gave me.


    You don't have to follow a specific program or buy a Biotest product to benefit from sound training and diet advice.
    According to T-nation you do. Again, I don't see how telling a new trainee that all he can eat carbwise is fruits/veggies, to do hang cleans off blocks, 5x5 DB Flies, and a whole other boatload of **** is "sound advice".

    Sound advice for a beginner is to eat lots of protein, get in good fats, limit refined sugars, and eat in a caloric deficit/surplus depending on the goal. Sound advice for a beginner is to get form down perfectly, then try and increase weight used over time. Sound advice for a beginner is to utilize compound movements to build a strong foundation.

    The **** posted on T-nation, promising newbies this and that through crazy "must do" methods is not sound advice.

    I guess you don't know how many t-nation writers Lyle collaborated and worked with too huh...
    You're right, Lyle loves T-nation

    Bottom line... you don't know much about what you're talking about, and you DEFINATELY don't know much about t-mag.com
    Lol, this is coming from the guy who simply copies and pastes EXACT words and sentences from T-nation articles in ALL of his arguments.
    "I added some db curls with the pink weights for a bit of a burn." - Rookiebldr

    "im assuming the holy (big) 3 are: curls, bench, legs?" - Saggas

    "had a huge ass burn on my triceps while I was doing those kickbacks, so they'll likely be staying with my exercise program." - Zearoth

    "most of my burned calories coming from something called Basal. Wtf does a leaf have to do with any of it?" - Votorx

    "We have a lot of people like that on our campus, all hippies and things, that go around preaching against corporations, jocks, preps, accountants, and anyone else that feels the need to shower more than occasionally." - Shankerr

    "Damn man why are some women just so demonic and evil.. its like you wanna get a stake and mallet and an erection at the same time." - WBBIRL

  25. #50
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    So again, where's this article that tells you to get 90% of your carbs from fruit?
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