You have NO CLUE what you are talking about. I don't think "Fat makes you fat" I just don't think it as nearly as important of a macronutrient as carbs and proteins are for maintaining muscle mass during a cut. I've done many-many different styles of cutting from CKD, to the 40/30/30, to the low fat approach. I have to say I've had the best results from the low fat approach,...quicker fat loss,...retained more muscle mass,...had much more energy during workouts,...and I was still getting the same amount of hard on's I was on the other diets lol. Hope you understand now?Originally Posted by douglasmolina
Hmm hard-ons are important.. lol
The diet seems to be going good.. staying between 2000-2400 and doing daily cardio.
Im thinking on monday ill start WBB routine 1.. That sound ok?
On tuesday ill post with the wieght ive lost. Thanks agian guys
al3x One more q. how do you make it public?
I'd say try to get at least 10x your bodyweight in cals. Cardio keep to 3 days a week, and make sure to do your lifting. That is the most important part, or you just become a smaller fat person basically.Originally Posted by Par58
During a cut, you need to do two things:Originally Posted by CrazyK
1. Drop calories so you drop weight
2. Somehow convince your body to maintain LBM
Dropping calories is a LOT more comfortable with higher fat than it is with lower fat - for a lot of us, particularly us former (or current) fatties, carbs make us hungry, where fats are satiating, keeping insulin levels under control.
Combine this with the fact that protein and fat ARE essential micronutrients, while carbohydrate is not, it's easy to see how basing your diet around minimum targets for protein and fat as LBM-dependent dosings makes a LOT better sense than trying the low-fat route.
That being said, if you yourself are more comfortable cutting on higher carbs, by all means do so.
But this strategy is neither particularly beneficial nor particularly comfortable for many dieters.
I respectfully disagree. Carbohydrates are a much more efficient fuel source than fats during sternuous activities such as weight training, sprints, etc... Given the majority of us here are cutting while weight training I'd say that it would be a very important macro. Satiating your self can be found in an array of salads. A bowl of Salad with some non-fat cottage will keep most dieters satisfied for an extended period of time. Whilst giving room in their diet to keep cals under maintenince, but carbs high around their workouts. Don't only look at the science though (too many studies to count that shows low-fat works), but look at some real life examples. I train in a gym that has two pro bb's, and my trainer himself competed in the Mr. Universe contest. All will tell you this is the way to go.Originally Posted by Built
They're all assisted.Originally Posted by CrazyK
Berardi would disagree with you. So would Lyle McDonald.
And if I had to cut on high carbs, I'd want to kill myself.
Bottom line, do what makes you feel comfortable. But higher fats make a lot more sense on a cut than higher carbs, for any of a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that carbs are not essential, while protein and fat are not only essential, but muscle sparing.
I agree with doing what you're comfy with,...but carbs aren't muscle sparing, nor essential? Try taking a math test on low carbs before ketosis. You'll find yourself borderline ******ed. Also keep in mind that you'll be getting enough fat from your diet, you don't need that much to support test production and keep a healthy heart.Originally Posted by Built
Congrats. I couldn't do it with out my carbs hahaOriginally Posted by Built
You probably tried to do it low fat.
Low fat, low carb is NASTY.
Low carb, moderately high protein and fat is very comfortable. And I'm not saying NO carb - for example, I'm carb cycling right now. "high" and "low" carb days.
114 lbs LBM, currently 133 lbs. Maintenance cals for me are around 2200.
This was today (rest day):
M1: egg whites and yolk, pat of butter
M2: part of chicken, green beans, pb and butter melted and drizzled ove it
M3: tuna mixed with cc, avocado, pepper, salad dressing
M4: steak, broccoli, butter
M5: rest of the chicken, couple slices of cucumber
M6: rest of the cottage cheese, half an apple, walnuts.
This was yesterday (training day):
M1: egg whites and yolk, pat of butter, half the sweet potato, apricot jam
<train, sip dextrose and whey>
M2: part of chicken, rest of the sweet potato,
M3: protein waffle, cottage cheese, half peach, half the berries, half the nuts
M4:romaine, avocado, part of chicken, red pepper, salad dressing, cucumber
M5:rest of cottage cheese, rest of the fruit, rest of the nuts
M6: last of the chicken, green beans, peanut butter with a dab of butter, melted and drizzled over beans
Low fat, higher carb works great when your insulin sensitivity is good - with AAS, your partitioning is increased, and your endocrine system is injected.
For most folks who have been fat for a while, our insulin sensitivity is compromised. In these cases, lower carbs, higher fats are extremely helpful. Since carbs are better utilized during the post workout window, we target them around this time, leaving them off where they aren't needed so insulin isn't kept high at other times.
I agree with you in some stances. A lot of carbs around your workout being one of them. What I follow is a Low Fat, Moderate Carb, High Protein diet. I was a former fatty, and it has worked very well for me.
Insulin,...keep your carbs low-gi besides post workout and you should be fine. Foods like Oats won't have a high insulin response, and will take you a while to digest. Certainly enough time to keep yourself satisfied for 3-4 hours until your next meal. On your off days, skip the post workout shake and you automatically "carb cycled". Add to that plenty of greens and you have yourself a great low fat diet free from the hunger pains.
