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  1. #1
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Grip and Rack Pulls

    The ART guy I go to noticed that my left para spinal muscle is very developed compared to my right side. As a result I have some imbalances I have to fix. One of them being my piss poor grip that has caused this problem.

    I normally pull over under and this is why I have this problem now. He mentioned that I should drop the mixed grip and pull overhand. My deadlift has dropped about 100 pounds as a result.

    I've thrown in rack pulls using an overhand grip. Normally I pull with just chalk, no wraps or a belt (don't believe in using those aids). I just pulled a 405 for a single for 2 sets today with the pins being below the knees just above mid shin.

    My question is, what are you guys/gals rack pulling using an overhand grip with no aids (chalk included). I'd be interested in knowing what your weight is along with your pulling weight. It'll give me an idea of where I am and where I should be.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Maki Riddington; 09-05-2006 at 09:44 PM.
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    Senior Member Ironminded's Avatar
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    Mak-
    I currently weigh in at 225, my heaviest DL is 515 raw [no straps, wraps, belt or suit], I honestly havn't ever pulled that much in the rack. All the rack training I have ever done has been working on my grip, so I usually don't have sets any lower then 4 reps.

    Keep in mind though that I don't have any training or coaching behind me, and this was all after about three months of continual pulling. So your millage may vary.
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  3. #3
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironminded
    Mak-
    I currently weigh in at 225, my heaviest DL is 515 raw [no straps, wraps, belt or suit], I honestly havn't ever pulled that much in the rack. All the rack training I have ever done has been working on my grip, so I usually don't have sets any lower then 4 reps.

    Keep in mind though that I don't have any training or coaching behind me, and this was all after about three months of continual pulling. So your millage may vary.
    Wow, ok so I'm not using you as an example.
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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  4. #4
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    I'd be interested in hearing more about how the muscles on one side of your spine stabalize more than the other side based on your grip.

    I'm not sure what I could max with an overhand grip, but I do speed sets with 275 and find them very easy.
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    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    I'd be interested in hearing more about how the muscles on one side of your spine stabalize more than the other side based on your grip.
    :withstupi
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    HomeYield WillKuenzel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony
    I'd be interested in hearing more about how the muscles on one side of your spine stabalize more than the other side based on your grip.
    Unless the body is perfectly balanced all the way around, if you are using a mixed grip then you can very likely be pulling one way or the other. Ever seen guys deadlift and one side of the bar rotates away from them? They're pulling back on one side and the other side is just coming straight up.

    Somebody with a protracted shoulder girdle could have the same issues. One shoulder could be pulled forward slightly. That way changing the angle of the pull for that side and its counter-part. If one side has to pull back further than the other can you see where a muscle imbalance in the spine might occur?


    In saying that, Maki, have you looked into causes other than just the mixed grip? Shoulder mobility? Hip flexiblity? There could be other things causing it than just a mixed grip. Or was that what Anthony was getting at?
    Last edited by WillKuenzel; 09-08-2006 at 05:53 AM.
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    Senior Member McVein's Avatar
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    if i was to alternate grip every session..eg left under, right over one day..and switch it up the next day??? would that stop my muscles developing unevenly?
    Quote Originally Posted by Everyone View Post
    I agree with McVein

  8. #8
    Senior Member kad's Avatar
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    I use an over under grip as well. Left hand over, right hand under. I believe my left erector spinae muscle is more developed than my right one. Is this the same muscle you're talking about? I've also got a slight case of scoliosis, which may have led to the imbalance.

    I recently pulled a 365 deadlift at a bodyweight of 175, no aids. I don't have much experience with rack pulls, but when I was able to do them at the gym at home I was working with 315-335 for reps (at the same BW).

  9. #9
    HomeYield WillKuenzel's Avatar
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    I'm a bit odd in that I only pull sumo with an under/over grip. If I use an alternate grip for absolutely anything else I use an over/under. I hope through using either I've stayed relatively balanced. Its not really on purpose that I do it though but just more out of comfort.
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  10. #10
    General of Froot Soldiers TwiloMike's Avatar
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    Maki, do you consistently use the same over/under grip or do you vary it? I make sure to vary my over/under from set to set.
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  11. #11
    There may be hope yet. JustinASU's Avatar
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    I use the same over/under grip for every pull (unless I'm doing RDLs). I haven't seen any imbalances because of it.
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  12. #12
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustinASU
    I use the same over/under grip for every pull (unless I'm doing RDLs). I haven't seen any imbalances because of it.
    That's the problem. You can't see this imbalance.

    For those of you who have asked, no I do not switch my grip up. I always pull using a left underhand grip and a right overhand grip.
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    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  13. #13
    Iron4Life
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maki Riddington
    My question is, what are you guys/gals rack pulling using an overhand grip with no aids (chalk included). I'd be interested in knowing what your weight is along with your pulling weight. It'll give me an idea of where I am and where I should be.
    Maki.. you are getting responses all over the place.. let me see if I can answer your specific research questions.. although my totals are far below yours.. and I also have a real grip problem.