On the other hand, you can lose fat on any diet that is high enough in protein, and keeps you below maintenince. All this other stuff is nitpicky.
Last edited by CrazyK; 09-18-2006 at 02:16 PM.
I got an engineering degree while in ketosis. Fun stuff.
I've found everything Built has said to be true. Now that I am leaner, hunger is more of an issue and raising fat works better then ever. Instead of a cup of oats+scoop of protein for breakfast, 1/2 cup oats, 1/2 tbps of olive oil, scoop of whey is far more filling and hunger friendly.
Glad that worked for you.Originally Posted by CrazyK
Great to get it under control.
Tried that. I was on "no white anything" and I ended up on Metformin.Originally Posted by CrazyK
Felt like garbage.
Went into ketosis for almost a year, dropped a bunch of weight, and stopped getting migraines. So far, permanently.
Oh, and got off the type II diabetes meds.
No - YOU have YOURSELF a low fat diet free from hunger pains. I eat oatmeal and I'm freakishly hungry until I have a fatty, protein-rich meal.Originally Posted by CrazyK
It has to work for you.Originally Posted by CrazyK
Something you may not realize is that women are more insulin resistant than men, and this is from before we're born. Many of us may diet better on a lower carb, higher fat paradigm.
While in ketosis...to get yourself in that you have to go very low carb, about sub 30g...Also no one ever said you can't get lean off of a diet that is moderate/high in fats, it is just what is more efficient at mainitaining muscle mass and fueling your workouts.Originally Posted by Unreal
Have you read any of McDonald's or Berardi's stuff?Originally Posted by CrazyK
And have you seen how much muscle I have on my female, unassisted middle-aged body?
I was lucky to eat 20g of carbs a day for over a year. Lost 75+lbs, and never had issues at school or thinking.Originally Posted by CrazyK
I had no trouble in deep ketosis either - quite the opposite, in fact. After that initial three days when I was "switching fuel tanks", my thinking was clear, my concentration improved, energy level went and stayed up.Originally Posted by Unreal
It was a nice change from being hungry all the time, while gaining weight!
While I agree that carbs around your workout are beneficial to take advantage of the anabolic window (increased favourable partition, and increased nutriens to the muscles), they (carbs) are not better or worse at maintaining muscle mass on a cut. As long as you are getting enough proteins, fats, and calories you can maintain muscle while on a cut with any amount of carbs you choose to use.Originally Posted by CrazyK
Move heavy weight, eat, sleep, repeat.
Geniuses make complicated scenarios simple, morons take simple concepts and complicate them.
Yeah - it doesn't sound right to me either, douglas - furthermore, I could SWEAR I've read that ketosis is muscle-sparing provided protein is sufficient. (and I think fat was mentioned too, but I can't remember for sure).Originally Posted by douglasmolina
Eek you guys didn't understand what I was saying. Your brain can work fine in ketosis, which is what I was saying. The diet Built posted as a sample will not get you in ketosis. You'll just be low carbing, but not low enough to get in ketosis. This would cause me and a lot of people problems having enough energy to workout. Protein the building block of muscle, and carbs are the man power behind it. Fats will help your heart some and keep hormone levels in line, you don't need a ton of it to complete those goals. Which is the point I've been trying to get across.
PS- Yes I have read Lyle's and Berardi's tips and diet plans. Lyle's is a fancy CKD, which I did actually try. Worked well, but it was hell in the gym and I got the same results over a 12 week span that I did with the fat loss approach I'm taking now....Berardi is a supplement salesman, and that's all I'll say about that lol. Anyone can tell you to eat below maintenince and you'll lose weight.
Last edited by CrazyK; 09-18-2006 at 03:14 PM.
Honey, I was an overweight adult for twenty YEARS.Originally Posted by CrazyK
I lost the weight with Atkins, while lifting.
I put on muscle that first year, most of the time on 30-50g of carb a day.
I no longer live in ketosis. But that first year in on low carb, I was in ketosis most of the time, and it was the first time in my life I ever felt normal.
I don't know WHAT outdated text book you're reading, but you've got some catching up to do.
I see you edited your post ...
Berardi has a PhD in his field, and McDonald is the undisputed grand master of ketogenic dieting. You are basing your opinion on what works for assisted male bodybuilders.
I'd like you to give me some peer-reviewed evidence of what you suggest.
Nobody is suggesting ketosis is ideal for muscle gain - and I wasn't suggesting to the OP that he go into ketosis for that matter. But for muscle RETENTION on a cut, and for hunger control, at least for many of us fatties, a low-fat, high-carb diet is not your friend - for those purposes, protein and fat are the undisputed winners.
Same as her, except for being a fat female. Was overweight fat male for 20+ years. Did a low carb keto diet for a year, lost tons of weight, made good muscle gains, and got the weight off. Now I do notice as I'm leaner and have more muscle it is harder to do low carb. Now I do feel it in my training, but while I was fat I never felt flat working out on low carbs.Originally Posted by Built
You were eating at under maintenince while lifting and keeping your protein high. No wonder you transformed your body, congrats.
No outdated textbooks here, experience, other peoples experience, and science will tell the tale. Which has all pointed to the stance I've came to today.