    Raw DL - no straps, belts, chalk = 395 x 2 or 335x7 (mixed grip)
    Raw DL = 335 x 2 (overhand grips) or 275 x 5
    Raw Rack - 6 inches high = 425 x 2 (mixed grip)
    Raw Rack - 6 inches = 345 x 2 (overhand grip)
    Rack Rack - 10 inches = 455 x 2 (mixed grip)
    Rack rack - 10 inches = 355 x 2 (overhand grip)

  14. #14
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bearwolf
    Maki.. you are getting responses all over the place.. let me see if I can answer your specific research questions.. although my totals are far below yours.. and I also have a real grip problem.

    Raw DL - no straps, belts, chalk = 395 x 2 or 335x7 (mixed grip)
    Raw DL = 335 x 2 (overhand grips) or 275 x 5
    Raw Rack - 6 inches high = 425 x 2 (mixed grip)
    Raw Rack - 6 inches = 345 x 2 (overhand grip)
    Rack Rack - 10 inches = 455 x 2 (mixed grip)
    Rack rack - 10 inches = 355 x 2 (overhand grip)

    The rack pulls that are overhand, are you using chalk?
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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  15. #15
    Iron4Life
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maki Riddington
    The rack pulls that are overhand, are you using chalk?
    Nope.. my gym doesn't allow chalk.. so it's totally Raw...

  16. #16
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    Overhand, no chalk, all the way baby!

    I've never seen any sense in using a mixed grip for anything. I know it helps with the lift and you can lift more. But in your case it seems to put up an imbalance which I know can really suck.

    -josh

    ps - Maki, your articles rule btw.
    Last edited by af92; 09-06-2006 at 07:28 PM.

  17. #17
    Breaker of Skulls Guido's Avatar
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    I use mixed grip whenever I deadlift anything over 315, so I'm not sure what my max double-overhand grip is. The sets I do of 315 on, say, straight-legged deads, or on my lighter regular dead sets seem pretty easy, though my grip does start to fatigue after, say, 5 reps. I could probably pull 405 double overhand for one if I had to guess, though my mixed-grip max is 515. That's a pretty significant difference.
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    There may be hope yet. JustinASU's Avatar
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    I'll add that my bodyweight is 240 at the moment. I can pull about 550 mixed grip from the floor right now, but I doubt I could get much higher than 455-470 double overhand.
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    Senior Member McVein's Avatar
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    is it ok to switch your mixed grip between sessions...?? will that help?
    Quote Originally Posted by Everyone View Post
    I agree with McVein

  20. #20
    Iron4Life
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    Quote Originally Posted by McVein
    is it ok to switch your mixed grip between sessions...?? will that help?
    Sure.. it's OK to change your grip ALL the time.
    I usually do my "light" sets with Overhand grip...
    and then once I get where I'm droping the weight b/c of grip instead of my back being tired (usually around 75%).. I switch to mixed grip.
    And then I switch the mix grip every set...
    although my strongest grip is left-over w/ right-under...
    I think the alternating mix keeps the side balanced...

    But when I'm going for a PR, then I go with the stronger grip.. while the warmup sets are the other mix.

  21. #21
    Banned bjohnso's Avatar
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    I deadlifted 405 off the floor with an overhand grip with no aids (not even chalk). At the time I believe I weighed about 210-220. I've also felt that the mixed grip affects the development of the spinal muscles differently. I think from now on I will use an overhand grip, even if it means having to pull light-ish weights while my grip develops better.

  22. #22
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Great comments.

    In several weeks I will go back to pulling overhand from the floor. I hope to get up to 455 at a bodyweight of 195. That is with no chalk, belt and doing so using a overhand grip.
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    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

  23. #23
    Risk10k Clifford Gillmore's Avatar
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    I've done 380 x 10 at knee height with Double Overhand, and nearly 500 with a 3"ish rom. I'm simply weak with speed.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maki Riddington
    My question is, what are you guys/gals rack pulling using an overhand grip with no aids (chalk included). I'd be interested in knowing what your weight is along with your pulling weight. It'll give me an idea of where I am and where I should be.

    Thanks.
    I don't know about rack pulls because I always use a mixed grip or straps with it, but I have pulled 480 with a mixed grip and I think my best with an overhand grip was around 350. I weigh 195-200 usually.
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  25. #25
    Proud Father Maki Riddington's Avatar
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    Homey,

    Hip flexibility is very poor. I know that I have other areas I need to work on releasing. Mobility in various areas are very poor due to tight muscles.
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    "Soli Deo Gloria"
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good.": 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
    Romans 7:14-25

    "Judo is not about strength. Yet in the learning curve, all Judokas get strong. Only with time do you learn where to apply that strength."
    The Art of Judo

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